Question for our Lawyers...

[downtown]

So I'm getting to the point where its time for me to get ready to apply for Law school. I took the LSAT for the first time today, and will take it again in the Spring. I was wondering, for those of you who have done all this before:

How can I get better on the logic problem section of the LSAT (besides just taking the test a zillion times)?

Of the following, which is the most important?

LSAT Score
Undergraduate GPA
undergraduate institution
Resume (work experience)
Minority status
Leadership experience/things you did in college other than school
Things you did in between undergrad and law school, like Teach for America, or the Peace Corps.

Thanks!

 

[jamiethearcher]

I would caution you against taking the test multiple times, unless you did rather poorly the first time. My understanding is that the scores are averaged, so you need a real improvement to make much of a difference. (although this is going back 4 years, so who knows how well I remember).

My LSAT was a couple points below most of my peers, as was my undergrad GPA. What I had going for me was that I brought some different experiences to the table (grew up in another country etc). I don't know how well that will work for an American student applying to an American school though.

The best advice I can give you in terms of admission strategy is to figure out your "angle" and work it hard! Remember, there are tons of people who apply for each spot, so you need something to set you apart from the pack.

Since you are starting out, I am going to give you some advice I wish I would have had before starting:

I got into a decent law school (top 100), and wound up with a GREAT job. (working for one of the largest banks in the world). I will caution you that if you plan on working for a big firm, you really need to go to a top notch school (like top 50). At my school (I think its ranked like high 70's low 80's on the US News listing), we had some of the big firms come interviewing, but they only hired 9 or 10 out of our class of 300. I imagine those numbers are quite different at better schools. Again, I went with a somewhat non-traditional path, and its worked out well for me so far, but if you want a $120K starting position at a top NYC firm, you need to get into a pretty darned good school, or else really distinguish yourself at yours. Most of my classmates are employed (only one of my close friends doesn't have a job yet) so don't worry too much about the school if you want to work at a smaller firm/government/non-traditional career path.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me!

EDIT: PS I finished in the top 25% of my class, so it turns out LSAT scores aren't everything after all!

 

[Taliesin]

At McGill, an applicant's reference letters are weighted pretty heavily; I imagine that is true to some extent of the top American schools as well.

 

[downtown]

I would caution you against taking the test multiple times, unless you did rather poorly the first time. My understanding is that the scores are averaged, so you need a real improvement to make much of a difference. (although this is going back 4 years, so who knows how well I remember).

Really? Shoot. It wasn't like that for the SAT/ACT, and I guess I just kind of assumed that this was the same way. I haven't got my scores back yet (I just look it today). I don't think I did poorly, but I think I would do better if I got to take it again. Ohio State will pay for me to take it in the spring.

My LSAT was a couple points below most of my peers, as was my undergrad GPA. What I had going for me was that I brought some different experiences to the table (grew up in another country etc). I don't know how well that will work for an American student applying to an American school though.

See, I'm kind of hoping for that too. I'll have around a 3.4, 3.5 when I graduate (with a 3.6 in my major)...but I'm also a "minority", have traveled the world, and have extensive work experience (by the time I graduate, I'll have worked in Local, State and the Federal government). I didn't know to what extent I could use things like that as a "hook".

I got into a decent law school (top 100), and wound up with a GREAT job. (working for one of the largest banks in the world). I will caution you that if you plan on working for a big firm, you really need to go to a top notch school (like top 50). At my school (I think its ranked like high 70's low 80's on the US News listing), we had some of the big firms come interviewing, but they only hired 9 or 10 out of our class of 300.

Of the schools I'm seriously considering, all of them are in the top 100, but none of them are really "elite" (top 20). George Washington is my top choice, and I *think* thats in the high 30s? The others are 45-65 range. For what its worth though, I'm not looking to do "big firm" tax law. Ideally, I'd like to work for the government, doing educational law, or work in a department similar to what JerichoHill does. Very few of the people I know, or have worked with, in state government went to a "big name" school.

I dont have the grades or the money to go say, NYU or Chicago...but I think thats okay.

 

[jamiethearcher]

Really? Shoot. It wasn't like that for the SAT/ACT, and I guess I just kind of assumed that this was the same way. I haven't got my scores back yet (I just look it today). I don't think I did poorly, but I think I would do better if I got to take it again. Ohio State will pay for me to take it in the spring.

I just wiki'd it, and it looks as though they may have changed the rule since I took the test:


"In June 2006, the American Bar Association (ABA) revised a rule that mandated law schools to report their matriculants' average score if more than one test was taken. The new ABA rule now requires law schools to report only the highest LSAT score for matriculants who took the test more than once. In response, most (but not all) law schools will now consider only the higher score in admissions, for applicants with more than one score. Applicants are urged research into whether their schools use either the average of scores or the highest score for admittance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSAT

You might want a more reliable source than Wiki though!

