Procylon's Call to Power Project

[Decimatus]

I have a disadvantage: It would take too long to get it ready. I want to play now

Heh. Actually it wouldn't take as long as designing new eras that have all the limitations of the vanilla tree.

Theoretically, I would just have to add a TechCat line to the techs, update their grid coordinates to suit their new home, and take a fresh look at the prereqs to suit the new open system.

I also have to get the extra pages to work. I am practically one step away from getting it fixed, and FiresForever is going to take a look at it and see if he can fix the missing piece.

In the meantime, I am coming up with the concepts for the sub-policies for the government trees that I will implement sometime in the next month or so. I will update the OP with that once I have finished fleshing it out a bit.

For those who don't want the multi-page tech system, perhaps you can do a CCMAT type thing, allowing players to disable it whenever. I personally am VERY much looking forward to it. I feel like it would lead to more specification, instead of the standard "What seems interesting right now" or the more problematic "How can I beeline to x tech?" I say go for it.

I think this ties directly in with your disadvantage, and then some. This is going to be way too complicated to manage 2 sets of completely different tech tree setups.

It will definitely be easier managing beelines. Currently I only have so much room for prereq pipes to stop beelines, but with multiple pages I would have more options for realistic prereqs that would put roadblocks in front of the beelines.

 

[Decimatus]

So while waiting for some tech pages support, I have been working on conceptualizing the governments system and have made pretty good progress.

The first set of policy changes will include 10 governments. Each government, at it's base level(the branch itself), will include a range of improvements to 8 aspects of your civilization(with perhaps more than 8 later). This is in addition to the 5 policies that exist in the branch of course. We will consider the time before you choose a government to be baseline tyranny/despotism/chiefdom.

Lets see if I can get a chart working somewhat:

---------- Growth---Production---Commerce---Research---Economy---Military---Loyalty---Martial Law
Monarchy-- Slow---- Low---------Medium------Low--------Low-------High---Indifferent-Moderate
Theocracy-Average--Low----------High--------Low---------Medium---Medium------Loyal----Relaxed
Republic---Average--Medium-------Low--------Medium------Low-------Medium--Indifferent-Relaxed
Democracy-Fast-----Low----------Medium-----High---------Medium----Low-----Loyal------None
Fascism---Slow------High---------Low---------Low---------Low-------V. High--Fanatical--Strict
Communism-Average-V. High-------High--------Low---------Low-------V. High--Passionate--Moderate
Corporate--Fast-----High----------High--------High---------Rich-------Medium--Loyal------None
Technocracy-Average-High---------V. High-----V. High------Medium----High-----Loyal------Relaxed
Ecotopia---V. Fast---Medium-------High--------High---------High------Medium--Passionate--None
V. Democracy-Fast---High---------V. High........V. High-------Rich------Low-----Loyal-------None

Key:

1 Growth- Slow= +0, Average= +5 Food to farms, Fast= +10 and +15% food production, Very Fast= +20 and +30%
2 Production- Low= +0, Medium= +5 Production to mines/mills, High= +10 and +15% production, Very High= +20 and +30%.
3 Commerce- Low= +0, Medium= +5 Gold to posts/plantations/pastures/boats/quarry, High= +15, Very High= +30.
4 Research- Low= +0, Medium= +10% Research, High= +20%, Very High= +40%
5 Economy- Low= +0, Medium= +15% Gold generation, High= +30%, V. High= +60%
6 Military- Low= +0, Medium= +15% Great General / -15% Unit Maintenance, High= +30% / -30%, Very High= +50% / -50%
7 Loyalty- Indifferent= -0, Loyal= -15% Unhappiness from Population, Passionate= -30%, Fanatical= -50%
8 Martial Law- None= +0, Relaxed= +2 Happiness from Garrison, Moderate= +5, Strict= +10.

The general feel of this chart is almost the same as CtP. The values, due to different mechanics are different. They are also subject to broad changes after some good testing.

