Refining my gameplay for EEQM

[Chakasulu]

Hello all. Long post here asking for help. Thank you in advance for all who read all of it and reply.

After a long break from Civ IV I recently decided to try for Emperor Elite Quattromaster. I figure this will take me at least a year when being honest about my available playing time, speed of play, and inevitable break periods when I won't play at all. I chose Emperor because it took me quite some time to get comfortable at it and there are only 18 EEQMs, so it's still a challenge albeit not as great as Deity/Immortal which I just don't know if I have the time and patience to learn. Also despite claiming to be comfortable, I don't always win on emperor, even with a great starting location provided by Map Finder. (Although I haven't yet found one worthy of those in the awesome starts thread)

I have been a lurker for years, and I have read all the Civ Illustrateds.

So in the interest of refining my gameplay for faster, more efficient conq/dom wins and achieving any kind of consistency at all for Space/Time I have upon reflection come up with some questions regarding my weaknesses;


1) Tech races: I almost exclusively play conq/dom. My priority is usually Food/slavery, Alphabet, Currency, Math, Construction, Beeline Lib.

After writing I'll pause to consider aesthetics, but on Emperor it rarely seems worth it. Usually by the time I get Alpha everybody still needs writing, which I can then use to backfill, while teching currency to stabilize the economy. I continue to roll that tech advantage to trade for other things like Monarchy, Engineering, IW, MC, and gold to keep me going if I get on a roll with Elephants or Melee backed up by catapults.

Having won the Lib race I'd say I take Nationalism about 90% of the time. It depends on if I think I'll be able to trade something else for it like Printing Press, then hard teching Gunpowder and MT. I reserve GS to speed up Education and hopefully Philo as well. I'd say two GS is my average between writing and finishing Paper.

For space races I've suffered some spectacular late game failures at Emperor level, because I honestly don't know how to play past Cuirs and Rifles. I read the guide about tech order starting with rocketry, but assuming that strategy is sound there's a sizeable gap between Liberty and Rocketry to cover. My conq/dom strategy might need a little tweaking, but my space/time game needs significantly more help than that, as I am not sure what to prioritize going forward. My guess for paths to take would be: Corporation, Democracy, Medicine, Assembly Line, then Rocketry, although I wonder if the Democracy line is something I should be trading for rather than teching it myself. I'm not very familiar with AI tech preferences past Lib. I've also read that the AI doesn't prioritize steel or radio, and that maybe I should get them to trade for some of the techs on the paths I listed.

I've already submitted and had accepted a culture victory. One is enough, so no need for help there.

2) Binary Research: I am very good at keeping up with binary research the whole game through without fail. Should I keep it that way or are there times to break the routine? When building research buildings should I start shutting it down the entire time it takes to build them to take advantage of the eventual modifier bonus? I also feel like I've heard it advised to shut down research during war. Assuming it's not your final war is that a good idea? Are there any other times when I should deviate from the binary routine?

3) Espionage: I need to spend some more time reviewing the guides out there for this, so no need to repeat anything in any of them, because I know I've only skimmed them. I know espionage can be powerful in space/time victories; if the answer to my question is in them, I will not be offended if you just say "read the guides first." That said, on Monarch and below, it was pretty easy to use it to incite revolts for my stack. On Emperor, it's becoming harder to do due to a lack of points even by the time I have cuirs. Am I doing something wrong, or is that just part of the Emperor experience?

4) Courthouses: I do not build them. Should I when going for Space/Time? If so, what signals am I looking for to help me decide?

5) New Cities: Whether through settling or conquest I set a goal of 4 cities and 6 workers by 1000BC and 7-8 cities with 9-10 workers by 1AD. When warring I keep only the best cities, unless I can vassalize the opponent, in which case I'll keep all but the absolute junkers to be returned afterwards. Thoughts? Criticisms?