 

[Fifty]

My sister had a 3.8 GPA from a pretty dang good liberal arts school, division 1 athlete in 3 sports and team captain, decent amount of volunteer experience, phi beta kappa, majored in english with minors in math and german, spent a year in germany doing study abroad, and got glowing letters of recommendation from big name professors. But she didn't do great on the LSAT (though I can't remember her exact score). She ended up going to a school ranked in the mid 80s.

edit: oh and if you wants to get better at LSAT type logic pick up "Symbolic Logic" by Irving M. Copi from your library (its a classic text, I'm sure they'll have it) and work through the first 5 chapters. It isn't in LSAT like questions but it will help a lot, I'm guessing.

 

[jamiethearcher]

My sister had a 3.8 GPA from a pretty dang good liberal arts school, division 1 athlete in 3 sports and team captain, decent amount of volunteer experience, phi beta kappa, majored in english with minors in math and german, spent a year in germany doing study abroad, and got glowing letters of recommendation from big name professors. But she didn't do great on the LSAT (though I can't remember her exact score). She ended up going to a school ranked in the mid 80s.

One thing this just made me think of (and I have no idea if it pertains to your sister or not), but its much better to get a letter from some nobody professor who actually knows you, than a generic form letter from a big name.

 

[QuoVadisNation]

LSAT
LSAT
LSAT

LSAT

When applying to law school, the score you get on your LSAT is the most important. You can have a great gpa, come from an awesome fancy Nancy college, but if your LSAT score doesn't meet up the law school's requirements, they will not accept you.

On the inverse, you can come from a not-so-good undergraduate school, get a good LSAT, and still have a good chance at getting into one of them there fancy prissy law schools.

Everything else like personal statements, minority status, and all those other things are periphery to the LSAT. Say, for example, if you have a borderline LSAT score, then law schools will look at those other things. But LSAT is still the most important.

 

[JollyRoger]

GPA and LSAT are by far the two most important factors.

Back in my day, it seemed the state schools favored GPA over LSAT and the private schoiols favored LSAT over GPA. I had a lousy undergrad GPA (around 2.6) from a mediocre state school and a great LSAT (45 on a scale of 10-48, which would be in the 170-175 range on the current scale). The state schools pretty much all turned me down. I had better luck with comparable private schools.

Everything other than GPA and LSAT only matter in borderline cases and maybe extreme LSAT-GPA divergency cases like mine (where working through school and a little bit of "diversity" incorporated into my personal statement may have helped me get into a school where my low grades should have kept me out).

The main point is that a bad LSAT or GPA is going to limit your choices and even an exteremly good number in the other category, while perhaps broadening your choices a bit isn't going to help you as much as the bad number hurts you.

Schools I got accepted to - SMU, South Texas College of Law, St. Mary's (Texas), University of Tulsa, and Texas Southern

Schools I got a nice pretty rejection letter from - Texas, USC, NYU, Cornell, Texas Tech, University of Houston, Arizona, and Oklahoma.

I can't really tell you how to get better on the LSAT. I scored pretty high on my 1st practice exam as a college freshman and basically just did a book full of practice questions in the month leading up to the exam. It was something that I luckily didn't have to work too hard at.

 

[Madroc]

IANAL, but I am a 2L at a Top 50 school.

Effective this year, virtually every law school is going to accept the high LSAT score without averaging. The reason is they can, and they have to report the scores as they use them. Since every school wants to raise its admissions numbers for rankings purposes, they will use the highest number they can. Don't trust me, or wikipedia; check your schools' admission websites, or just ask someone there.

GPA and LSAT score are pretty much what does it, except at the margins. Underrepresented minority status effectively adds a few points to your LSAT.

Don't think you can't afford a top school if you get in; loans are almost too easy to get. And a lot of gov't jobs are just as hard to get as BigLaw. OTOH, don't overpay; consider a state school if you get into one, and don't be shy about haggling over your financial aid package. Don't overpay for ranking, especially outside the top 14.

Re: improving your LSAT score: conventional wisdom has it that the logic games are the most "learnable"; the logical reasoning and reading comp both fall into the "you have it or you don't" category. I used the Kaplan self-prep book and the Kaplan LSAT 180 book. I only recommend the latter if your first score (or practice exams) is above 160 or so, because it focuses entirely on the hardest few questions per section, which are not worth your time unless you are getting all the other ones right with minutes to spare. In any event, practice, practice, practice with old exams or practice sets which you can buy anywhere. I had to retake the LSAT b/c my old score got too old before I finally got around to law school, and I improved my score by 10 points with significant effort.

