Quick Science Victory

[pwsiegel]

I've been playing on emperor for awhile now, and I have at least one of each type of victory: science, culture, diplomacy, and domination. But I'm finding that my victories are a little slower than others describe, and I suspect some of this may be due to my scientific output.

As a test, I decided to go all out for a science victory with the Inca. I got 6 pretty good cities going (including Egypt's capital), and I quickly amassed a huge tech lead over the AI. By the end of the game I was producing 1800 bpt, but I still didn't win until turn 328 (at turn 320 I had enough votes for a diplomatic victory but bypassed it for the sake of the experiment). Reading online it seems that others consider science victories on emperor below 300 turns to be rather routine, but I can't get anywhere near this. I have of course achieved science victories with Babylon and Korea as well, but 328 with the Inca is my fastest science victory to date.

I read as many threads on fast science victories as I could find to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Several people have proposed the following benchmarks:
Education: turn 110
Scientific Theory: turn 160
Plastics: turn 200

My initial suspicion is that these people are either lying or playing a different game. Only with a pretty lucky start can I get education below turn 120, I never get scientific theory much below turn 200, and plastics by turn 250 might be possible if nobody declares war on me in spite of the low tech military that one must maintain in order to follow the science beelines. In other words, my technological development is somewhere around 30% slower than optimal, which I don't understand.

I started a game as Babylon to see if I could get anywhere near these benchmarks. My starting position was pretty good: my capital had a river, two unique luxuries, lots of food, and some hills. I was also quite distant from the nearest AI and had plenty of room to settle two good cities (one by a river with hills, another on the coast with 3 fish). I sent two food caravans to the new cities and filled out tradition rather quickly thanks to the cultural ruin. I had to slow down growth for only a few turns while I got my luxuries up and finished some circuses. My tech order was AH - Pottery - Trapping - Writing - Philosophy beeline - Education beeline. Given how smoothly everything was going and given the nice science boost from the academy that I got after writing, I should have been ahead of the target. Instead I got Education on turn 116, i.e. 5% slower than the benchmark. I'm not going to continue until I can figure out what I'm doing wrong, but Scientific Theory at turn 200 looks optimistic, let alone turn 160.

So are the benchmarks above a load of crap, or am I missing something fundamental?

 

[stormtrooper412]

Those benchmarks are on the lower end of the spectrum actually

so yes, you definitely are missing lots of fundamental stuff, but then again, I'd have to play an Emperor game to see how the numbers work there

 

[Fish Man]

I've been playing on emperor for awhile now, and I have at least one of each type of victory: science, culture, diplomacy, and domination. But I'm finding that my victories are a little slower than others describe, and I suspect some of this may be due to my scientific output.

As a test, I decided to go all out for a science victory with the Inca. I got 6 pretty good cities going (including Egypt's capital), and I quickly amassed a huge tech lead over the AI. By the end of the game I was producing 1800 bpt, but I still didn't win until turn 328 (at turn 320 I had enough votes for a diplomatic victory but bypassed it for the sake of the experiment). Reading online it seems that others consider science victories on emperor below 300 turns to be rather routine, but I can't get anywhere near this. I have of course achieved science victories with Babylon and Korea as well, but 328 with the Inca is my fastest science victory to date.

I read as many threads on fast science victories as I could find to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Several people have proposed the following benchmarks:
Education: turn 110
Scientific Theory: turn 160
Plastics: turn 200

My initial suspicion is that these people are either lying or playing a different game. Only with a pretty lucky start can I get education below turn 120, I never get scientific theory much below turn 200, and plastics by turn 250 might be possible if nobody declares war on me in spite of the low tech military that one must maintain in order to follow the science beelines. In other words, my technological development is somewhere around 30% slower than optimal, which I don't understand.

I started a game as Babylon to see if I could get anywhere near these benchmarks. My starting position was pretty good: my capital had a river, two unique luxuries, lots of food, and some hills. I was also quite distant from the nearest AI and had plenty of room to settle two good cities (one by a river with hills, another on the coast with 3 fish). I sent two food caravans to the new cities and filled out tradition rather quickly thanks to the cultural ruin. I had to slow down growth for only a few turns while I got my luxuries up and finished some circuses. My tech order was AH - Pottery - Trapping - Writing - Philosophy beeline - Education beeline. Given how smoothly everything was going and given the nice science boost from the academy that I got after writing, I should have been ahead of the target. Instead I got Education on turn 116, i.e. 5% slower than the benchmark. I'm not going to continue until I can figure out what I'm doing wrong, but Scientific Theory at turn 200 looks optimistic, let alone turn 160.

So are the benchmarks above a load of crap, or am I missing something fundamental?

