Quintillus's Quartermaster Quest

[Quintillus]

Figured I might as well add a couple write-ups as I submit stories. In general, I'm not a top-notch civ player; I'm too much of a builder and can't be bothered to micromanage enough to beat Sid. However, I can be an opportunistic HOF-slot contributor. Thus, over the last 8 years I've been make a slow-motion attempt at the Quartermasters list. So far, I'm a Pentathlete.

Tonight, I decided to try for a Tiny Demigod Space Race. For background info, I've never won on Demigod before. So it was a questionable quest, but I needed a Demigod win for Octathlon, and there were only 5 games on this chart. All I had to do was win, and I'd have the toughest remaining part of Octathlon done. That would leave only Emperor - which, for some reason, I have as my Histographic, but am missing in Fastest Finishes .

After a couple false starts, as the Inca and Egyptians, I rolled the Iroquois with a two-cow grasslands-bordering-tundra start, with a hut by my capital. Not exactly the bee's knees, but the two cows and hut made it worth playing. I settled in place, and popped a Warrior from the hut. Since the hut was west of my capital, I sent the Warrior west, and happened across the French Warrior-Settler pair, which included their bonus settler. Figuring that since it was only 3800 BC, the worst that could come of an attack was restarting, I declared war - and my conscript defeated their regular Warrior, and their settler. This was the first bit of good fortune.

I send the workers back and had them join Salamanca to jump-start its growth, and claimed the rich area that France had tried to claim as my own. Play was certainly sub-optimal during the expansion phase - riots due to not being used to only one citizen being born content, accidentally re-joining a Settler to its own city due to hitting the 'b' key at the wrong time. But I was out-expanding France nonetheless, which gave me hope.

My other opponent was America. Around 1125 BC, they DOW'ed me, and took a Settler who I'd sent out to claim some free land. I'd intentionally researched Writing to make alliances, and though I'd planned to have a few more Mounted Warriors ready first, faced with this, I allied with France against America. Situationally, I was surrounded on three sides by water, with France in the west; America was to the north of France.

The initial battles were, again, less than ideal; I was playing too quickly and lost some Mounted Warriors due to too aggressive of tactics. But it wasn't long until I pillaged their iron on the west coast (although they wound up connecting another), and after a few hundred years I got 8-10 Mounted Warriors together to march on Washington. This succeeded, and I wound up taking three cities in quick succession, for a total of 4, which France took 2 as well.

The next part of the plan was to fight France, who was still weaker than America had been due to their lost Settler. Conveniently, I could stage Mounted Warriors within one-turn striking distance of both Paris and Lyons, and I took them both on the first turn, along with France's Iron. They did take Washington and Boston from me, but without their core were not much of a threat. In 10-20 turns, they were defeated.

At that point it was clean-up duty. I took America's last city on the continent, leaving them a 3-tile island. At this point it was around 10 BC, and I was still in Despotism. I quickly revolted to Republic, invested heavily in Libaries (and later Universities), and it was a beeline towards spaceships, resulting in a spaceship win in 1675.

In a year or two, I'll probably play another HOF game, and bump the thread.

Edit: Forgot to mention it also took my Space Race place, which was the lowest of my completed Machiavellis, from 9th to 4th. That's a lot more secure!

 

[CKS]

Congratulations! Winning on Demigod is an accomplishment.

I notice that you only need 20k for Machiavelli. There aren't a lot of easy 20k pickings, mostly because I sucked up a lot of them - you'll find me at the bottom of most of the lists. However, huge emperor has an empty slot, and large emperor and regent have reasonably achievable dates (tiny emperor isn't too bad). The 20k emperor games would give you the game you need for Octathlete, too. In one game you'll be a Quartermaster. Go for it now, before the easy slots in 20k disappear.

By the way: Beating Sid does not require micromanaging. It just requires starting many times until you find an island of your own that is not too small, but small enough to put a unit on each tile adjacent to the water, and all the AI trapped on their own islands so that they drown in unit support. It is pretty doable for a mediocre player like myself, but it isn't what I'd call fun.

 

[Quintillus]

Five years later, I'm returning to that Tiny Emperor 20K attempt.

First try, I play as Quintillus of the Romans. Play peacefully, start with two cows and seven hills around Rome. Only problem, the Tiber isn't there. This will prove a fatal flaw, as it hampers Rome's growth and thus production, and worse, the plains nearby can't be irrigated till works chain-irrigate from the nearest river. A good into, ended in 1650 AD with 11,185 culture. May play it through at some point, as it's an interesting setup. I'm halfway through the Industrial Age and am aligned with Spain against the Germans, who have gone Fascist and are numerous, though thankfully not yet that advanced. Still, it will be a struggle to gain Rubber and eventual victory. I could probably stalemate my way to a 20K, but where's the fun in that?

Second try, I play as Xerxes of the Persians. This was another two cow start, with only three hills, but a lake for fresh water. Persepolis spawned two Settlers which slowed down growth a bit and I was not paying close attention to city growth and had occasional rebellions until I got a couple luxuries hooked up. Combat went well this time though. I parked Spearmen outside of India's cities and successfully hindered their growth, then used Ancient Cavalry to conquer America with stunning speed. This gave me total dominance, and I could focus on culture. In the end, I won in 1806, forty years (twenty turns) too later.

Third try, I play as Bismarck of the Germans. No cows, but two oases, lots of floodplain for growth, and three mountains, two of which have gold. This would prove the least successful attempt, being abandoned in 590 AD after the Ottomans declared war on me, already being tech equals in the Middle Ages, and took my only Iron city, which I had admittedly taken from them. I managed to snag the Sistine thanks to a prebuild, but it was clear I wasn't going to be able to build enough Wonders to win in time.

