Questions and Discussions on Venice

[MarauderCH]

Venice is a monster civ when played right. I always go for Optics first because I also build the Great Lighthouse. With Venice, you are going to have a spread out empire with a lot of trade routes, protecting those trade routes is important and having a mobile navy is very important. Getting Optics early will also help your map exploration. Your scouts will be able to island hop and grab all the ancient ruins while your ships find the city states first and get the 30 gold! This fast early start will get you moving fast at the start of the game.

Tradition is ideal over Liberty for Venice. It's growth bonuses are the key. I'll fill tradition and the take two Patronage before opening Commerce and Exploration. Commerce is good because by the time you enter the Renaissance, you should never build a building in Venice. The policy for reduced purchasing is important. Exploration makes your navy even faster and it can see even farther. This is good for your navy since it is faster and can protect trade routes. Finishing Exploration to find the hidden archeology sites works for Venice more then most civs. With Venice, you will have plenty of time to crank out Archeologists. This will allow you to grab all the hidden sites.

Order finishes off Venice perfectly. The policy that makes purchasing buildings even more cheaper allows you to get buildings even cheaper. The crown jewel is the Iron Curtain policy that increases internal trade routes by 50%. Your cargo ships with be bringing 14 food per turn back to Venice and you should have as many trade routes as possible doing this. I believe I have hit 70 pop in Venice before (in an epic game).

 

[beetle]

Order finishes off Venice perfectly.

But what VC does Order help Venice with?

 

[reddishrecue]

Order could help with military and science usually. That means that you could get diplomatic victory or domination victories.

 

[Primacide]

But what VC does Order help Venice with?

I think they were saying more that "order takes venice's advantages and pushes them to the extreme". The skyscrapers tenet (-30% purchase cost) and the iron curtain (+food on trade routes) tenet both push Venice to soaring heights. It was this the post was referring to. I don't think order really helps a particular vc, it just doesn't exclude any.

 

[MarauderCH]

When playing as Venice, I normally go for Cultural or Domination Victory. Order might not do much for Cultural, but there is no civ that can crank out Archeologists like Venice. The only thing you will be building at that stage of the game are Wonders and things you cannot purchase. Since you can purchase in your puppets, you can make sure you have enough slots available also. The last Venice game I played, I was doing so many archeological digs that I completely ran out of room. I focused on the hidden sites hoping to pop the culture boost that is possible from these sites.

Domination is also good for Venice because you can purchase all the military units you will need. If you are not making several hundred gold per turn with Venice, you are doing something wrong. Buy your military and then mop the floor with the AI. The combination of the Great Lighthouse, Exploration opener, and Brandenburg gate give you a fast and powerful navy. The AI won't knw what hit them...

 

[beetle]

I don't think order really helps a particular vc, it just doesn't exclude any.

Exactly, but Venice is boxed in when it comes to any VC other than Diplo -- and Diplo is already EZ mode for most civs. Those are two nice order tenets for Venice to be sure, but if you want a CV or SV with Venice, you have to go Freedom. A dom victory with them would be particularly tough.

 

[Athenaeum]

I just beat an Immortal file with Venice and I have a few things to say about it.

One, I went Tradition instead of Liberty this time (which I had never done before with Venice) and gotta say that things worked just fine. I tried to get markets soon to get merchants, and that worked.

Getting merchants generally wasn't a problem, mainly because I only wanted 4 or 5 cities this time. Since puppets have 25% science and culture penalties, acquiring more cities is even less optimal to your research so I decided to play small and it worked out just fine. It also left more CS's to make allies with and receive delegates from.

I even used my free Optics merchant for a culture CS, and took the gold from that and got a faith CS friend, to get an early religion. I actually worked out fairly well.



One downside to playing Tradition with Venice, at least from what I noticed, is that you don't get nearly as many merchants near the end of the game.

I've had Venice/Liberty files before where I had 10 cities, and near the end, I was getting a merchant like every other turn. I guess with this case, you have more banks and stock exchanges to fill with specialists.




I would be very grateful if someone else would play a Venice/Tradition and Venice/Liberty file too and let me know what they thought of the comparison.

 

[Lord Enrico]

Venice is an awesome Civilization IMO.

I am not an advanced deity player or immortal. I play quite a lot on Emperor and some on King.

1.) I think it's not THE best idea to rush 'buy' a City-State. I wait, probably until mid-game or until I think my Science is not at it's best. For three main reasons: a.) More units b.) I don't control it, so wait until mid-game for it to create more buildings c.) Improved terrains.