What sizes are your cities? Are you growing them? Can you give a save/picture?

 

[stormtrooper412]

yeah, a screenshot of Education turn is mandatory if you want anyone to see what it's all about

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Several people have proposed the following benchmarks:
Education: turn 110
Scientific Theory: turn 160
Plastics: turn 200

My initial suspicion is that these people are either lying or playing a different game.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they either blatantly lying or cheating or using mods for their advantage; there is no other way to do it.

 

[binhthuy71]

Did your start have plenty of Jungle tiles?
Were one or more of your cities settled within one tile of a mountain for Observatory?
Did you work the left side of Patronage for Scholasticism and ally as many CS as you could? CS alliances seem to help with every aspect of the game.
Did you use the above mentioned CS alliances to pass Sciences Funding in the World Congress?
You probably did all of those things and more. Just asking.

 

[consentient]

You didn't mention National College. When are you building it?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

a few things that really helped me step up my science game:

~ rush buy a library in the last city you settled in order to get the national college faster. timing is everything here, sometimes i even go monument -> lib in my second expansion just to get the national college a few turns earlier. it really is that gamebreaking

~ try to immedeatly aim for renaissance after finishing tradition. you want to put every social policy to its best possible use, so get secularism asap. after you got secularism try working as many specialists as possible while still maintaining growth.

~ don't waste the oxford free tech and the ratio finisher. use them for extremely important technologies like plastics or getting freedom/order first.

~ if korea, always go freedom. if not, order is usually a little better (according to tommynt), however i generally prefer freedom.

~ prebuild / build the oracle so it times with entering renaissance. check ai capitals for the sprite, if you see it, bribe them to go to war to buy some time.

~ a religion can help immensely. if you have a good religion, go order. you can use faith-bought great engineers to speed up your rocket ship. if your religion is sucky just go
freedom and amass gold.

~ don't settle too many cities or settle them too late. you get a penalty for every city you settle, making it actually harder to acquire techs rather than easier.

~ exploit the ai. sell them gpt for gold shortly before getting universities, public schools and research labs so you can get the buildings the turn the tech comes around.

~ don't plant too many great scientists, unless going freedom i never plant more than two. rather let them hang around in your capital for late-game bulbing.

~ there is a great detailed thread about how to use research agreements to their full potential. read it!

~ i usually get granary extremely early in my second expand, sometimes before monument, just to get that food caravan into my capital asap. ideally you want to have
more than one food trade route into your capital so you can work production tiles.


if you are already doing all of those things then try playing on a higher difficulty. getting better caravans, more worker steals and more gold from the ai can sometimes help. good luck!

 

[Fish Man]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they either blatantly lying or cheating or using mods for their advantage; there is no other way to do it.

We're not cheating, I'm hurt you'd accuse us of such a thing

But to see general advice on getting a quick SV, check out my general strategy guide for science victories:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=530940

 

[pwsiegel]

What sizes are your cities? Are you growing them? Can you give a save/picture?

Here's a picture of my Babylon game at education:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=392543&stc=1&d=1428865186
(I had to play through part of it again, and I managed to get it at 115.)

You didn't mention National College. When are you building it?

In the Babylon game above I completed the National College at turn 102. I bought the library in my 3rd city, and my first two cities finished their libraries on the same turn (a little before turn 90).

Did your start have plenty of Jungle tiles?
Were one or more of your cities settled within one tile of a mountain for Observatory?
Did you work the left side of Patronage for Scholasticism and ally as many CS as you could? CS alliances seem to help with every aspect of the game.
Did you use the above mentioned CS alliances to pass Sciences Funding in the World Congress?
You probably did all of those things and more. Just asking.

In my turn 328 Inca game I had a decent number of jungle tiles and three of my cities built observatories. I got scholasticism, finished rationalism, adopted freedom, and worked all my science slots by the end of the game. I was pretty aggressive about CS alliances - I got the cultural and a couple mercantile CS's quite early, and was allied with all of them by the time their votes counted in the world congress (this is why I could have won a diplomatic victory 8 turns before my science victory). I passed science funding and a bunch of other things.

 

[Fish Man]

I see you have two workers for your three cities, and many tiles around your cap are unimproved. Babylon can be literally 15 pop right now if you had civil service farms lying around. Try to get more workers - this is important, you're missing like 10-20 food per turn right now because of this. Steal 2 from 1 civ/CS and build 2, or steal 1 and build 3 - doesn't matter, just get 4 or at least 3.