Fourth try was promising. I played as Cleopatra of the Egyptians, situated between France and England. I build Zeus again, and use Ancient Cavalry and War Chariots to attack whomever is closest to building a Wonder; only England finishes one, the Colossus. Thebes has 4 hills, flood plains, iron, a horse, and elephants, and by the time I win in 1810, it has 155 production per turn, including civil engineers. But I didn't get enough high-culture wonders early enough to reach the HOF. Although I boomed heavily in the Industrial Era, with workers swarming to build rails on all 20 tiles in the BFC in record time, and rushes/disbands to hurry factories/coal plants/nuclear plants/manufacturing plants, the takeaway was that the early game culture, and perhaps some luck with SGLs, was critical.

Fifth try was with Carthage and I got TGL immediately upon slingshotting Literature, a boon for a very early culture doubling. I attempted to replicate my Persia vs India strategy and declared on China, parking Numidians around Beijing. In retrospect, I should have left them there and built Settlers everywhere to boost science and let Carthage build whatever it wanted. Instead, I went for the jugular and attacked Beijing, and my Numidians were destroyed. China counter-attacked, and eventually conquered Carthage, making Utica the capital. We re-captured Carthage, and not all was lost as TGL still had 12 culture per turn, but the momentum was never regained. Peace was made with China, but Portugal invaded, conquering Utica, giving Carthage more culture thanks to the Palace, but sapping our science. With culture well below the other games, this one was abandoned in 260 AD.

 

[Quintillus]

Sixth try is the most promising yet, also as Carthage. Started with two wheat, a cow, and a fish, along with two hills and two forests that I elected not to chop until Railroads. Start next to Portugal who is between myself and England. The build order:

- Warriors x3 for scout/MP
- Granary for growth
- Settler, founds Utica
- Granary in Utica for settler farm
- Colossus (1725 BC) for science
- Slingshot Literature
- Library (1550 BC)/Great Library (800 BC)
- Research Republic, science printer goes "brrr"

I then built:

- Hanging Gardens, 450 BC (snagging it away from the AIs)
- Mausoleum, 290 BC
- Zeus, 130 BC
- Oracle, 270 AD
- Sistine, 560 AD
- Shakespeare's, 770 AD (barely too late for culture doubling in time)
- Bach's, 780 AD (SGL boosted)
- Copernicus, 930 AD
- University, 1160 AD
- Temple, 1190 AD
- Cathedral, 1250 AD
- Heroic Epic, 1290 AD

Along the way, I fought an early and inconclusive war with Portugal, and then declared on England and brought Portugal in, making Portugal do all the hard work, before switching sides and helping England, taking four Portuguese cities including Lisbon. England and I both peaced Portugal, but sometime around 600 AD, England declared war on them again, and finished them off, switching to Monarchy in the process.

I was ahead by a decent amount tech-wise, but in 1000 AD, it was clear the English army approaching my lands was not merely on a scouting expedition, but rather, on a crusade to conquer us, or at least win a Domination Victory. The situation in 1030, when they had refused to leave:

This would be a war of existence, and I rued the day I had sold out Portugal for a few cities. We cash-rushed enough Musketmen and found enough Numidians nearby to have even odds in the first wave, with our Ancient Cavalry in reserve in Emerita and just east of it. The walls held off the first wave, the cavalry stormed in and defeated the second, and the third (the MDI/Pikes in the screenshot) did not have enough steam to take Guimaraes, either, though they did pillage the Saltpeter. So the war settled into a positional battle. We would send our Muskets and some workers to the Saltpeter, rebuild the road, and build a Barricade, and try to attack the English in the Grasslands with Longbows and Ancient Cavalry, though some would slip through to the forest; Numidians guarded the Hills behind out lines. The English had impressive numbers. But they had not yet connected the Saltpeter or Horses they had conquered from the Portuguese, though the former they would do fairly soon, ending any possibility of a successful counter-attack.

Still out-sciencing them, we soon decided the way ahead was not cash-rushing Muskets and Longbows, but the Industrial Era. A plan was hatched:

Spoiler Plan :

The first priority was the two red stars - protect the northwest with a Barricade at Lagos, and pillage/Barricade the Saltpeter at Coimbra, preventing the English from building Cavalry, and gradually wearing down their Musketmen.

Secondary were the two orange stars and capturing Oporto, protecting our heartland.

Tertiary were capturing the Horses in the south, preventing Knights, and taking the city of Évora in the north, the easier of the two sources of Iron to conquer, and a prerequisite for Industrialization.

Now it's entirely possible that making peace and trading for exorbitantly priced iron - if they'd even trade it at all - is the right call for 20K, but the English want to see us eliminated, and even if they don't accomplish that, with only 30% of the land, they could feasibly win a Domination victory before we win 20K, especially if they focus on culture while at peace. With their main attack blunted, digging in and looking for eventual victory seemed the right call.

And so, we fought them for more than three hundred years.

The situation in 1320:

Spoiler :

Mission A had been accomplished. And just in a nick of time - the English would send three Cavalry at us, who apparently were being trained when we pillaged their Saltpeter; we later saw a Knight. Keeping that Saltpeter was a huge priority, and we thus never attempted to disconnect the nearby Dyes, even if it might have hurt English productivity.