I once played a game not going my traditional route, and I disliked it.

2.) I tend to go for Tradition, because, the game is right: "Best for small empires". So. Tradition. Patronage. Commerce. Rationalism. (And for a domination-checked game without max turns checked = Exploration.) [So, if you have Archipelago or any map type of the like, Max Turns = off'd and Domination Victory type is the only one checked. I go = All on Tradition. All on Patronage. Some on Commerce. Some to All in Rationalism. Some on Exploration. And invest some in your Ideology.

2.A.) It's not a problem for culture. Because. You can pretty much get allies with all the City-States. So, More culture. More happiness. More Faith. Food. And more units. With the Amount of money you're making, you're almost possibly guaranteed to get allies with them. (I almost get to around 200-400 [500] Gold per turn.

So, Culture, say, there's 8 Cultured CSs in one game. Thats 8x12(?)[Needs confirmation] Culture per turn, if you're allied with them. So one thing to note, but this is probably not a very good idea, add more City-States to a Map. Standard has 16 CSs, make it 20 or 25 or something like that.

3.) Tradition: "Best for SMALL Empires"
Liberty: "Best for WIDE Empires"

So, since Venice, One City, it's best to go Tradition, EVEN on missing out on the GMoV in the Liberty Tree, because, why would you throw out a lot of advantages on Tradition for that GMoV on Liberty? It doesn't make sense. And, DON'T rush out your first GMoV and outright 'buy' a CS. It's not a good idea, IMO.

Some tips:
Since you're not gonna do settlers and all, you can and should (?) build the Hanging Gardens.
If you're next to a Desert or near desert [w/c is not impossible], TRY to build Petra for the extra, err, I mean, for the 2 more trade route slots. .

As Venice, I usually turn on Legendary Start.

I maybe wrong , but, that's what I go with.

 

[MarauderCH]

Since I build the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus with Venice, I normally don't build the Hanging Gardens which I build in every other game I take Tradition. I build it for the early growth bonus. I find with Venice that the internal trade routes with food are so powerful that in the long run, it is not needed.

 

[beetle]

I think it's not THE best idea to rush 'buy' a City-State.

This is what makes Venice so frustrating to me. A CS ally is much, much better than a CS puppet. One could make the case that optimal Venice play is to only run Trade Missions with MoV. But how much fun is that?

Puppets, in general, don’t directly contribute to VC. Sure, they are a net positive gold, culture, science -- but those are indirect contributes. They can’t build units to help Dom. They can’t build spaceship parts for SV. Puppets are low on Tourism, so no real use for CV. Any puppet CS reduces the vote needed for World Leader, so while that doesn’t make DiploV harder, it does make the AI civ votes carry relatively more weight, so DiploV is not really easier either.

When I first played Venice I mostly focused on using MoV to steal CS that were strongly allied to opponents. That is kind of fun, but not as strong as the great advice on this thread to focus on CS that can be used for internal trade routes. Because of the way GP counters work, I don’t think Liberty Venice gets really gets you two extra MoVs, it just gets them earlier than with Tradition. As people have pointed out, it is better to let the CS develop a bit before puppeting them anyway, so there is little value in earlier MoVs.

 

[shaglio]

Puppets, in general, don’t directly contribute to VC. Sure, they are a net positive gold, culture, science -- but those are indirect contributes. They can’t build units to help Dom. They can’t build spaceship parts for SV. Puppets are low on Tourism, so no real use for CV. Any puppet CS reduces the vote needed for World Leader, so while that doesn’t make DiploV harder, it does make the AI civ votes carry relatively more weight, so DiploV is not really easier either.

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote except for the 2 bolded lines.

A) Puppets can't build units, but you can still purchase units in them. This is helpful if you are fighting a war far from your capital, but you have a puppeted CS in the neighborhood. Just buy units there and it'll save you travel time.

B) Puppets aren't low on culture if you buy the culture buildings and stock them with Great Works as well as buying Airports and Hotels. More Puppets = more culture buildings = more places to store Great Works = faster Culture Victory.

 

[beetle]

I was writing about puppets generally. But, yes, Venice has less of a problem with puppets because of the ability to purchase. Of course, that not as strong as having the option to annex, especially for any captured capitals. So even with the UA, Venice comes out behind.