6) Fog busting: I understand it and I do it however, I sometimes struggle because on standard or larger maps, the AI doesn't always quite build fast enough to eliminate the possibility of barb axes sneaking in and eating one of my warriors for lunch, creating a new opening for them to come in and wreak havoc. My first and only win on a huge map I played without barbs and I do realize that it allowed me to play significantly more aggressively towards the other AI with huge tracts of undeveloped land along my border sitting all game long and only token defense in each city. I'm thinking that my best two options to dealing with barbs other than turning them off, would be to add more AI and/or more REX. Thoughts? Criticisms?

7) Apostolic Palace: More of a note than a question. I've done little reading up on this victory condition, so no need to give me advice just yet. After putting in the time and effort to research I may have questions, but until then no need to address this.

I have a few other questions, but they are more HOF specific, so I'll post them there.

Thank you again Civfanatics for any help you are able to offer.

 

[cseanny]

I just recently started playing again after about a 1+ hiatus and while I'm not planning on any Quattromaster,etc, I'm still playing HoF challenger series and trying to improve my game. What I find myself doing is taking a look at the HoF tables and picking out #1-5 games that will be similar to my current game and settings. Just open the saves and you can see the exact research order, city timing, wars, etc etc. It's a good place to start.

 

[InovA]

I may not be Deity level (currently in my first immortal game, fingers crossed!) but with the help of others on this site I feel I can at least offer some advice on an Emperor game!

1) It looks like you're ignoring some strong, early World Wonders. That path looks good up until Mathematics. It's a nice tech, but it's not like you're planning to build the Hanging Gardens (not a bad wonder, but not worth it by popular opinion) and the only benefits are +50% chopping and leading to construction. In a game where you have ivory available it's ok to go for this path if you want to use elepults as your weapon of choice, but you forfeit other advantages with this path. i.e. Aesthetics -> Literature -> Great Library. It's a solid path that gives one of the best WWs and helps with a SE and 2 techs good for trading.

Also going for Oracle should be easy enough on Emperor with a few chops, hurrying to Priesthood would delay your Alpha and Aesthetics, but the free tech (usually CoL, with Writing, or HBR to rush) should be worth it!

Also for a coastal start with other good coastal cities, a fast GLH can more than help establish a strong midgame economy.

As for the Lib race, I usually take Nationalism too. Other strong contenders are Astronomy (on a continents map, due to it have zero techs that lead to it, therefore zero bonus towards teching it yourself. Also enables Oceanic trade for a trade economy.), Rifling or MT - for when you're certain no other A.I. has education, so you can delay starting Lib to get the most value out of it.

As for space race, I haven't gone for space race in anything higher than Monarch, but usually I'm already in a dominant position from the midgame, so any mess-ups would be meaningless. I can only think that having The Great Library, Oxford University, specific city set ups, and 2-3 academies for my highest tech cities helps tremendously while entering the later game. Not to mention courthouses/forbidden palace (mentioning later.)

2) I only break the routine a little if I'm planning to trade for a tech. The idea being that ~2 turns in a tech significantly reduces how much the A.I. will ask in return. I shut it down while building the first libraries, otherwise I would only shut it down for wars. I don't do it for all wars, only ones that I expect will take a while, your economy becomes easily stunted in these. Though maybe it should be shut down for all wars, if you're not near a key tech. The idea being all the extra whipping causes fewer pop to work extra cottages and river tiles. 10 pop lost could be ~20 coins lost, which could be 30-40 beakers after modifiers. Or I could be totally off on that.

3) Main thing: It's good after a SE boosted you to win a good war. Steal the techs you fell behind in with your extra courthouses and large empire.

4) I build courthouses as soon as I start to have more than 6 cities. The only buildings an average city needs are the Granary, Library, Courthouse, in that order. Library first if you have zero religion and need that border pop, courthouse first if it's a "meh" city you captured and you just want the ~5gp/t you would save sooner. They are needed for a larger empire and give access to the forbidden palace, reducing maintenance costs even further in nearby cities. Also the +4 espionage they give scales very well for large empires.