The other priorities? Not even attempted, keeping the English at bay was all we could do, especially as Zeus went obsolete and our cities adjusted - rather poorly - to the new, more expensive units. Still in a Republic, War Weariness is a problem, and I'm considering starting a revolution once Replaceable Parts is researched in a turn and we have some Infantry and perhaps a few Artillery. Some more unit support would be great too, although war weariness is the real problem. We're losing money at 50% science with 20% luxuries, and if it gets worse, we'd probably be better off with a different government.

Or we could make peace now, and let England build a zillion Cavalry, and... yeah, that's not happening.

Still, our three Armies (one of which is empty for want of Cavalry) give us hope. One Musketman in Oporto was opportunistically defeated. Numidians are still the largest part of our Army, but we have nine Riflemen, only four of whom are tied up blockading Saltpeter and Lagos. If we can surge forward and at least take Evora before England gets Nationalism, then perhaps, victory can eventually be ours. We have all the coal, if we ever get a taste of Iron, we could rule the Industrial Era, not them!

 

[Quintillus]

Curse the Internet!

Alright, so it's not that bad, I only would have won by 20K in 1796 - an improvement over 1806 and 1810, but not enough of one for the HOF Table.

I continued fighting England, and eventually made the almost-certainly-poor-decision to revolt, with war weariness having increased yet more and proving extremely problematic, even with 30% luxuries. I decided to try the only government I cannot remember ever trying in Civ III - fascism. It made a small amount of sense, too - no war weariness and high unit support. Plus, the 200% worker speed proved useful and industrializing extremely quickly. I almost always have Industrialization first, but this time I didn't have Iron until right about the time the revolution ended. So, it came in handy.

England was conquered, but the path wasn't easy. They captured Lisbon before I conquered anywhere. But Oporto was conquered soon thereafter, and that slowed their advance, and my increasing number of Cavalry Armies helped too. Perhaps what helped the most, however, was that England's war weariness was just as bad as mine, and they weren't using the lux slider. I was wondering why their cities were shrinking, as they couldn't use forced labor, and didn't have Nationalism when they started shrinking, so they couldn't be drafting. I eventually realized it must be because they had so many Entertainers that they couldn't feed everyone. Along with that problem, their waves of troops tapered off significantly. There were a few more Cavalry that must have been in-training, but had I realized how close England was to collapse, I probably would have stuck it out in Republic long enough to deal them a heavy blow, and returned later to finish the job.

The worst part of revolting was that culture doesn't accrue during anarchy, and I had 8 turns of it. So I would have won in 1780, all else equal, had I not revolted. Still too slow by seven turns.

Would all else have been equal? I can see arguments both ways. Republic may have helped research things faster, and I eventually (in the 1600s) ran out of stuff to build. But even with its pop loss, Fascism helped me with production, which had been a major problem in a heavily war-weary Republic, and going in reverse. The speedy railroad building further that boost. And that boost helped give me things to build - such as Wall Street. Republic likely would have been a bit faster, but I was still 4-or-5 turning most techs. All in all, I don't think the loss of the Commerce Bonus cost me 5 turns, and aside from the anarchy it was probably within a couple turns either way.

And while I expected Xenophobia to protect me from culture expansion and thus a Domination victory, it turns out I'd assimilated most of the English and Portuguese population by the time the Internet was invented.

I think there were two main problems.

One, the focus on warfare came at the expense of building the core. Universities, markets, etc. As Egypt, I soared to the Modern Era, but as Carthage, the economy was sputtering as I entered the Industrial Era. The war, more than the type of government, hampered research.

But two, still not cranking out enough wonders quickly enough in the early days. Bach's/Shakespeare's 120 turns earlier would have saved three turns. A little more here, a little more there, could have added up.

To that point, I got three SGLs in this game, but none very early. 780 AD for Bach's, 1630 AD for the Military Academy (I got three techs in one turn thanks to ToE, and that was the only culture building left), and 1768 AD for the Internet. Having two in the Ancient Era could make a huge difference. I think for my next attempt, I'll go pure Republic Slingshot (Literature afterwards, the AI never prioritizes it), and focus on science all the way, trying to maximize those SGL odds, and at least trying to move up Bach's/Sistine/Shakespeare. Another cow would be keen, too.

 

[Quintillus]

Attempt 6 was as Korea. I decided to aim for the Standard Chieftain 20K slot this time, needing a 1660 victory so 26 turns quicker, but focusing on the fundamentals of culture generation, not being distracted by AIs that can be a real threat either militarily or by building wonders. I also studied one of Denniz's 20K games, where multiple save files were submitted, to gain insights.

Seoul was a pretty good city:

36 SPT pre-rails. Unfortunate that there was a lake. Build a Temple (2670 BC), the Pyramids (1475 BC), Oracle (1025 BC), Mausoleum (750 BC), Library (510 BC), Great Library (190 BC), Artemis (190 AD), Cathedral (270 AD), Colosseum (300 AD), University (330 AD), and Shakespeare's (480 AD). The latter was off of a Sistine prebuild, the first time I had swung Shakespeare before Sistine or Bach's, and the Cathedral/Colosseum/University trifecta was inspired by Denniz. Then the Hanging Gardens were in 590, and the Great Wall in 680, after I received the above SGL to build Bach's with.

I got more culture than in attempts 1-5. By 1400, I had 11,986, at 120/turn. This was on pace for turn 337, or 1735 AD. Would be good enough on Emperor, but not on Chieftain. Needing to shave 15 of those 67 remaining turns off, or an average rate of 155 shields/turn, I concluded victory was not at hand.