Also, this chart may be added to at some point, if some worthwhile mechanics present themselves. Perhaps military, building, and wonder construction bonuses. Definitely a culture column at some point.

Also, each of these governments is going to have the standard 5 policies in the branch. The policies may enhance certain aspects the government is already good at, enhance weaknesses of the government, or it may add new aspects that the core government has not addressed.

As you can see, things are going to change quite a bit once this is implemented, with more balancing focusing around expected government changing periods. A separate tech page for governments will be created and you will have to learn the government tech before you can adopt the government. The order in the chart is the same as they will be researched.


This chart will be added to the original post.

Let me know what you think.

 

[ikillu64]

For the governments, maybe you could also add something that modifies how civs with a different government than you, like or not like you. For example, a civ with a communism government gets a bad reputation versus a civ with democracy or republic. Also, you should add another government, Utopia. You get Utopia for making the Utopia Project. It has the highest on everything. Just for fun after you win the game.

 

[Decimatus]

For the governments, maybe you could also add something that modifies how civs with a different government than you, like or not like you. For example, a civ with a communism government gets a bad reputation versus a civ with democracy or republic. Also, you should add another government, Utopia. You get Utopia for making the Utopia Project. It has the highest on everything. Just for fun after you win the game.

There isn't a schema for diplomacy in the policy tables but I like the idea and may be able to implement it some day.

Maybe a Socialist Utopia to represent the star trek like government that is only possible with replicator technology and limitless amounts of energy.

Limited to 10 branches per social policy page(which fits nicely with CtP governments), but once I get the extra policy pages mod and do some other things with it, I may add a second page of governments.

Could be fun to add some hyper specialized governments that are low in some areas but very high or super high in other key areas.

 

[chrome-rome]

Just thought of something: If buildings will use a per pop system, how will that remain balanced while the ai have consistenly lower pop than the human player?

 

[Yanikin_Tinkard]

I am considering going a little further with the optional tech pages than I had planned.

Originally, I was just going to have non-essential, bonus-like tech in the extra pages.

However, after further thought, I am leaning towards diversifying the entire tech tree into a dozen or so pages. For those of you who have played CtP, this would be very similar to the CtP tech map minus having it all on one page.

Advantages:

- Very similar to CtP's tech tree/map.
- Much more room to pull off realistic and/or interesting tech paths, due to less tech and pipe clutter.
- Prereqs can cross pages without leaving pipe clutter.
- Less problems with broken tech pipes that have resulted in less than optimal tech placement.
- More room to place certain techs ahead or behind other techs. Currently limited to 10 techs per column, but this limitation would be all but removed.
- More room for future tech expansion.
- Easier to modify techs, placement, and prereq's without messing up half the tech tree.
- Room for optional techs to dead-end near to the tech they originate from.
- Each page would be filled with logically similar technologies. Engineering page for engineering related technologies, Religion page, Government page, Warfare pages, etc.

Disadvantages:

- Many cases you would have to read the tech help popup to find prereq info coming from other pages. At least until you learn the tree after playing a few times
- A dozen+ pages of tech tree(though each less cluttered than the current tree), could be annoying for some.
- Perhaps more disadvantages that I can't think of right now...



Let me know what you guys think. Especially any disadvantages that I haven't thought of.

I like this, and like the multiple pages. If you want to limit confusion, I could make you a flow chart in say visio. This one would just be the tech tree, but in its entirerty. If there are page numbers, I could add which page the tech is on. I am unsure that it will be any less confusing than someone first sitting down anyway.

For the governments, maybe you could also add something that modifies how civs with a different government than you, like or not like you. For example, a civ with a communism government gets a bad reputation versus a civ with democracy or republic. Also, you should add another government, Utopia. You get Utopia for making the Utopia Project. It has the highest on everything. Just for fun after you win the game.

Whil I wouldn't want it to be a goverment for before the game is won, I do think it might be fun to have that for after the utopia project because you would have won. Kinda like an easter egg for "One More Turn" people.

 

[Decimatus]

Just thought of something: If buildings will use a per pop system, how will that remain balanced while the ai have consistenly lower pop than the human player?

