Real Stacked Combat

[Nuh Uh]

Nuh Uh ..I think your playing the wrong game

There are many fine TBS hex wargames out there for the true grognard. Civilization is not one them though..Combat is a facet of the game true..but not the only one.

I've played a LOT. This game is exactly what I'm looking for, except for the fact that the combat system needs help, IMO. For my interests, its either that this game can be moded, or another game will come out that doesn't need to be moded. But, thanks for the input, winkie.

 

[khakhan007]

I like what Nuh Uh is proposing. As long as the Ai can understand the concept it should work marvelous and add some well needed (my oppinion) depth to the combat system.

 

[Nuh Uh]

Thanks Khak... Time will tell, hopefully.

 

[n003lb]

I like the look of your system, except for the Ranged (artillery) catagory, but only because I would prefer returning to the system used in Civ 3 for Artillery. I really don't like the idea of attacking with cannons.

I would like to see this system implemented with a mod that makes the ranged weapons act more like the bombard function, where they attack a tile, instead of a unit, and do collateral damage to all units in that tile.

I personally think this would make a great overall combat system then.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I'm not sure what the point is, here. I hope you are not boasting of the 'stack of doom' which just happens to be 'the doom' of any half-way realistic, thought-provoking, intelligent, and thereby interesting approach to warfare.

I'm not talking about the stack of doom. I'm talking about a different game... Call to Power 2. Which uses a system just like what you're advocating and it enables a player to roll over the entire globe with 12 units.

 

[n003lb]

I'm not talking about the stack of doom. I'm talking about a different game... Call to Power 2. Which uses a system just like what you're advocating and it enables a player to roll over the entire globe with 12 units.

I disagree with this. I rather enjoyed CTP2's combat engine. It made combined unit actions actually mean something. I had plenty of battles that I lost with overwhelming forces in CTP2, so I don't know about the 'Stack of Doom' problem.

A simple way to fix this problem is in the AI. Make the damn AI smart enough to also use stacks and yours would not crush everything.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

A simple way to fix this problem is in the AI. Make the damn AI smart enough to also use stacks and yours would not crush everything.

AI already seems smart enough to do this actually... I've definitely had times where the AI came at me with a single stack of units comprising at least one of each class making it really damn difficult to attack them since whatever unit I chose to attack with, I'd have to go up against the defender most capable of repelling an attack.

It's not the idea that I'm really objecting to as much as somewhat irritated by the attitude with which it was presented.

 

[Jeff1787]

Cheers, Nuh Uh. I like your attitude and your idea. I look forward to a more realistic combat system.

 

[Nuh Uh]

I like the look of your system, except for the Ranged (artillery) catagory, but only because I would prefer returning to the system used in Civ 3 for Artillery. I really don't like the idea of attacking with cannons.

I would like to see this system implemented with a mod that makes the ranged weapons act more like the bombard function, where they attack a tile, instead of a unit, and do collateral damage to all units in that tile.

I personally think this would make a great overall combat system then.

The truth is, I'm not (yet) even proficient enough at the current combat system, in terms of its exact mechanics, to determine specifics with regard to damage. Basically, its just food for thought. But, tentatively, the idea is that units in the Range category would be out of reach to units of a lesser category (and with regard to cannon, at least while they are garrisoned - ie. the comrade melee/ground units are there). As in the example, only my cannon would be able to damage your cannon, but my cannon would damage everything else in the stack. There would be an even spread of damage for all offensive and defensive attacks. But, while we are 'dreaming' one could get more complex with this particular classification; and for example, one could say that the Range category weapons should be able to do a focused bombardment (focused damage instead of an even distribution of damage) on any one unit within a stack, etc. Indeed, that could be an option available to many different types of units. I JUST HOPE TO GOD, someone, if not myself, will be able to DO SOMETHING along these lines to resurrect this game from the wargamer's garbage can... (it nearly went in mine along with Civ3).

 

[Nuh Uh]

Cheers, Nuh Uh. I like your attitude and your idea. I look forward to a more realistic combat system.

Back atcha, Jeff...

 

[Nuh Uh]

I personally think this would make a great overall combat system then.

Coupled with supply, we could actually play WW2. Imagine that! I'm currently engaged in one discussion about supply possibilities that you might benefit from:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137154&page=9#162

 

[maxpublic]

An even simpler way to fix the situation is to remove the artificial distinctions between units which allow for ahistorical divisions composed entirely of, say, archers, or machine gunners, or cannons. It's more than a bit ridiculous to think that you'd get a whole division or corps or army (or whatever you think the breakdown is in Civ) of just one unit type.

In my own game I did just that - removed all the ranged and siege units, leaving only a) infantry, b) cavalry, and later c) mech infantry/armor. Wouldn't you know: the AI not only does fine with this configuration, it's quite a bit better at troop use than it is in the vanilla game. By removing the rock-paper-scissors system the AI makes a leaps-and-bounds adjustment to how it uses armies. Also, promotions become far more interesting since its these things that serve to actually distinguish one infantry or cav or mech unit from another.

It would be nice to make the system more HOI-like, but I doubt the AI could handle that. I think it would end up benefiting the player but not the AI, which is true of the non-modded vanilla Civ 4 combat system as well.