Korea's Scientific trait was great for staying ahead-of-time in tech, and combined with Commercial I was 4-turning the Industrial Age with money to spare. I also got better at gold-rushing my way to quicker progress. Conquered 36% of the world, just the productive parts, conquering the non-tundra/jungle parts of Japan and Mongolia. Wound up with five luxes, although I'd need to hate on the Khan some more to secure Rubber. All in all a very nice builder game.

 

[Quintillus]

Attempt 7 did not go so well. I tried Babylon. Had plenty of Hills, Forest, and Mountains, along with Incense, Deer, and Iron. Proved to not have enough food to take advantage of all the hills. But I think the bigger flaw was attempting to use my second city - Nineveh - to supercharge Babylon's population growth. It kept Nineveh tiny, and still wasn't enough to make Babylon great. Building to 3-4 cities first likely would have been better - I then could have swarmed Babylon with workers.

Built Temple (3550 BC), Oracle (1475 BC), Great Library (650 BC), Library (590 BC), Mausoleum (310 BC), Pyramids (250 AD). Well behind the pace of the Korean game. In 10 AD, Babylon had pop 8 at 16 SPT; Seoul had pop 12 at 27 SPT. Probably not a good enough map, either. Would have been a fun one for domination against a Monarch-ish level AI; I had tons of open lands, with only the Khan was out to the east, and he was expanding to the east for some reason.

 

[Quintillus]

Attempt 8 is the winner! I played as India, who does not have a single entry on the 20K HOF charts. Commercial/Religious. No cows either, probably also unheard of on the 20K charts, but Hindus don't eat cows. Instead, there was three Wine, five hills including a gold hill, and a forest that avoided being chopped, for the extra shield (unknown to me at the time, it wound up having a shield bonus when chopped).

Delhi in 720 AD, when it was making its peak of 27 SPT pre-industrialization:

27 SPT isn't amazing, but it reached much of its potential early. It was already at 25 SPT and pop 12 in 10 AD, nearly as good as Seoul, and a well-timed Golden Age in 590 BC under Republic gave it 30 SPT (slightly more once it grew to size 11) and great growth.

Progress was also boosted when Delhi popped a Settler from the tile NW/W of it in 3500 BC, meaning I never had to build a Settler and could spend the 30 shields and all-important 2 pop on building. The benefits of playing on Chieftain, this probably outweighed the cows. I built Temple (3450 BC), Colossus (1990 BC), Library (1625 BC), Great Library (710 BC), Artemis via SGL (610 BC, best SGL timing yet, triggering the Golden Age), Oracle (430 BC), Mausoleum (310 BC), Colosseum (230 BC), Cathedral (150 BC), and Zeus (10 AD). Four more buildings in the BC era than either of my Korea or Babylon games. The SGL/Golden Age combo was huge.

I also fixed a mistake from the previous games' setup, using Sedentary Barbs rather than No Barbs, for huts. This paid off hugely with the Settler, but I only popped one other hut, rather than the planned "pop half the Ancient Age and reach the Middle Ages super early". Instead, the Khan popped most of the huts, including stealing one that my Warrior was waiting beside right before I finished TGL. Still got an early Middle Ages though, with the Golden Age propelling the Cathedral forward. I also focused my research a bit more on trying to research things first for SGLs, for example going for Feudalism/Engineering after Free Artistry, rather than Astronomy/Music Theory, though only Polytheism granted the favor of the gods.

Later, I'd build Pyramids (290 AD), University (330 AD), Great Wall (450 AD), Shakespeare's (630 AD), Hanging Gardens (750 AD), and Knights Templar (870 AD). Then Newton's (1030), Copernicus (1160), Sistine (1260), Bach's (1300; 80 SPT with rails + factory/coal = 8 turns!), Universal Suffrage (1350), and Evolution (1395). Also added a Harbor before Evolution so I could join workers and get science from the coast.

As of 1400, I'm on pace for 10th place! Ninth is not out of the question either. Currently trying to build Sun Tzu's before the Khan. Who is surprisingly the only rival we haven't fought. Took Elephantine (dyes) from Egypt along with their capital when they refused to give me Monarchy, Nanking (silks) and Beijing (spices) and many other productive cities from China, and conquered Babylon, my nearest neighbor, completely. I just built the Forbidden Palace in Nineveh, and plan to help it eclipse Babylon in splendor. The Khan was surprised when I refused to give him Monotheism after I'd caved to the Mongols and Babylon in the Ancient Age (I had one Warrior defending about a dozen cities, the other few Warriors off exploring). But he didn't declare war, and we have enough luxuries (7) that we likely won't go conquering his Gems.

I'll finish the game before long, but first it's time to celebrate with a nice vegetarian curry.

 

[Quintillus]

Made a vegetarian channa masala to celebrate; to make the same one, point your gopher to gopher://sdf.org/0/users/sanjuro/indian-food/chana-masala-chickpea-curry.txt . Recommended, although watch those teaspoons versus tablespoons in the instructions.

Finished with a 1630 victory, not quite matching 9th (1615), but seven turns faster than 10th (1665). I'm pretty happy with that for only having one SGL. Finished with Sun Tzu's (1435), Leonardo's (1475), Research Lab (1485), Magellan's (1510), Wall Street (1530), Smith's (1570), and the Heroic Epic (1600). The latter was conspicuously missing in terms of culture-per-shield, as my wars had mostly been fought with Regular-trained Ancient Cavalry, and ended too quickly to get many Elites, let alone leaders. So, to six that problem, I decided it was time to hate on the Khan, take those Gems, and fish for leaders. Thus, we sent in a motley crew of Tanks, War Elephants, Mechanized Infantry, and Ancient Cavalry, and it was the latter that produced the leader. For the attack on Tabriz, the Ancient Cavalry even survived where the Tank it was sent in with did not.