5) That mindset sounds about right. I would also keep crap cities if they are coastal and my empire is already about to reach max number of cities maintenance and I have the GLH, the commerce they return by trading is worth it.

6) You should have your own axes by the time barb axes are around. I don't always take the time to fog bust perfectly, but I'll have at least a few axes of my own to deal with them. If no copper, chariots are solid enough against axes with 0% defense of course.

7) I am of little help here, all I know is the # of votes is equal to the population of each city containing the religion of the Apostolic Palace and that the # is doubled if your state religion matches.

Again, I'm not as experienced as other players on the forum, but expect to be able to handle immortal thanks to them!

 

[elitetroops]

For HoF play, I'd recommend you get more comfortable with aggressive playing. Steal lots of workers and go for early rushes. You should usually keep most cities, because in a long game they will pay off. I only raze really crap cities, such as cities with no food resources as all, especially if they block me from settling a food resource.

I'd recommend you start by playing some epic/mara conquest/domination games where you aim at a BC win with nothing more advanced than HAs at most. It's easily doable on emperor level. Beeline HBR with 2-3 cities, then go all out war for the rest of the game. Don't even need HBR, it's also doable with axes on epic speed, as long as map is standard size or smaller. Picking Gilgamesh for Vultures is even better. War Chariots or Immortals will do the job even faster. If you still can afford to tech, head towards feudalism for vassals to speed up conquest. That should teach you a lot about early warfare, which is of great help when you later play space games.

If you aim for good victory dates you can turn barbs off. Most HoF players do that. Also, hand pick your opponents. If you're aiming for conquest with HAs, you wouldn't want Mansa and Pacal in the game. Not Ragnar or Shaka either.

 

[Seraiel]

1) Tech races: I almost exclusively play conq/dom. My priority is usually Food/slavery, Alphabet, Currency, Math, Construction, Beeline Lib.

After writing I'll pause to consider aesthetics, but on Emperor it rarely seems worth it. Usually by the time I get Alpha everybody still needs writing, which I can then use to backfill, while teching currency to stabilize the economy. I continue to roll that tech advantage to trade for other things like Monarchy, Engineering, IW, MC, and gold to keep me going if I get on a roll with Elephants or Melee backed up by catapults.

Having won the Lib race I'd say I take Nationalism about 90% of the time. It depends on if I think I'll be able to trade something else for it like Printing Press, then hard teching Gunpowder and MT. I reserve GS to speed up Education and hopefully Philo as well. I'd say two GS is my average between writing and finishing Paper.

First off (especially with HoF playing) I'd like you to tech Maths instead of Aesthetics and then Oracle Currency. Oracling Currency is not that difficult on Emperor, especially not if you have several tries and start with 2 Gold + good food. You can think about researching BW, I usually skip it and directly beeline Writing via Pottery (or AH if Animal resource) and in your case it might even be better to research Alpha directly yourself so before Maths so you can get all the basic techs from the AIs.
Aesthetics is a low-value-tech that only got advised so often because the AI hesitates to research it and therefore it's good tradegood when going the (obsolete) approach of teching all basic techs first and then jump onto the tech-trade-train with Aestetics. Alpha-Beeline + Oracle Currency is a way stronger approach. Trade for Aesthetics once the AI has it and then tech Literature + Music to get the GA and the NE, but in a Spacerace the ideal time for that is usually after having Education or at least Paper. TGL is a nice wonder but I don't value it too highly, it can be worth it on certain settings but in a Spacerace the GL and the Parthenon obsolete so fast that they're maybe 1 additional GP each, so worth considering but definitely no musthave. What you should focus on is pushing forward in tech so stay on the beeline and Lib either Steel (war-path) or Biology (Sushi-path) or Communism (State-Property-route) .
In some games it still can be good to Lib -> Nationalism but Lib -> Rifling or Lib -> Steel are better choices in Spaceraces because Rifles are ultimately cheap when drafted and Cannons just change the game completely because it's possible to conquer almost any city with Cannons + Muskets (or Maces or Elephants or whatever) with 0-1 losses if being fast.

