RB1 - Cuban Isolationists

As the elder statesman* "hanging" in this thread, I humbly request we get back to business :hammer:

P.S. No one answered my question re: does it cost more to hurry production the first turn (and then drop ~50% the second turn) like in Civ 3, or is it linear now?

*Good lord, I've been here longer than Sirian? :eek:
 
This thread has been so excellent, it made me actually bother to do a password reset! (I hadn't logged in in a long...long time, preferring just to lurk.)

(Of course, the immediate reason I posted now was to declare myself the elder statesman reader ahead of ChrTh. :crazyeye: )

I did get involved in a few CivIII SGs a few years ago, but time commitments and an irregular schedule ended that quickly. I didn't have the time or patience for some of the aspects of CivIII that were more mathematical exercise than strategy...and in an SG, you've got to be precise.

But perhaps now I just may have to get involved again for CivIV!
 
Well, it seems the combat system needs a bit of fine-tuning, after all : no more tank vs spearman sillyness... provided the tank is fully healed ! :rolleyes:

Good thing is, the fix might be very simple : just base damage calculations on the fully-healed strength of the opponents. :)
Might even play around with the notion of making a distinction between "to-hit" and "damage" modifiers (for promotions, special abilities, etc..).

P.S. No one answered my question re: does it cost more to hurry production the first turn (and then drop ~50% the second turn) like in Civ 3, or is it linear now?

Seems to be working like in Civ3, just tested it out : Colosseum required 540 gold to rush on turn 1 (119 turns to build), 354 on turn 2 with just one hammer added (118 turns to build).

But enough thread-hijacking, back to the story...;)
 
Shhhhhh!!!

Don't tell them about the lying character screen! You'll delay the patch!! :wallbash:
 
Great story! Too bad you had to break your variant rule, personally I have yet to twist an AI's arm hard enough to squeeze a city out of them. I certainly try every time though :D

I have noticed that AI's are actually weaker willed in other areas though, on my current Monarch game where I'm eeking out an existence on an 8 civ continent in the shadow of the mighty Ghandi (he has twice the score I do, and is number one as far as I can see), I've ended up having a circling war of sorts where my neighbors take turns declaring on me, then losing a city to me, then paying me about half their gold for peace.

It's actually proven very lucrative, since once the peace treaty runs out I start demanding tribute from them, and actually getting it even though we're pretty evenly matched in score (although I also ensure further wars by demeaning them like that). Strangely I've noticed I usually can get more gold from my tribute demands than actual peace treaties. It seems AIs are more willing to pay to keep the peace, than to end the war.

On another note, I don't know if this is still an issue for you Sirian:

There are three categories of problems for me.
1. Unit-command CTDs (crash to desktop).
2. Interface-related crashes. (Hard, nasty crashes, total meltdown).
3. Rarely, something that is not one of the other two.

The Unit Command crashes I figured out. They arise from a bug, which is triggered if you give a unit an order (workers to improve a plot, great people to build something in a city, missionary to convert) RIGHT after moving them. Some kind of conflict if you don't let the animation of movement play out first. (This -should- be fixed in the first patch). This crash type crashes to the Desktop without disrupting the operating system at all


I had the first one as well. Strangely I started getting it after I read about the solo game you were doing on tilted axis, and decided to try it myself. Although tilted axis is a cool map setting, after you get a few turns in this bug happens sporatically. I've switched back to standard continent maps, and never had it again. Although I still wince whenever I order a worker to do something (took me a long time to figure out what was happening, and much head-to-keyboard bashing). :twitch:
 
Just regarding the Unit CTD and Tilted axis - I've pretty much confirmed my suspicions. I created a new template that was exactly the same as the tilted axis one, 'cept it had wrapping on the y off, and on the x on. What have I found? 3 hours of gameplay has yielded no crashes on a huge map with 15 civs. We're just about to hit the industrial era. I have many manually managed workers, and previously on tilted axis it took about 1 hour TOPS to hit a unit command CTD. The Unit command CTD (it seems to me) is directly related to y axis wrapping. Why that would be, I have no idea, but that seems to be the case!
 
Amazing thread, great game, I just have to add my thanks and respect here, this bodes well for all of our future adventures in CIV IV !