We even up the populations.

From what I hear, that Human to AI pop ratio is getting closer, so that is good news. If I have to, I will give the AI some growth handicaps for good measure.

I like this, and like the multiple pages. If you want to limit confusion, I could make you a flow chart in say visio. This one would just be the tech tree, but in its entirerty. If there are page numbers, I could add which page the tech is on. I am unsure that it will be any less confusing than someone first sitting down anyway.

A visio chart would rock. But don't do one until I am certain that the tree is mostly finished. Probably months from now. I would hate for you to have to redo it if/when I completely revamp the tree again.

I will attach an example of the CtP2 tech map. Should give you and everyone else a good idea of how CtP was and what the new tech system in this mod will resemble.

 

[Buddha2723]

---------- Growth---Production---Commerce---Research---Economy---Military---Loyalty---Martial Law
Democracy-Fast-----Low----------Medium-----High---------Medium----Low-----Loyal------None
Corporate--Fast-----High----------High--------High---------Rich-------Medium--Loyal------None

Overall very good. There is no trade down going from Democracy to Corporate. It seems like definitely loyalty, and probably military would be at least a grade lower. I realize you may want future governments to be obvious choices, but it seems unlikely to me there won't be a tradeoff somewhere(Democracy being the worst form of govt, except for all others we've tried). In particular, maybe a negative bonus to growth(around 10-20%) for technocracy(because less physical interaction, plus perfected birth control), negative military or martial law for v. democracy, maybe negative research for ecotopia(If you've reached ecotopia, why bother researching new ways? You've already achieved perfection!).

Man am I looking forward to tinkering with these new policies! Great addition.

 

[Decimatus]

Overall very good. There is no trade down going from Democracy to Corporate. It seems like definitely loyalty, and probably military would be at least a grade lower. I realize you may want future governments to be obvious choices, but it seems unlikely to me there won't be a tradeoff somewhere(Democracy being the worst form of govt, except for all others we've tried). In particular, maybe a negative bonus to growth(around 10-20%) for technocracy(because less physical interaction, plus perfected birth control), negative military or martial law for v. democracy, maybe negative research for ecotopia(If you've reached ecotopia, why bother researching new ways? You've already achieved perfection!).

Man am I looking forward to tinkering with these new policies! Great addition.

I can see upgrading Loyalty to Passionate on Democracy. Possibly even lowering growth to average on corporate.

I can see the technocracy argument, though with Beef Vats just around the corner it won't matter so much from that point of view. Arcologies, Fusion Power, and Beef Vats pretty much mean unlimited population as far as the technocrats are concerned.

I doubt I will go into the negatives for V. Dem, simply because I may add unit production bonuses to the rest, or as a separate column. Having 0 when the Fascists, Communists, and Technocrats have +30-50% will be serious enough as it is.

Also, the Ecotopia will want to use science to protect the environment even further, and given some of the sub policies, it makes more sense to have high science on them.


If I input these governments anytime soon, it will be as a replacement for the current 10 policies, and you will only be able to choose 1 government. Just as a warning.

But when FiresForever publishes the social pages mod, I will add more pages to choose from on various subjects.

 

[Buddha2723]

I see what you are saying. I do really like the idea of peaceful govt types like ecotopia and v. democracy having negative happiness for military units stationed inside cities. Even in America, far from an anti-military country, most barracks and forts are outside of major cities, and troops deploy inside cities only in emergencies.

Edit* You also mentioned you would introduce a culture category. This may be the place to nerf ecotopia and (edit 2*technocracy) vs the other govt types, as one will view nature as the highest culture, and the other technology and logic, rather than promoting artists and individual expression, like democracy and republic would.

 

[Decimatus]

I see what you are saying. I do really like the idea of peaceful govt types like ecotopia and v. democracy having negative happiness for military units stationed inside cities. Even in America, far from an anti-military country, most barracks and forts are outside of major cities, and troops deploy inside cities only in emergencies.