Feel free to PM me if you want.

On edit: I noticed that you said you just took it today, and you are already planning to retake it. Why? I asume you are not applying to begin this fall; the spring exam is way too late for that. But there's something to be said for waiting.

 

[IglooDame]

Does anyone know of any free tests online that give one a reasonable facsimile of LSAT scores? I'm good at taking tests, and logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension are all strong points for me, so I'm curious about how I'd do.

 

[dutchfire]

Does anyone know of any free tests online that give one a reasonable facsimile of LSAT scores? I'm good at taking tests, and logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension are all strong points for me, so I'm curious about how I'd do.

Googling gave me this.

 

[IglooDame]

Googling gave me this.

Thanks! I didn't think to google it, I figured a couple people here probably had used some recently.

 

[downtown]

And a lot of gov't jobs are just as hard to get as BigLaw.

Yeah, thats true. The people that I've worked with/for, who have jobs that I could see myself doing though (Educational Lawyer, City Law Director, State Prosecutor, etc) by and large, have not come from elite law schools. Most of the people in my office currently (which is a pretty well-paying post) come from local law schools outside the top 100, or neat the bottom.

consider a state school if you get into one

This is what I did for my undergrad, to save money. Ohio does not have many good law schools (Ohio State at 31, Cincinnati at 57). I'm at Ohio State now, and I hate it, and will not be going here for graduate anything. I'll prob. apply to OSU (and Case, at 51, which is private, but with money to burn), but I dont even think I'll bat an eye at the others. I always have BYU as a cheap fallback.

and don't be shy about haggling over your financial aid package

Wait...you can haggle over this? Please go on.

On edit: I noticed that you said you just took it today, and you are already planning to retake it. Why? I asume you are not applying to begin this fall; the spring exam is way too late for that. But there's something to be said for waiting.

Yeah, I'm not applying for this fall, I'm only a junior, and won't graduate until 2009. I'll take it again in the spring, unless I got above a 165. My practice test scores have me pegged at close to 160 (high 150s, low 160s)....but I'm assuming that I didn't do wonderfully on the games section.

The places I am looking at are:

USC (16)
George Washington (22)
University of Washington (28)
Ohio State (31, not seriously considering)
Wisconsin (31)
George Mason (34)
U Maryland (36)
BYU (44)
American (47)
Case Western Reserve (53)

So, I lied. I guess I'm looking at more places in the 25-40 range.

 

[Madroc]

Yeah, thats true. The people that I've worked with/for, who have jobs that I could see myself doing though (Educational Lawyer, City Law Director, State Prosecutor, etc) by and large, have not come from elite law schools. Most of the people in my office currently (which is a pretty well-paying post) come from local law schools outside the top 100, or neat the bottom.

For those kinds of jobs, you don't need an 'elite' pedigree, and going to school in the local market might matter more than US News ranking. I was referring more to DoJ, etc. But keep in mind that just b/c an employer hires a lot of people from 'nonelite' schools doesn't mean that you have a decent chance of getting that job; they may only be hiring from the tippy-top of the class.

This is what I did for my undergrad, to save money. Ohio does not have many good law schools (Ohio State at 31, Cincinnati at 57). I'm at Ohio State now, and I hate it, and will not be going here for graduate anything. I'll prob. apply to OSU (and Case, at 51, which is private, but with money to burn), but I dont even think I'll bat an eye at the others. I always have BYU as a cheap fallback.

Law schools typically have little in common with the undergrad institution. Don't rule out OSU; it's an up-and-comer after all that money Moritz gave them. If you want to be a prosecutor, consider a lower-ranked school in the market you like. A friend of mine went to Case and is now a prosecutor in Cleveland; he has often intimated that he would have gone to Cleveland State if he could do it over. He would have the same job and a lot less debt.

Don't assume that BYU is a "cheap fallback"; everyone else thinks the same thing. That is probably one of the few schools at which the ranking is misleading as to how selective it really is.

Wait...you can haggle over this? Please go on.

Sure. "I'm very interested in your school, but School X offered me a $Y scholarship and I'm very tempted." If you have numbers they want, and there is FA money left (another reason to apply early), they're not going to lose you over a few thousand bucks. Worked for me.
Obviously it helps to have an LSAT score above their average.