It tears me apart but I must say that I had a touch of nostalgia when I saw a Cuban transport leave National waters :cry:
Am not sure our Charis would have chosen for a bend to the variant rules :(
I was already imagining the wonderful image of the first Cubans in Space (TM) or even a repeat of the original version with Castro taking over the UN (even though it would not have fitted your game so far...).
But hey those are luxury problems, will we ever be able to outdo the extravagance of this SG ?
:)
 
Subtestube said:
Just regarding the Unit CTD and Tilted axis - I've pretty much confirmed my suspicions. I created a new template that was exactly the same as the tilted axis one, 'cept it had wrapping on the y off, and on the x on. What have I found? 3 hours of gameplay has yielded no crashes on a huge map with 15 civs. We're just about to hit the industrial era. I have many manually managed workers, and previously on tilted axis it took about 1 hour TOPS to hit a unit command CTD. The Unit command CTD (it seems to me) is directly related to y axis wrapping. Why that would be, I have no idea, but that seems to be the case!

I hate to throw this thread off topic even more, but I haven't really found any problems with tilted axis maps (well, I've only played one, but, even then...) I have had one game where the game CTD just about every five turns. I started a new game, and had no problems. It almost seems to have kept the "crash flag" in the save game file, and remembered to crash every time. I've heard clearing the cache might solve some problems with it, but I can't be sure.

I suppose more experimenting needs to be done.

Great game, though.
 
I'd just like to say that I've only had the worker CTD when playing on Tilted axis maps. I've never had it on anything else, so at the moment Tilted Axis isn't so cool [for me at least]. Still, it might work for everyone else just fine!
I just wanted to chime in and say this is the case for me as well. I've tried 3 tilted axis games and each one has had the worker CTD. Those are the only occasions where the game has crashed at all for me.
 
Skyfish said:
It tears me apart but I must say that I had a touch of nostalgia when I saw a Cuban transport leave National waters :cry:
Am not sure our Charis would have chosen for a bend to the variant rules :(
I was already imagining the wonderful image of the first Cubans in Space (TM)...

The Hydra is so Magnificent :worship: that She can rewrite some of the rules. :queen:

Really, though, the game is over either way. We could have queued up all the ship parts, launched the golden age, and hit next turn a bunch of times, or we could compensate for the fact that the AIs not giving up a city under any circumstances isn't how it was intended to be, and find a fun way to enable some more combat goodness.

Our path was set when we invaded the NE Continent! That's when we made the choice to pursue a military victory rather than a builder victory. At the time, we did so on the (erroneous) premise that it could be possible to get the AI to give us a small junk city on one of the other two continents. That turns out not to be the case.

The whole team discussed the matter and agreed on rewriting the ending. Charis would respect that. :)

We can wring one more challenge out of this thing, so we dediced to go for it. :hammer:


And yes, there is a cost penalty for rushbuying an item on the first turn. This adds a bit of MicroManagement that I'd prefer not to be there, but it's there anyway, so choose accordingly.

And yes, one of the first things I'll be rushing is some more airports, especially on the NE continent.


- Sirian
 
Kylearan said:
Too bad things like the dreaded LCS (Lying Character Screen) from Diablo II make their return in other games... :(

Whoa, there. The Lying Character Screen actuallied LIED. As in, the information posted in many cases is flat out wrong.

The Civ4 display shows correct Strength value ratio. It's not lying. Players calling it a "combat odds calculator" are overstating its purpose. That's a mile and a half away from the Lying Character Screen!


You have to keep in mind that Civ4 is heavily moddable, and the displays have to work for modified game content. Since creative things might be done with modified unit traits and with promotions, rather than risk creating an LCS by mistake, Soren chose to keep it simpler and show only Strength values. Thus the display will NEVER lie, but it is up to the player to read it correctly.

The rule of thumb to keep in mind is that wounded units are weaker than unhurt units of the same Strength value, because each side has the same Str but the wounded unit has less hit points. Players aware of this can more or less "eyeball it" with figuring out the odds of success or defeat.

Word to the Wise: Rest your units! Heal them. Don't push wounded units too far!


- Sirian
 
I note by that 2640BC it would have been possible to upgrade our warriors to spearmen and (possibly) mitigate the 'lost time' spent on developing our forces whilst in pursuit of the Hydra, if the need required and the cost permitted.