When I think of martial law, I think of the unit actually patrolling streets or enforcing curfews. So, in V. Democracy that doesn't really happen, but in Fascism it would. Regardless of where the unit is actually stationed. Most bases are outside cities anyway, just for the sheer size of them. The smallest military base I have seen was at least 1-2 miles in diameter, and many are much more than that(especially if they have an airfield). I don't count national guard or reserve detachments of course.

A cool idea would be to create a system where certain other policy branch choices could have certain other effects on your government. So, if you choose autocracy while in a V. Democracy, you would take all kinds of hits on happiness, but perhaps gain other benefits such as military and production. Or you could take Elections as a Communism and take hits to military and production while increasing happiness, culture, etc.

It isn't possible using straight xml, but I think it wouldn't be too difficult to relate the policies beyond the lockouts using lua. Just need to find someone who can do it and thinks that system would be worth their effort. Maybe I can convince FiresForever to add it as part of the policy pages mod.

Edit* You also mentioned you would introduce a culture category. This may be the place to nerf ecotopia and v. democracy vs the other govt types, as one will view nature as the highest culture, and the other technology and logic, rather than promoting artists and individual expression, like democracy and republic would.

V. Democracy would be Very High on the culture bar, as it is the ultimate free society. Ecotopia could be average or low, most dictatorships average or low, some others maybe high, the rest average.

 

[Decimatus]

The multi-tech page mod is now implemented, and techs have been diversified. Everyone thank FiresForever for making the tech pages mod and ironing out the conflicts between it and CtP Project.

To facilitate ease of navigation through the new system, I am adding a 3 letter designation to each Tech Category, which will also be attached to the name of the tech that falls under it.

For instance, Engineering(ENG), is a category. (ENG) will be affixed to the end of the names of all techs that fall under that page, such as Mining(ENG).

When you mouse over a tech, it will show you all the techs that it leads to, with their accompanying 3 letter designation letting you know which page to look to find them.

Unfortunately, there is currently no simple method for showing what techs lead to a tech you are looking at. Of course, you can still select the tech and the computer will Queue for research all the techs that lead to it.

Later tonight, once I finish adding the 3 letter designations, I will upload the initial V9 to source forge for testing. This will include the yield changes, various other small additions and fixes, and of course the tech pages. Don't worry about how messy and broken the tech lines seem in the pages. There are currently no dead-ends in the tech tree. It just means that I now have room to input some techs that couldn't make it in before. Holes will be plugged, and many gaps will be bridged(though not all). And there are a few categories that are quite empty right now. That will be addressed in time.

Lastly, there are now some LUA files in this mod, as well as the commonly used InGame.xml. This means that some mods that did not conflict before, may begin doing so.

 

[Decimatus]

V9 is on the Forge.

 

[Decimatus]

The food box isn't handling the new food values very well, so expect a big early capital if you don't watch it. I just updloaded a new V9 with some slightly tweaked growth values that should slow it down a bit.

Also, I have made some refinements to the research rate.

Let me know how it is working for you guys and maybe I will try and tweak it a bit more tomorrow night.

 

[FredMB]

V9 is on the Forge.

Damn D, you're uploading new versions faster than it takes us to test the previous ones!

I finished my playthrough with disabled specialists, on Emperor it was something else. The AI's growth bonus really came through on this one, all the AI cities were larger than mine in the beginning, until the AI's trading post spamming caught up with them much later in the game. In the early game the AIs had roughly double my population, giving them a huge science and production boost. All I could do was make Spearmen and Horsemen to try to stay alive. Egypt was in the game and since they were the biggest Civ they were grabbing all the Wonders, bastards. The AI happiness bonus was also huge, most of my cities were on production to prevent happiness from going below -10 and their cities were still growing like weed. The AI was also building infrastructure, most of the cities I captured had more buildings them my capital in them, nice.