Yeah, I'm not applying for this fall, I'm only a junior, and won't graduate until 2009. I'll take it again in the spring, unless I got above a 165. My practice test scores have me pegged at close to 160 (high 150s, low 160s)....but I'm assuming that I didn't do wonderfully on the games section.

The LSAT is expensive, and most retakers don't change their score by much. Did you prep the first time around? Unless you score well below your practice range, what would you do in the next few months to raise it that much?

The places I am looking at are:

USC (16)
George Washington (22)
University of Washington (28)
Ohio State (31, not seriously considering)
Wisconsin (31)
George Mason (34)
U Maryland (36)
BYU (44)
American (47)
Case Western Reserve (53)

Unless your undergrad GPA is spectacular, you'll probably need at least a 165 for most of those schools. If you hit 160 you should be OK at Case.

So, I lied. I guess I'm looking at more places in the 25-40 range.

 

[downtown]

Law schools typically have little in common with the undergrad institution. Don't rule out OSU; it's an up-and-comer after all that money Moritz gave them. If you want to be a prosecutor, consider a lower-ranked school in the market you like. A friend of mine went to Case and is now a prosecutor in Cleveland; he has often intimated that he would have gone to Cleveland State if he could do it over. He would have the same job and a lot less debt.

I don't doubt that the academics at Mortiz are great. My qualm with OSU isn't so much one of academics, but of the other stuff. With the exception of my freshman year of college (DC), and my LDS missioin (Sacramento), I've lived my entire life in the Columbus area. I'm ready to live somewhere else.

Plus, OSU has like 60,000 students, and 40,000 faculty and staff, and you get lost in the massive bureaucracy ALL the time. I'm sick of having to fight for everything here! I want to live somewhere else, and hopefully, go to a smaller school (although I am aware that Wisconsin is just as big).

Don't assume that BYU is a "cheap fallback"; everyone else thinks the same thing. That is probably one of the few schools at which the ranking is misleading as to how selective it really is.

Oh, I know all about BYU. Its crazy selective for Non-Mormons for the Law School, but I have everything that BYU loves in its students...Eagle Scout, Seminary and Institute graduate, Returned Missionary. If I dont bomb the LSAT, I dont think getting in here will be a stretch.

"I'm very interested in your school, but School X offered me a $Y scholarship and I'm very tempted." If you have numbers they want, and there is FA money left (another reason to apply early), they're not going to lose you over a few thousand bucks. Worked for me.
Obviously it helps to have an LSAT score above their average.

Yeah, I tried that for my undergrad, even when I had a lot of leverage, and I failed. Honestly, looking at where I want to go, I dont think I'm going to have that kind of leverage. If I get in, great! I'll get the loans.

The LSAT is expensive, and most retakers don't change their score by much. Did you prep the first time around? Unless you score well below your practice range, what would you do in the next few months to raise it that much?

I didn't prep as much as I could have. I didn't have to pay for the test the first time, and the OSU minority affairs group will pay for me to take it again in the spring. We'll see what my score turns out to be...but I think that if I do more prep, and its free, why not try to grab a few more points?

Unless your undergrad GPA is spectacular, you'll probably need at least a 165 for most of those schools. If you hit 160 you should be OK at Case.

Yeah, I was looking at the US News LSAT ranges, and most of them were between 158-167. When a GW rep came for a law school fair, he said that given the rest of my package, a 160, 162 ought to be enough...but better get the 165

 

[El_Machinae]

The LSAT and the GPA are placed on a grid, and most of the choosing is done from that graph. Most schools have enough slots to just pick people based on their scores.

My wife didn't need a letter of reference or a resume to get in. Her GPA was okay, but her LSAT smoked her in.

There are general ways of getting better at taking tests, but the most time-efficient manner is just to take sample tests - but to try really hard on them, and time yourself. If the goal is performance, then those are the most efficient ways of getting good grades

 

[JollyRoger]

The LSAT and the GPA are placed on a grid, and most of the choosing is done from that graph. Most schools have enough slots to just pick people based on their scores.

I was off on my own little island in that grid for some schools I applied to. Had my own box on the grid to myself with nobody in the boxes around me. The top 50 school that I got into must have been looking at how far to the right my island was on the grid while the tier 3 school that rejected me must have not liked a candidate with an island of his own in such a southern location of the grid.

 

[Madroc]

I was off on my own little island in that grid for some schools I applied to. Had my own box on the grid to myself with nobody in the boxes around me. The top 50 school that I got into must have been looking at how far to the right my island was on the grid while the tier 3 school that rejected me must have not liked a candidate with an island of his own in such a southern location of the grid.

Same here. 2.97 UGPA and a 99th percentile LSAT score made for an odd bunch of admission responses.