I wound up with 45% of the land area, carefully avoiding The Internet with an excess of caution to avoid suddenly gaining 21% land area through border expansion. Delhi was producing 149 culture per turn, with 20,038 overall.

 

[Quintillus]

Things I've Learned

First, a summary of how each attempt went, culture-wise. X-axis is turns played, Y-axis is culture, civs are in the legend in the order attempted. Emperor and Chieftain games both present.

From the chart, one can see that it's generally clear by turn 170 (550 AD), and certainly by 200 (850 AD) whether the game is on track, and for the really early dates, it's generally clear by turn 128 (10 AD). The Egypt game had the best catch-up trend, but even that ran out of steam, as there were fewer older buildings to double in culture. The slowdown for Carthage was an 8-turn anarchy, which leads to the first item learned:

1. Religious is a useful trait

For multiple reasons. To paraphrase Ben Franklin, a turn of anarchy saved is a turn of culture earned. Two government changes is only possible if Religious, but even if you only flip once, you are saving (most likely) 4-7 turns, which is a lot in these competitive tables. Seven turns is how much quicker the India finish was than the prior 10th-place entrant.

But also, religious traits start with Ceremonial Burial, allowing super-early Temples for a quick start, and an easy path to The Oracle, which gives 4 culture for 300 shields, a good rate. Cheap Cathedrals also can be built a bit quicker.

2. Culture Efficiency is Important

I found myself thinking in terms of efficiency per 100 shields. The Pyramids has an efficiency of 1, as it costs 400 shields and gives 4 culture. The Oracle is good because it has an efficiency of 1.33. The Status of Zeus is great with an efficiency of 2.

Later on, while production rates are higher, efficiency is generally lower. The UN has an efficiency of 0.25; SETI is 0.3, Sun Tzu's is 0.33. I would almost always build the most efficient building first, a rare exception being when I had a Scientific Great Leader and would finish something ASAP with shields and then rush the next thing.

3. Non-Wonder Culture Buildings Are Important, and Should be Built Quickly

Most non-wonder culture buildings - cathedrals, universities, Colosseums - are pretty culturally-efficient. The Colosseum's efficiency is 1.67, eclipsed by few wonders, for example. And if you are religious or scientific, those buildings are extra efficient. I would often build these as soon as they were available, especially on lower difficulty where the risk of the AI finishing a wonder was low.

Going along with this, rushing these is a good idea. If you can spend 6 turns on a Cathedral, or chop/disband and build in 1 turn, the latter is worth it. Note that rushing costs double if there is no progress, so keeping a cheap unit in the capital to disband is a good idea.

4. A laser-like focus is required

When playing a regular game and going for 20K, I tend to play Civ and build culture, but do other things here. When playing for a HOF table, all else must be secondary. Did the Zulu just declared war on you? No, your capital is not going to build a Rifleman, or be drafted from. Are your people unhappy? No, a Market isn't the answer, try the luxury slider instead. Markets take away from building culture.

Similarly, whereas normally I'd make sure a Zeus city had a barracks, barracks don't add culture, so Regular Ancient Cavalry was the order of the day. Thankfully, those guys still usually win.

5. The rest of the empire serves to help your capital

And that's its only job. What that means can vary, but whereas I usually play to optimize the empire, in this case suboptimal empire play may be optimal.

One of the things this means is the empire must always stay ahead of the capital's ability to build cultural buildings. If you run out of cultural buildings, the rest of the empire has failed the capital. Thus, science is important.

Another is that the order of building things in the empire may be different. I found myself building Research Labs before Factories, because science was more important than production. Hoover's Dam, normally an insta-build, was skipped in my Korean and Indian games, because it was not the optimal culture-efficiency building. Other cities could spend their time building power plants, and manually converting from coal to hydro if they had shields to spare. Sun Tzu's was usually built quite late if at all, so manual barracks builds were done.

A third is that sometimes this means letting your other cities be underdeveloped, to hyperdevelop the capital. In a normal game, I wouldn't send most of my workers to the capital or build workers just to join them to the capital, but in a 20K game, I would.

6. Conquest is Only Important for the Heroic Epic, Wonder-Prevention, Resources, and Science

And may be counter-productive otherwise, see also my accidental Domination Victory.

The Heroic Epic is highly cultural efficient (efficiency 2.0), so it's worth fishing for a leader. And if you can interfere with AI wonder construction, that's great.

But generally, your cities would be better off building science rather than units of conquest, especially on higher difficulties. If you can snag additional productive cities, that's great, but if you're building Cavalry instead of Universities and you don't have a good queue of culture buildings to build, you are risking losing culture.

7. The Map Matters, but Good Play Matters Just as Much

I played probably every 4th to 10th map generated. Being able to generate shields in the capital is super important, and having a river (and thus not needing an Aqueduct) is very important. But you don't necessarily need three cows to get an 8th to 10th place spot. Some extra food is important, but as seen in my eventual success where the extra food was three wine, you don't necessarily need a ton.

However, some of my failures were on promising maps. Sloppy play, becoming distracted by non-20K priorities, or gambles that backfire can all doom a promising map. And figuring out how to play differently than when you have other objectives is just as important as having a great map but not being in a 20K mindset.

8. Don't Chop All the Forests

In my Korea game, I wound up lowering my shield count by chopping forests pre-industrial. Forests are your friends, with their 2 shields, provided you have enough food to make use of them after all your hills (and, sometimes, mountains) are accounted for. Only chop if it won't limit your pre-industrial shield potential.