Also, why libraries on turn 90? I'd say BO for capital is scout-scout-monument-worker-settler-granary-settler-settler-library-caravan. Get tradition and get free monuments in all your expansions so you can build libraries first thing. Akkad is in a questionable location; a bit too crowded by CS. Instead of Babylon in the center you could've put two other coastal cities for max sea food trade routes. Build libraries in cap + 2 other cities and buy one in your last. This should allow for t80-90 NC, about when you reach civil service. Then it's all a matter of grow, grow, grow.

 

[pwsiegel]

~ rush buy a library in the last city you settled in order to get the national college faster. timing is everything here, sometimes i even go monument -> lib in my second expansion just to get the national college a few turns earlier. it really is that gamebreaking

Typically buy at least one library, but in cities where I build libraries I usually build a granary first. Maybe I should build libraries first.

~ try to immedeatly aim for renaissance after finishing tradition. you want to put every social policy to its best possible use, so get secularism asap. after you got secularism try working as many specialists as possible while still maintaining growth.

I typically get one or two policies after tradition but before the renaissance (even when beelining); I usually put these in patronage. Of course, if I could get to the renaissance faster then I wouldn't have needed to post this question.

~ don't waste the oxford free tech and the ratio finisher. use them for extremely important technologies like plastics or getting freedom/order first.

I don't usually time these very well; thanks for this suggestion. I think my problems begin earlier than Oxford, but this will probably help.

~ if korea, always go freedom. if not, order is usually a little better (according to tommynt), however i generally prefer freedom.

I tend to use freedom as well, unless I'm going for domination.

~ prebuild / build the oracle so it times with entering renaissance. check ai capitals for the sprite, if you see it, bribe them to go to war to buy some time.

This sounds tricky, but I'll give it a try.

~ a religion can help immensely. if you have a good religion, go order. you can use faith-bought great engineers to speed up your rocket ship. if your religion is sucky just go
freedom and amass gold.

I decide whether or not to go for religion based on my starting terrain. It doesn't seem to correlate with my tech victory turn.

~ don't settle too many cities or settle them too late. you get a penalty for every city you settle, making it actually harder to acquire techs rather than easier.

I generally aim for 5 cities when going for a tech victory.

~ exploit the ai. sell them gpt for gold shortly before getting universities, public schools and research labs so you can get the buildings the turn the tech comes around.

Any suggestions other than selling horses and spare luxuries?

~ don't plant too many great scientists, unless going freedom i never plant more than two. rather let them hang around in your capital for late-game bulbing.

I've read that one should plant until Scientific Theory and then save them; this is usually what I do.

~ there is a great detailed thread about how to use research agreements to their full potential. read it!

Since I'm playing emperor I think the research agreements aren't quite as useful, though I still usually end up getting at least a few anyway.

~ i usually get granary extremely early in my second expand, sometimes before monument, just to get that food caravan into my capital asap. ideally you want to have
more than one food trade route into your capital so you can work production tiles.

Different threads have different advice about this. For instance, the 3 city tradition thread says you should send your first trade route from your capital to your third city. What's the right thinking here?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

" Any suggestions other than selling horses and spare luxuries? "

yes. sell them your gold per turn for actual gold. if you have atleast two friends and start early enough (about 10 times before getting unis or public schools) you should be able to buy them instantly as the tech arrives. prioritize high science cities (obviously) or low hammer cities.

" Different threads have different advice about this. For instance, the 3 city tradition thread says you should send your first trade route from your capital to your third city. What's the right thinking here? "

i don't think there's a general rule of thumb, but seeing as your capital will almost always have the national college in it and the highest pop, trade routes to the cap are most effective. obviously there is no need to have +30 or +40 growth, you're better off sending the trade routes to a observatory or jungle city in that case.

" I've read that one should plant until Scientific Theory and then save them; this is usually what I do. "

this is one thing that can hugely improve finishing times. generally you'll want to have atleast 6+ great scientists when you're about to end the game, so you can bulb a technology every turn or atleast every other turn and have insane overflow. timing is everything, really. planting scientists is not as bad with freedom, but you really should never plant more than two or three. it will just mess with your finishing times.

" I decide whether or not to go for religion based on my starting terrain. It doesn't seem to correlate with my tech victory turn. "

are you stacking faith in order to faith buy great engineers (for hubble) and great scientists (for late game bulbing)?

for this it is very important to understand the mechanics: a great scientist will give you your empires science output over the last eight turns (correct me if i am wrong please), so be sure to only use them 8 turns after you have reached maximum beakers, or a critical point (8 turns after research lab rush buying for example).

it's those little things that can turn a turn 300 sv into a sub 200 sv (as demonstrated by tommy the madman).

 

[pwsiegel]

I see you have two workers for your three cities, and many tiles around your cap are unimproved. Babylon can be literally 15 pop right now if you had civil service farms lying around. Try to get more workers - this is important, you're missing like 10-20 food per turn right now because of this. Steal 2 from 1 civ/CS and build 2, or steal 1 and build 3 - doesn't matter, just get 4 or at least 3.