For space races I've suffered some spectacular late game failures at Emperor level, because I honestly don't know how to play past Cuirs and Rifles. I read the guide about tech order starting with rocketry, but assuming that strategy is sound there's a sizeable gap between Liberty and Rocketry to cover. My conq/dom strategy might need a little tweaking, but my space/time game needs significantly more help than that, as I am not sure what to prioritize going forward. My guess for paths to take would be: Corporation, Democracy, Medicine, Assembly Line, then Rocketry, although I wonder if the Democracy line is something I should be trading for rather than teching it myself. I'm not very familiar with AI tech preferences past Lib. I've also read that the AI doesn't prioritize steel or radio, and that maybe I should get them to trade for some of the techs on the paths I listed.

After Communism you should tech Biology Physics is dependant on if you need Airships, they're better than many think. Electricity is a high priority tech afterwards and before that you should definitely as early as possible get Assembly Line (maybe not before Corporations but directly after and if going for State Property than directly after Lib -> Communism with Steel either before or after Communism (if needed) ) .

The optimal tech paths you can also find in the logs of the best Spaceraces, generally I'd advise to look at WastinTime's 700AD AD Standard / Marathon Spacerace with Incans, my 695AD Large / Marathon Spacerace with Darius or my 1500AD Small / Normal Spacerace with Peter, but if you go the State Property route Pollina's BOTM-100 would probably be a good source .

2) Binary Research: I am very good at keeping up with binary research the whole game through without fail. Should I keep it that way or are there times to break the routine? When building research buildings should I start shutting it down the entire time it takes to build them to take advantage of the eventual modifier bonus? I also feel like I've heard it advised to shut down research during war. Assuming it's not your final war is that a good idea? Are there any other times when I should deviate from the binary routine?

Binary research all the time. Saving money and being able to pick the tech later are great advantages, as then you can see what your opponents teched so choose less bad stuff.

3) Espionage: I need to spend some more time reviewing the guides out there for this, so no need to repeat anything in any of them, because I know I've only skimmed them. I know espionage can be powerful in space/time victories; if the answer to my question is in them, I will not be offended if you just say "read the guides first." That said, on Monarch and below, it was pretty easy to use it to incite revolts for my stack. On Emperor, it's becoming harder to do due to a lack of points even by the time I have cuirs. Am I doing something wrong, or is that just part of the Emperor experience?

Read CIV Illustrated: Hybrid Economy again, it had an update with Espionage, stealing is what's most important in Spaceraces.
Don't overuse , only use it when absolutely necessary and try to stay on the beeline and tech yourself in Spaceraces. Espionage-Economy is something for games where you cannot compare GNP-wise, this is a very uncommon scenario that can happen on Boreal i. e. but apart from that playing an Espionage-assisted cultural victory or playing an AW game would be the only scenarios where I'd think that an EE would be best choice.

4) Courthouses: I do not build them. Should I when going for Space/Time? If so, what signals am I looking for to help me decide?

Not building Courthouses is usually good. On Huge maps you want a few for the FP and with extremely many cities and an enormously large stretched empire (think 50+ cities) they can be good aswell in some cities, but generally Courthouses are too expensive to be worth they cost. They're definitely needed when going for Corporations though, then either directly before reaching the Corporation or earlier with being ORG because ORG Courthouses are mostly good, the non-ORG ones are too expensive unless Corporations though (see exceptions above) .

5) New Cities: Whether through settling or conquest I set a goal of 4 cities and 6 workers by 1000BC and 7-8 cities with 9-10 workers by 1AD. When warring I keep only the best cities, unless I can vassalize the opponent, in which case I'll keep all but the absolute junkers to be returned afterwards. Thoughts? Criticisms?