9. Zeus is the Best Wonder

Especially on smaller maps, the Statue of Zeus is incredible. Hugely culture-efficient (2.0), and Ancient Cavalry can wreck their opponents - without even triggering a Despotism Golden Age! In my Persia game, four Ancient Cavalry kicked America to the curb. In my India game, half a dozen Ancient Cavalry made quick work of Egypt and China in succession, and with a few reinforcements proceeded to capture Babylon. With very little investment in other military units in either case, freeing the cities to focus on their main mission of helping the capital.

If I had to pick one resource to be near my capital (not necessarily BFC, but guaranteed within second-city distance), it would be Ivory.

10. Pop the Huts, Go Sedentary Barbs

Popping huts can really speed up the Ancient Age, getting you to the culturally-rich Middle Ages more quickly, including to the all-important Shakespeare's Theater. Not only that, but it gets you to Education quickly, speeding up subsequent progress. A well-played hut popping strategy will likely yield being well ahead of your capital's ability to build wonders, which is a nice luxury to have, as then you can always build the most efficient/AI-threatened wonder, and will also get to Factories and Railroads more quickly.

 

[Quintillus]

After getting that Chieftain win, I decided to go back to Emperor 20K for that last Octathlon win.

Attempt Eight was as France. Got a very nice start, on par with my Korea game which was on Chieftain and thus far ahead of previous Emperor attempts. Unfortunately, the Dutch then came calling, and this is one of the pictures of the ensuring result:

Folks, if your 20K city is on the edge of your empire, guard it with more than a Pikeman or two. Especially if your neighbor built Zeus and is generally militarily competent.

Surprisingly, by itself, losing the 20K city wasn't necessarily the death knell of the attempt; after cash-rushing the lost buildings, I'd only fallen to my previous-best-Emperor (Carthage) level of culture. But by this point I'd also lost the tech lead, and thus the ability to claim the most cultural wonders, with the path to reclaiming it guarded by Swiss Pikemen (the Dutch) and the Great Wall (England), exacerbated by not having any Saltpeter and thus Musketeers, and by now having corruption in Paris.

 

[Quintillus]

Attempt 10 is as the Celts on Emperor (Tiny).

I think it will be a winner as well. Settled in a fantastic location, with a cow, game, and two fish. Well, maybe not optimal-three-cow-40-SPT, but the whole area was nice too, optimal for me in terms of enough shields to get lots of culture, while also setting me up for doing well enough on Emperor to prevent the AIs from finishing wonders.

And, there was Ivory nearby. Definitely a winner.

What's not to love? Also have two of the three Irons in the world and two (of three? TBD) saltpeters, and great terrain for the surrounding cities. Admittedly, we've been adding extra forests for shields, including the Forest Cow, and once the last forest finishes, we'll have 30 SPT in Entremont, better than my India game. Which, so far, the culture has been just about on pace for; as of 720 AD, I had marginally more culture but marginally less new culture per turn. Looking at potentially an 8th place finish which will feel more secure than 10th - and also fulfill the last needed entry for Octathalon.

I built Temple (2950 BC), Colossus (1910 BC), Zeus (1400 BC), Pyramids (1350 BC via SGL from Writing), Library (1150 BC), Great Library (530 BC), Artemis (50 BC), Mausoleum (130 AD), Cathedral (210), University (320), Heroic Epic (410), and Shakespeare's (610). In retrospect, I should have cash-rushed a Colosseum in there too, that was a missed opportunity. I did cash-rush a Harbor after Shakespeare's to propel shields from 23 to 30, easily worth the 1 turn with a Warrior disband.

Shakespeare's was 2 turns earlier than as India, 16 turns earlier than as Carthage, but 13 turns later than as Korea. However, culturally, I did much better earlier thanks in part to SGL luck; I only had the Temple, Pyramids, and Oracle by 1000 BC as Korea, but gained the Colossus, Zeus, and Library in exchange for the Oracle in this game - 7 culture per turn, or 14 post-doubling.

Industrial Age date will be 820 AD, also one of the better games, notably I am a couple techs ahead of my India game. This should propel shields forward, and is being optimized in part by skipping Economics, Navigation, and even Music Theory, which in early attempts was a high research priority. I am being forced to make the difficult decision to skip the Great Lighthouse, Great Wall, and Knights Templar, worth 2 culture apiece (too late for doubling), in favor of reaching rails faster and thus completing Newtons/Sistine/Bachs/Cops/etc. more quickly. Not entirely sure if this is the right call, since that doesn't maximize cultural potential and it feels a bit wrong, but more culture sooner seems like the right call. Hopefully, I'll be breezing through the Industrial Age so quickly that I don't even miss them.

 

[Quintillus]

Finished the Celtic game. Additional culture buildings were Hanging Gardens (730), Newton's (880), Copernicus (970), Sistine (1060), Bach's (1150), Colosseum (1160, should have built earlier), Magellan's (1220), Pentagon (1230, via MGL), Theory of Evolution (1285), Wall Street (1310, not available in 1230), Smith's (1355), Universal Suffrage (1410), Research Lab (1415), Sun Tzu's (1460), United Nations (1520), SETI (1565), Leonardo's (1595), and Apollo Program (1615). Feels odd building Sun Tzu's after Research Lab, and Leonardo's after the UN. But it resulted in a 1635 AD 20K victory, good for 8th. Could have switched gears and had a 10th-place Space Race instead, likely 1710.