Strike that - no copper or iron resources showing on the map at that time. (Oops!)
 
Sirian said:
You have to keep in mind that Civ4 is heavily moddable, and the displays have to work for modified game content. Since creative things might be done with modified unit traits and with promotions, rather than risk creating an LCS by mistake, Soren chose to keep it simpler and show only Strength values. Thus the display will NEVER lie, but it is up to the player to read it correctly.
The implication being that it shouldn't be too hard to mod the interface to make it an actual combat calculator. Now if I could only find the right functions...
 
eotinb said:
The implication being that it shouldn't be too hard to mod the interface to make it an actual combat calculator. Now if I could only find the right functions...

The problem with this is that it requires a bit too much information, I think, and as a result it shouldn't be so correct. The main reason for this is abstraction; Civ uses a generic set of equations to handle all combat, but if you know too much then you start making decisions based solely on the math, instead of on the circumstances.

Unit A is our unit. Units B and C are the enemies; both are the same type of unit, but have slightly different amounts of damage (like, one's at 50%, the other at 51%), such that it'd take unit A 2 hits to kill C but 3 hits to kill B. The odds of victory would, as a result, be drastically different. If you could actually see correct odds, you'd be able to tell where the exact threshold is.
Now, what if Unit A has three first strikes (i.e., tank vs. longbow)? If A's first strikes can kill or almost kill its enemy, then A wins, but if not, the more powerful opponent almost definitely wins. So, if B's health is slightly higher than C's, the odds could be drastically different.

The point is, in both cases a minor alteration in circumstances can severely skew the results, due to the quantized nature of the combat system. In reality, no one would be able to measure those alterations well enough, and real damage wouldn't be quantized like that. If the damage in Civ was even semi-random (say, instead of 20*(X/Y), make it (10-30)*(X/Y)) then this wouldn't be so bad.

Now, what I'd like to see would be a simple percentage, simply by taking (power * health) for each unit and dividing by the total, which'd give a better representation without depending on knowledge of the exact nature of the combat system. So, you'd see "12 vs 10.2 (67%)". Also, I'd like the odds system to better handle things like first strike.
 
So here's a silly question. Could you have stayed within the bounds of your variant rules by offering Caesar another city as a trade for one of his? It looked like he was willing to give up a city (it wasn't listed in red) but you just didn't offer him enough for it. Trading him Rome back for a toehold on another continent would be worth it, but you'd have to go back to one of your savegames to try it out. Rome could always be reconquered later.

Edit: Nevermind, it doesn't look like it would have worked. I tried it in a game I was playing with no success. Evidently only one side can offer anything when making a peace offer, so you can't make the trade then. If you declare peace and then try to trade cities, all of the cities they were willing to trade previously turn red, so there's no getting them then either.

Well, it *sounded* like a good idea at the time....
 
The Isolationists, give a city to Caesar? That would be far more of a violation of the spirit of the variant than a little midnight jaunt in a rowboat, I think.
 
@ - Arathorn.

I THOUGHT that I had read the "unit allways has 100hp" in your thread, which only added to my confusion when YOU were the one saying that wasn't the case.

It's really kind of annoying to think that I'm going to have to use a battle calc program when I decide to start waring for real, rather than the powell doctrine or purely defensive wars I've waged while trying to perfect city managment. But so it goes...

Anyway, enough threadjacking by me. It's been a fun, and sometimes informative game.

Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading about the Cuban exploits, as well as learing things from the various posters about game features.

- Maniac
 
Well, the game has gone over 100,000 views. I don't think either Sirian or I ever thought we would attract this kind of an audience, but the game has proven to be extremely popular. For our readers, I hope that we've managed to make it worth your time reading through it. :)
 
I'm suffering quite a load of crashes at this point. Like five or six per turn! Lots of units to move around, lots of cities to manage. It's going to require extra time, including the fact that I can stomach only so many crashes in a sitting before I need a break to avoid frustration. :)

I tried some diagnostic things to isolate the hardware that's causing the problem, but I've eliminated all but my motherboard and video, and I'm getting a new motherboard and CPU this week. So we'll see. If the crashes follow me to my new computer, I may have to consider replacing my video card, too!


- Sirian
 
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