As predicted it made the early game very difficult. It was practically permanent war for the first half of the game. War was more realistic this time around, the nations involved would lose of their armies trying to take a couple of cities, and this would leave you open to attacks from other Civs that were waiting for the opportunity. I teamed up with Egypt against Japan and I got all the Japanese cities except one. Funny thing is I only conquered two and Japan gave up three more negotiating for peace. This was a mistake as it angered Egypt and they attacked me next. We lost most of our armies there, so much that even China attacked Egypt afterward. At some point Egypt was at war against all other nations which was their downfall.

Did you tweak the expansion flavors for this Mod? I noticed that as soon as the map is filled the AI will start attacking City States and weaker nations to gain more land. Even India does it. Maybe it's because they build incredibly large armies and feel the need to use the units, I don't know.

So all that being said less specialists results in much larger AI cities which I think is good right now. You still get great people from wonders so not all is lost. To compensate you could also make National Wonders generate great people as well. As a temporary fix for the trading post spamming maybe you could make their yield closer to farms? The AI wouldn't know any different but would end up with bigger cities in the late game.

 

[Buddha2723]

V. Democracy would be Very High on the culture bar, as it is the ultimate free society. Ecotopia could be average or low, most dictatorships average or low, some others maybe high, the rest average.

Whoops, meant technocracy, not v democracy. V. Democracy already has weaker military values than many early govts. I think Technocracy and Ecotopia would be as bad as fascism culturally.

 

[chrome-rome]

@ Fred: Where do you put the line to change the number of specialist slots? I really want to try it after reading your report.

@ Decimatus

Just started a new game with v9 and a few minor things stand out.

1) Lake tiles are 11 food. Not sure if that was intentional or not, but I think it should be 15.
2) In the very begining, the monument cost less than a warrior, scout, or worker. The settler cost about half that of the scout (not exact but you get the idea). Again, not sure if this is intentional.

And then for something unrelated to just this version specifically, I have always felt as though the wheat bonus is lacking. I was thinking that making the farm improvement should add more than just the standard amount of food. For example, an iron hex gains more production from the mine improvement than a normal hill does. I just think it should be the same way with wheat.

Like I said, I only just started, but so far I am liking the changes. It just feels more intuitive.

EDIT
Warning: Wall of text follows

Spoiler :

So after playing around a little more I have additional things to report. I played on hugh, 8 civs, 16 CS, emperor. I had met two of the seven other civs.

1) I'll start with terrain yields (note: I don't play with desert, tundra, or mountains)
The old yields may be exactly as you want them, in which case please disregard the tables below.

P=Plains G=Grassland F=Forest J=Jungle R=River M=Marsh H=Hills

Food-Production-Gold=Total Combined Yield

P: 10-10-5=25
PH: 10-20-5 (additional ten production w/out food reduction)=35
G: 15-5-5=25
GH: 15-15-5 (same prob as PH)=35
FP/G/H: 10-5-10=25
RP: 15-15-10=40
RPH: 15-25-10=50
RG: 20-10-10=40
RGH: 20-20-10=50
RFP/G/H: 15-10-15=40
JP/H: 15-20-10=45
RJP/H: 20-25-15=60
MG: 20-10-10=40
RMG: 25-15-15=55

So this makes flatlands worst than hills, marsh better than no marsh, and jungle much better than no jungle. Again, not sure if this was intentional. If it wasn't, I would increase the food of flatlands by 10 for both G & P, increase production of forest by 10, decrease production of jungle by 10, and decrease food and production of marsh by 10 and 5 respectively, and increase gold by 10.

For the jungle, I don't think it should have more food than flatlands (which already have enough), but it does have wood, so the production should stay the same (slightly less than forest). The gold was just what was left over to make the total equal 35. For the marsh, food and production shouldn't be too easy to come by. I left 5 production there just for the bonus that comes from golden ages. Again, the gold is just left over.

I just think that every tile should be equal, but have different specializations. This is assuming that every yield (food/production/gold) is equal.