The minimap:

Entremont is highlighted. The setup was very good, with the rich core, and both Korea and America being east of the bottleneck, which due to being Jungle, slowed their expansion to the west. In the replay, I learned that I had nearly kept up with them in peaceful expansion, IIRC being only one city behind Korea, and on par with America. Zeus + two or three Gallic Swordsmen from Alesia quickly evened the odds, as I declared war on both of them at the same time and took the jungle cities and several Settler pairs, ensuring I had the whole western area, and then razed Seoul before making peace, regrouping, and 20 turns later taking Namp'o and Wonsan to reduce their competitiveness and open a path to America (I later re-settled Seoul's location, just east of the bottleneck, and built one city just north of it). Then it was a march to the sea via Atlanta to prevent America from building the Hanging Gardens in Atlanta and, less imminently, Sun Tzu's in Washington. Only Boston was allowed to continue its existence, culture-free, as it provided a convenient base for healing and striking out against any attempts to re-colonize the area.

Which they did, with a pattern of they'd settle enough to disrupt one of my luxury colonies, and I'd declare war and reduce their size. Korea got a couple Pikes and three or so Medieval Infantry, but that was the most threatening units I ever faced, and later on I ensured no one ever had Iron. As a result, I used my elite Ancient Cavalry and Gallic Swordsmen to leader fish, winding up with 4 MGLs, for one "real" Ancient Cavalry army plus two empty armies, and the Pentagon being rushed. I didn't keep the MGL for Wall Street as it was too many turns away and I didn't want to keep the leader slot busy lest I get an SGL roll. Korea was finally forced off the continent around 1600, as I leader fished one last time in hopes of being able to rush Apollo. No luck with that, but overall MGL luck was pretty good considering the Celts aren't Militaristic (tell that to the Romans! especially the Republican Romans before they met the Germans!).

The economy was also humming. Despite my Standard India game having considerably more land area, India's economy only eclipsed the Celtic one in GNP very near the end of the game, and the Celts retained the production edge, despite irrigating much of my productive lands (outside Entremont) late in the game for additional Science specialists. I four-turned everything in the Modern Age and almost if not everything in the Industrial Age, although Computers, Nuclear Power, and Miniaturization required some University/Research Lab rushing and worker-joining to eke out with just barely 4 turns as early Modern techs. I attribute the great economy to the start location with lots of productive Grassland/Hills, versus India's "Delhi is great but south of it is a jungle", as well as Entremont not starting out surrounded by sea on three sides meaning less corruption/waste. In the end, India's population of 27.25 million paled compared to the 39.7 million Celts crammed into a smaller land area, with the largest city being a size 31 city of population 4.999 million.

One thing I tried differently this game, not really 20K-relevant but interesting, was relocating existing cities to better minimize overlap. In particular, I'd settled Camulodunum and Richborough without full knowledge of how the map would wind up, and moved them each one tile NE once Hospitals were around, to reduce competition with their neighbors. This had mixed results. Camulodunum's replacement, Axima, became that largest city of 4.999 million after I told the governor to emphasize food, and watched it grow like a weed. Richborough's replacement, however, suffered from greater corruption than its predecessor to a more noticeable extent, and never eclipsed its potential or used the extra sea tiles it had been granted, ending at size 14.

 

[Quintillus]

With that, my Quartermaster Quest is complete. I did the math, and assuming none of my games falls in rank, and that the Celtic game is accepted (India now has been), have calculated my future score:

7 - Machiavelli average
6.8 - Pentathalon average
7.17 - Octathalon average
9.06 - Histographic

= 30.03

== 7.51

That will put me at 38th place on the quartermaster list! Which will be out of 38, but as my doctor friend says, what do they call the doctor who finishes last in his class? "Doctor". And for me, that was always the slow-motion goal; just getting to the Second Quartile list had been an accomplishment.

It's worth noting here that the Hall of Fame site constitutes my first memories of CivFanatics, and possibly the first part of CivFanatics that I discovered. I remember being over at a friend's house a few years before I joined CFC, and we'd been playing Civ III in a cooperative single player game, and for some reason decided to look up "best Civ III scores" or something like that on the Internet, and wound up at the Hall of Fame. This was probably in the latter half of 2003, maybe 2004, as I'd acquired Civ III (vanilla) in the summer of '03, and over the course of 2003-2004 I'd migrate to a different core group of friends. But compared to the Chieftain and perhaps Warlord games in my local Hall of Fame, and what my friend had scored, the scores and fastest finishes seemed impossibly impressive. Even more so, that someone had actually beaten Diety left an impression. That there were players better than us was not surprising, but that there were players that good was impressive.

At the time, and even for several years after joining, the idea that I could be competitive enough to be listed there didn't occur to me. I submitted my Histographic game in the fall of 2010, having decided that I could at least be on that list. But a few days later I scored a 9th place Small Chieftain Spaceship finish (maybe higher than 9th then, I don't remember), and that was the kernel of possibility. I'd check off 100K, Diplo, and Domination in 2011, all on Monarch or lower, have a game in each of 2012 and 2014 that would later fall off the lists, find that Conquest win on a Huge Regent map in 2016, and then the Demigod game that started this thread in 2018. At the time, that "Demigod or higher" game, which was the equivalent of the Vanilla Diety game that had seemed so imposing in circa 2003, was the most intimidating one on the list.

In the end, 20K was a lot harder than Demigod, aided by the fact that my standard of play had improved from Regent when I joined CivFanatics, to Monarch a year or two later, to Emperor, and by now I can pretty reliably beat Emperor if my 3050 BC status doesn't look like this:

And even that's not a total lost cause these days. I played that one through to 950 BC, obviously not with any real hope of a 20K victory, escaping to the southeast (ironically, towards Berlin), settling on a Hill, rushing a Spearmen/Walls, and defeating an uncountable number of German archers, before getting a Military Great Leader and being reminded that you can't form an army until you have 4 cities.