Yes, even regular puppets will eventually build culture buildings and hotels (not sure about airports), but running out of GW slots is not usually a limiting factor after the early game. I don’t know of any CV guides where puppeting is a factor. Well, except for maybe domination-driven CV, which again would be harder-than-average for Venice.

Venice rush buying units saves travel time, but then you need to rush buy barracks and armory too. That can help significantly defense, but I am skeptical that Venice (or any civ really) can rush buy units to a DomV, at least at Deity. Good players describe an Honor/Commerce/Autocracy snowball where the gold is rolling in so much that you are rush buying units every turn -- but I don’t think that is an option for Venice. Rush-buying on the front line is not as strong as the ability to annex a cap near the front line. Finally, the strongest tenets for warmongering in Order and Autocracy are for the free or half-price-double-happy courthouses. Tenets that do nothing for Venice!

I would love to see a guide for Venice VC or Dom, as I just don't think it's feasible. But then, I was skeptical of getting an SV out them too, but Freedom does make that pretty easy.

 

[Lord Enrico]

Since I build the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus with Venice, I normally don't build the Hanging Gardens which I build in every other game I take Tradition. I build it for the early growth bonus. I find with Venice that the internal trade routes with food are so powerful that in the long run, it is not needed.

Oh, okay. So, basically, I got wrong there. What was I thinking? But, it's an awesome wonder early on.

And, I almost definitely TRY to build the TEMPLE OF ARTEMIS.

Why?
A.) 10% Growth. But, [Asides from the Hanging Gardens of Montezuma=15% growth] Does not mean 10% of the excess food, but it adds up to total food. Which is actually a lot. Because, 10%? TOTAL FOOD?

And since you're playing as Venice. You can try to.

http://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/21y7qy/wonder_discussion_temple_of_artemis/

 

[Lord Enrico]

But your comment makes me reconsider! If I am not pursing a DiploV, why does Venice need Patronage at all?

Because IT IS AWESOME FOR VENICE. Except the early-game, you're pretty much allied with, if not all, ALMOST ALL the City-States in the game.

Even if you don't pursue a Diplomatic victory, this tree, especially if you manage to complete it, will help Venice a lot.

First, adopting the opener, allows you to build the Forbidden Palace (+2 delegates) and your influence degrades 25% slower.

Second, Adopting Philanthrophy and Consulates will let you constantly get allied with CSs for the rest of the game.

Third, adopting Scholasticism, will net you 25% of the Science they (the CSs) produce for themselves. Which is a lot in the mid-game to late game.
Assuming, You're playing my last game, which was on standard map, 23 CSs, I am allied with them all, during Mid-game to late game. They net me, probably 5-10 Science per turn.

That's 115-230 Science per turn. So? Yeah.

Fourth, being able to adopt Cultural Diplomacy will, basically, mean that you will receive double the strategic resources the CSs give you. And +6 Happiness for each Luxury they give you.

And, if you complete the Patronage tree, they will occasionally GIFT YOU GREAT PEOPLE.

 

[beetle]

Because IT IS AWESOME FOR VENICE.

Yes, but not as awesome as Commerce. So the opportunity cost is too high.

Except the early-game, you're pretty much allied with, if not all, ALMOST ALL the City-States in the game.

Absolutely. But Venice has so much money that there is no need for Patronage.

Third, adopting Scholasticism, will net you 25% of the Science they (the CSs) produce for themselves.

Not worth it when you could have three policies in Rationalism instead.

Fourth, being able to adopt Cultural Diplomacy will, basically, mean that you will receive double the strategic resources the CSs give you. And +6 Happiness for each Luxury they give you.

Venice is OCC, so no problem with happiness. I don’t think 2x CS strategics would matter much either.

And, if you complete the Patronage tree, they will occasionally GIFT YOU GREAT PEOPLE.

Patronage is a great tree, for any civ. Just less much less important to Venice as compared to picks in Commerce, Rationalism, and Freedom.

 

[Myth and Legend]

Played a OCC with Venice on Deity the other night. I have it in the bag i think. 2 salt start, grabbed the Colossus. Swam in money the entire game.

First time I ever considered patronage (didn't know the policy scienc off CS allis is so important), I didn't even know exactly how I was supposed to win diplo victory. I just sort of bought every CS I could and bribed friendly AIs to vote for me for world leader. I was 10 votes short. Next time I will just pick whatever is the dominant ideology so everyone loves the crap out of me. EZ diplo victory.