These changes would make:

P: 20-10-5=35
PH: 10-20-5=35
G: 25-5-5=35
GH:15-15-5=35
FP/G/H: 10-15-10=35
RP: 25-15-10=50
RPH: 15-25-10=50
RG: 30-10-10=50
RGH: 20-20-10=50
RFP/G/H: 15-20-15=50
JP/H: 15-10-10=35
RJP/H: 20-15-15=50
MG: 10-5-20=35
RMG: 15-10-25=50

Granted, I didn't factor in water tiles while doing this, so I don't know how it balances. However, I always felt water tiles were really strong in this mod anyways, as they had 6-1-3 by the time the cities had harbors, and were even better with seaports, so maybe these changes put them more in balance.

I also didn't factor in any improvements (and improvements upon these improvements with any techs) or techs/buildings improving the yields of certain tiles.

2) Another problem was that my cities were growing extremely fast. I had to purchase tiles to prevent my cities using citizens. By the time it hit the clasical era, my capitol was around 35 pop (granted it was a coastal city with two fish, lots of rivers, and the tradition tree bonus). Perhaps you could tweek the city growth box to slow down the growth.

This growth sparked a few more problems. My cities were outgrowing the culture, so I had to frequently purchase new tiles (which were extrodianarily cheap as compared to the yields). Again, a little tweak to the culture box would be helpful. Another issue came from the city strength; my capitol had 22 defense, which was more than enough for the next two eras at least. I was also getting techs at a crazy pace; most early ones I received in one turn after hitting classical. While using info addict, I saw that I had 22 techs, with my nearest competition at 16.

The good news was that I wasn't first. Of the two other civs, I was last in production, population (The biggest had about 50% more citizens than me. My secondary cities were around 12 pop), military might, and cities (i had three). I don't remember the others but I don't think I was first.

3) Some of the early game buildings were crazy good. The windmill giving five production per pop was outrageous. In one city, my production was around 100 with ten pop. The windmill added 50 production, a 50% increase. The library was the same way, as are several other buildings further down the tech tree. Perhaps you could tone that down a bit to maybe 5 per 3/4/5 citizens, because getting a bonus that big that early on throws everything off. I think the buildings should gradually get better the longer the game goes on. So, while the windmill gives 5 per 5 (arbitrary number), the factory would give 10 per 5 (again arbitrary). The way this is now, these buildings pay for themselves very fast. If the ai doesn't build them, the player zooms right by them.

I stopped playing around the start of the classical, so I can't comment on anything after that. I want to emphasize though that I am not complaining, that I know that this is not the finished package, and that I certainly don't want to discourage you. I just see things that can be improved to bring the game to a more balanced state. Let me know what you think.

 

[ieron]

love the mod, i actually cant play the vanilla now, it's far too boring and slow.

couple of things:

+5 happiness for a strategic is fine, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for me to mine that second gold mine at the moment... may as well stick a great person's special there... any way you can make each strategic resource +3 happiness or something? edit: or make multiple golds tradeable without losing the initial 5 happiness from the first gold (i.e. just trade the second one?)

also, kinda irks me that wheat cows deer and fish aren't considered a strategic resource. any plans to tweak that?

thanks

 

[MasterJ]

haaaaaa excellent i leave only 1 week and see tons of news i just come to said v8 work but hahaha no need to say ^^ time to switch to v9

let's see your work it's good now i'm sure it's more good.

(i love the ctp2 magnetic tube (after rails) if you can have them into your mod (with of course the right settings for moves with graphics it's can be perfectly )

keep the work good

 

[FredMB]

@ Fred: Where do you put the line to change the number of specialist slots? I really want to try it after reading your report.

You need to do two things. With a text editor, preferably Notepad ++, you need to go in the "Procylon Call to Power Project (v 9).modinfo" file and add a line in the <OnModActivated> part: Here's the line:

<UpdateDatabase>Z-Unused/Tweaks.sql</UpdateDatabase>

Add it at the very bottom, just above the </OnModActivated> entry.

Once that's done you need to go into the Tweaks.sql file and add the following code:

UPDATE Buildings
SET SpecialistCount = 0
WHERE SpecialistCount >= 1;

That will do it.