So, that's it. I can't promise I won't submit a few more games, round out those tips & tricks into a full-fledged strategy article (note to self: build out the Forest Management section and add pollution patrols/pop size optimization), or try to reach the lofty heights of 37th place. But don't worry, Spoonwood, your first place rank is safe, and so is CKS at 22nd, and probably superslug as well at 36th. I have learned from competing in the HOF (especially for 20K), but the heights of the top finishes remains Olympian in comparison.

 

[CKS]

Congratulations!

The 20k tables are pretty solid, so getting on one is a significant accomplishment.

 

[Spoonwood]

You have a lot of good points Quintillus, and I think I agree with well over the majority of what you say. Perhaps like 90% agreement.

That said, I'll still make some comments.

The Status of Zeus is great with an efficiency of 2.

That calculation underestimates the Statue of Zeus's power. In my experience, it helps a lot to get a Military Great Leader or two. But, then The Heroic Epic becomes a possibility, and that small wonder has a very good efficiency.

Did the Zulu just declared war on you? No, your capital is not going to build a Rifleman, or be drafted from

My mind works differently in that I wouldn't even think about building a rifleman to defend my capital anymore.

One thing I learned from playing island Deity/Demigod games (I think I already had learned the following by the time I played Sid 20k):

If your capital lies on a coast and has no units in it, and there's a landing spot directly adjacent to the capital, then the AIs will go for the capital. The upshot ends up significant in that as long as one gets enough units up to take out any landing force, there no longer exists any need for defensive units (at least before marines and Scandinavia is not in the world). Using that idea also makes for how I would spawn an MGL or two. Use some military units to block off some potential higher value landing spots near my capital. Leave the one shield tile open as a landing spot. Get an army of catapults/trebuchets/cannons up and some offensive units. Declare war with someone who can reach the island if necessary. Wait until they land units. Then bombard and kill those units.

Similarly, whereas normally I'd make sure a Zeus city had a barracks, barracks don't add culture, so Regular Ancient Cavalry was the order of the day.

I've made barracks, since veteran ancient cavalry can get a leader up more quickly. I never did calculations though on not having some culture a bit earlier vs. getting The Heroic Epic (and the low efficiency small military wonders) a bit earlier.

The 20k tables are pretty solid, so getting on one is a significant accomplishment.

I 100% agree with this.

 

[Quintillus]

My mind works differently in that I wouldn't even think about building a rifleman to defend my capital anymore.

One thing I learned from playing island Deity/Demigod games (I think I already had learned the following by the time I played Sid 20k):

If your capital lies on a coast and has no units in it, and there's a landing spot directly adjacent to the capital, then the AIs will go for the capital. The upshot ends up significant in that as long as one gets enough units up to take out any landing force, there no longer exists any need for defensive units (at least before marines and Scandinavia is not in the world). Using that idea also makes for how I would spawn an MGL or two. Use some military units to block off some potential higher value landing spots near my capital. Leave the one shield tile open as a landing spot. Get an army of catapults/trebuchets/cannons up and some offensive units. Declare war with someone who can reach the island if necessary. Wait until they land units. Then bombard and kill those units.

That's very interesting. I've noticed the proclivity of upper-tier games to prefer Archipelago, but hadn't realized the AI would so reliably land near undefended capitals, setting up an easy way to defeat their units. That the AI likes to land near undefended cities is not a surprise, but that an undefended capital is a magnet, even if there are other undefended cities? Very interesting.

I've made barracks, since veteran ancient cavalry can get a leader up more quickly. I never did calculations though on not having some culture a bit earlier vs. getting The Heroic Epic (and the low efficiency small military wonders) a bit earlier.

Yeah, this is one where a couple games later, with the knowledge of Heroic Epic giving 4 culture for 200 shields sinking in, I'm not sure makes sense anymore. It might be penny-wise but pound foolish, especially if Ancient Cavalry are a large part of the army, and especially if the civ is Militaristic (cheap barracks) or a Republic that can cash-rush the barracks rather than pop-rush them.

Also agreed that Statue of Zeus is powerful beyond its very good cultural efficiency.

----

Haven't started any more games yet and the next block of time is busy, so it may or may not be another five years. But I've done some analysis on the tables and have some ideas in mind for future games that could either improve my ranking or solidify remaining a quartermaster, sometimes both. Might branch out from 20K for a while though.

 

[Spoonwood]

That the AI likes to land near undefended cities is not a surprise, but that an undefended capital is a magnet, even if there are other undefended cities?

Yes.

Though if you have two opponents, they will both beeline for the capital, until one of them lands next to your capital. Then the other will land somewhere else.

 

[Spoonwood]

No cows either, probably also unheard of on the 20K charts

My hazy recollection is that archphoenix's top Tiny Chieftain save had multiple plains wheat, and I felt surprised. I'm unsure that I saw a cow, though maybe my surprise arose from expecting a grassland cow and not seeing one.

I sometimes get an error message similar to this when trying to load some saves:

even though the save also appears in the save folder.

In April of 2023, CKS had accepted this game on a Sid Huge map.

After moving some units around to make display purposes either, I took this picture (just now)

And Constantinople is his 20k city.

 

[CKS]

Yeah, I'll play HOF 20k games without a cow, as long as there is a food bonus, and on Sid I'm looking for an island of my own more than anything. For my Sid games, I played every halfway decent freshwater start until I discovered an AI on my landmass.