Max

 

[Nuh Uh]

An even simpler way to fix the situation is to remove the artificial distinctions between units which allow for ahistorical divisions composed entirely of, say, archers, or machine gunners, or cannons. It's more than a bit ridiculous to think that you'd get a whole division or corps or army (or whatever you think the breakdown is in Civ) of just one unit type.

In my own game I did just that - removed all the ranged and siege units, leaving only a) infantry, b) cavalry, and later c) mech infantry/armor. Wouldn't you know: the AI not only does fine with this configuration, it's quite a bit better at troop use than it is in the vanilla game. By removing the rock-paper-scissors system the AI makes a leaps-and-bounds adjustment to how it uses armies. Also, promotions become far more interesting since its these things that serve to actually distinguish one infantry or cav or mech unit from another.

It would be nice to make the system more HOI-like, but I doubt the AI could handle that. I think it would end up benefiting the player but not the AI, which is true of the non-modded vanilla Civ 4 combat system as well.

Max

Please elaborate on the scripting, if you will. I would like to try it - it surely can't be inferior to the present system.

 

[maxpublic]

Please elaborate on the scripting, if you will. I would like to try it - it surely can't be inferior to the present system.

There is no scripting. I removed the units from the game, leaving only one type of infantry per era, one type of cav per era up to Renaissance (no cav after), the two tank types in the Industrial/Modern eras, and mech infantry in the Modern Era. It looks like this:

Ancient Era: Warrior to start, Axeman as era unit, Chariot
Classical Era: Spearman and Horse Archers (as a cav, not archer unit)
Medieval: Pikemen and Knights
Renaissance: Musketmen and Cavalry
Industrial: Infantry and Tanks
Modern: Marines, Modern Tanks, Mech Infantry

I also left in the air units, of course. No change in how they're used. No civilization gets any special units.

Max

 

[totg_kabu]

Something I would like to see would be having real stacked cobat but with archers having something like the bombard ability so you could have a stack of archers and spearmen, archers laying waste , spearmen defend against counterattacks etc... another addition to balance it would be to to have say a 2 move unit with flanking being able to attack archers/catapult etc and bypass other defensive units unless the stack had other units countering the flanking so on and so forth. With the general outcome meaning your stacks would have to be carfully balanced to to take into account the skills and composition of enemy armies.

 

[n003lb]

Originally Posted by maxpublic
There is no scripting. I removed the units from the game, leaving only one type of infantry per era, one type of cav per era up to Renaissance (no cav after), the two tank types in the Industrial/Modern eras, and mech infantry in the Modern Era. It looks like this:...

Does this mean you did not modfy the promotions for the remaining units to try to help make up for the loss of the specialist units?

I'll have to try that out soon, but without those unts and with nothing to fill their space, in at least some capacity, seems like it might make the game a bit dry. I'll reserve judgment until I have a try at it first.

This would seguea (sp?) very well into a mod I am planning to add leaders into Civ IV.

 

[BaneBlade]

@Nuh Uh&n003lb.
Seems where thinking the same thoughts, had nearly the same ideas. Did i get it right were also talking simultancombat here, so no attackers weakens defender before he strikes back bull****?
I would surely like to implement nearly the whole Hearts of Iron 2, just for combat, in fact i'm drooling right now...

 

[EdCase]

I've played a LOT. This game is exactly what I'm looking for, except for the fact that the combat system needs help, IMO. For my interests, its either that this game can be moded, or another game will come out that doesn't need to be moded. But, thanks for the input, winkie.

I have also played a lot of wargames. I don't include Civ 4 in that catergory.(Regard it more as a "Beer & pretzels" style of game).
But will be very interested to see what you achieve.
In fact talk to me again once the SDK arrives, as I'm sure you'll need many new units, and I am a reasonably proficient modeller/animator.

Incidentally..don't get defensive..I still believe the game as it stands is going to take more modding than its worth to make it an ACTUAL wargame.

 

[BaneBlade]

@Ed Case: Mhmm, i could need help for sure, learning XMLl+Python parallel is enough, so i'm in need of interested Modders.
In fact i'm in need of everyone interested in helping, be it in suggestions, criticism,programming, historical knowledge or whatever you will bring in.. Look in my signature!
Edit:
@Nuh Uh: Sorry for mis-using your thread as recruitmentbureau!

 

[maxpublic]

Does this mean you did not modfy the promotions for the remaining units to try to help make up for the loss of the specialist units?

I removed many of the promotions. Left in things like increased combat experience, city attack/defense, medical units, increased movement - things that made sense. The archer/siege stuff obviously isn't of use, of course, since there aren't any archer/siege units.

I thought about trying to turn promotions into brigades a la HOI and might try to do so with anti-tank/anti-air/engineer/HQ units. It seems possible. Can't include artillery as a separate brigade, unfortunately, but I just assume that if the units represent entire divisions or corps they already have organic artillery. I'm not sure how to assign promotions to units after creation outside of combat experience, however, at least not without scripting. I might just include a crosslinked 'upgrade tree' to allow units to swap out their attached brigades. Sloppy but workable.

And I don't find the combat to be any more boring than stock Civ, which is already the dullest part of the game. All it does is level the playing field by allowing the AI to more intelligently construct and deploy forces. A lot of the ideas being bandied about would benefit the player and hinder the AI, and the player already has an easy time of it in Civ. I can't imagine why anyone would want the game to be easier still.

Max