I actually do have a third worker - you can just barely make out the corner of his icon in Dur-Kurigalzu. I built 2 of them and stole one from Mombasa. How does one steal more than one worker without incurring a permanent diplomatic hit? Also, the reason I don't have more farms at this point is that I spend most of the first 100 turns developing luxury resources for happiness and horses for gold; should I ignore the gold and build farms instead? If so, won't I have to hard build all the libraries?

Also, why libraries on turn 90? I'd say BO for capital is scout-scout-monument-worker-settler-granary-settler-settler-library-caravan. Get tradition and get free monuments in all your expansions so you can build libraries first thing. Akkad is in a questionable location; a bit too crowded by CS. Instead of Babylon in the center you could've put two other coastal cities for max sea food trade routes. Build libraries in cap + 2 other cities and buy one in your last. This should allow for t80-90 NC, about when you reach civil service. Then it's all a matter of grow, grow, grow.

My capital build order was similar to what you wrote, (with a second worker instead of a third settler), but I think I built the caravan before the library because I figured there was no point in finishing the library in the capital 12 turns before the library in the second city finished. Perhaps the difference is that I should build the library before the granary in my second city? (I usually follow Tabarnak's 3 cities tradition guide.) Does the little bit of extra science really make up for the loss in growth?

Also, there is a reason for the placement of Akkad which was cropped out of the screenshot: two tiles below Akkad is a cocoa resource, my third unique luxury. You'll notice that I'm treading water happiness-wise as it is; how would I have supported two coastal cities instead of Akkad? (At the moment of the screenshot none of the AI have any remaining duplicate luxuries.)

 

[Fish Man]

I actually do have a third worker - you can just barely make out the corner of his icon in Dur-Kurigalzu. I built 2 of them and stole one from Mombasa. How does one steal more than one worker without incurring a permanent diplomatic hit? Also, the reason I don't have more farms at this point is that I spend most of the first 100 turns developing luxury resources for happiness and horses for gold; should I ignore the gold and build farms instead? If so, won't I have to hard build all the libraries?


My capital build order was similar to what you wrote, (with a second worker instead of a third settler), but I think I built the caravan before the library because I figured there was no point in finishing the library in the capital 12 turns before the library in the second city finished. Perhaps the difference is that I should build the library before the granary in my second city? (I usually follow Tabarnak's 3 cities tradition guide.) Does the little bit of extra science really make up for the loss in growth?

Also, there is a reason for the placement of Akkad which was cropped out of the screenshot: two tiles below Akkad is a cocoa resource, my third unique luxury. You'll notice that I'm treading water happiness-wise as it is; how would I have supported two coastal cities instead of Akkad? (At the moment of the screenshot none of the AI have any remaining duplicate luxuries.)

What difficulty is this? May I have the map so I can play it out for a bit?

 

[pwsiegel]

What difficulty is this? May I have the map so I can play it out for a bit?

The difficulty is emperor. I would love to post a save game, but I can't figure out where they are on my hard drive (I'm running Ubuntu, and it's not as straightforward as it is on Windows...) I'll try to get back to you.

 

[Fish Man]

The difficulty is emperor. I would love to post a save game, but I can't figure out where they are on my hard drive (I'm running Ubuntu, and it's not as straightforward as it is on Windows...) I'll try to get back to you.

It should be in the My Games folder, if there is one on Ubuntu.

 

[phillipwyllie]

I've been playing on emperor....

This is your problem. On Deity the AI starts with half(it seems) the Ancient era techs which for you means cheaper early techs, assuming you meet everyone. Although not impossible to achieve a pre t200 SV on Emperor I'd wager it would be easier on Deity on with the same map and civs.
SV requires more than just science but an understanding of how you build the SS quickly. Read Acken's Freedom SV guide for more details. On DCL#20-Spain Acken posted a t198 SV, and I a t250 SV. Even though Acken achieved Plastics at t162(iirc) and I t169 he beat me by a clear 50 turns. Most likely down to my inability to fully understand how to build the SS quickly(gold GS generation etc...). OK I know how to build the SS quickly but I always want to build an empire to stand the test of time......

 

[Acken]

No those benchmark are not a load of crap and probably would lead to something like T250 science victory. Some have even got way better results than that with a combination of a good civ and good terrain.

Most of the advice on this thread are sound.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Nice Babylon map

You obviously need to farm those rivers ASAP, that's the only thing I can think of. You probably should have build Granary/Library/WaterMill in your expos and traded for luxes so as not to bother with circuses early