Don't raze cities, even the worst city can usually sustain itself. If a city really is too bad, gift it to your opponent for diplo-bonuses. In some scenarios you can gift it to a far away AI, then that AI builds roads towards that city so i. e. gifting away a city on the one side of ones empire towards the AI on the other side can be good .

Hth.

 

[Chakasulu]

@Inova

The main reason I go maths is for construction. Of course Ivory means whoop ass time, but I go for it even without ivory because catapults + axes/swords is strong, but I get the feeling from you and Elitetroops that maybe I don't need the catapults so early.

As for great library, I kind of forget it exists because I don't seem to need it for conquest, but I may for games that are going to last much longer than the 1500s. Seraiel also makes a good argument against the great library, but I agree it has been wrong of me to completely ignore it.

I didn't mention GLH but you are right and I do have that in mind when I start a new game. If I think I can get it and expect to have more than a couple coastal cities, I absolutely make it a priority. I do know what a beast that wonder can be!

I think some of my weaknesses stem from a combination of rushing and cowardice. It is not uncommon for me to complete liberty and not only be able to trade away education, but even paper to some Civs. In that situation, you are right; I need to start considering delaying lib for something like MT, Rifles, Astro, etc. This is also the main reason I ignore oracle: cowardice. The consensus thus far seems to be I need to make oracle a part of my game, so I definitely will.

Your advice for #2 is kinda what I was thinking already. For #6 sounds like I need to stop playing so fast and loose with the quality of defense I leave behind. It's not a consistent problem, but on occasion they do break through and tear up a bunch of my improvements leading me to ragequit.

@elitetroops

I am handpicking opponents. Between civ illustrated and studying HOF games as Cseanny recommended, I've been picking manageable AIs. It seems the most popular picks are: Fred, Ghandi, Elizabeth, Mansa, Degaulle, Asoka, Egyptians, Americans and a little bit of Darius and Joao. Degaulle is fun; he's the Charlie Brown of Civ IV it seems. E'ry buddy always pickin' on 'im.

I do look for opportunities to worker steal. I do look to early rush which usually leads me to prioritize bronzeworking frequently so that I can take out a civilization with an Axe rush and then Construction for catapults, although it sounds like the latter has not been optimal. As for conquering cities would a good guideline be food resource=keep it/no food resource=raze it?

Epic is my preferred speed. Mara is a bit too slow for my enjoyment, but having played it I fully understand why it is popular in the HOF. That said, I didn't hate it either, so I think I'll come back to it now and again just to mix things up.

Early win dates is my #1 priority. The faster I can win the more I feel I've achieved. Score is nice, but due to limited play time I'm all about that finish date. So with that, I'm absolutely going to take your advice and try to take over the world with just Axes or HAs rather than just my usual 1-3 civs on a standard map. Likewise in regards to your Gigi suggestion: EQM requires that I play him at some point anyway.

@Seraiel

#1 I'm totally following what your're saying here. I'm going to do it. In regards to pottery or AH I always tech just one based on the land and then trade for the other as soon as I get alpha.

Thank you for your game references for tech path as well. I will review both those games.

You usually skip BW; does that mean you rarely go on the offense with Axes? Or is their window of usefulness longer than I think? I assumed that if I could trade for it, then it's too late, but maybe I've just been too wimpy.

#3 that's kind of what I was thinking; that it's more of an emergency route. I do plan on re-reading and taking notes on how to best do that.

#4 I agree. I've read your arguments many times and of all the advice you give on this site, I find it interesting that your views on courthouses seems to be the thing people most often want to debate you on. That said, I'm sold. And I don't really enjoy maps larger than standard so it sounds like for me "No courthouses" could be a hard and fast rule to stick by.

#5 You and the others have convinced me of the error of my ways. I'll stop razing so much, but they won't be spared the whip!

Thank you so much everybody for your input! I shall apply and return!

 

[Chakasulu]

Oh and I forgot about another topic:

8) Golden Age Chains: How and when best to set these up? Lets assume space victory, so 1 GS for academy, 1-2 more for bulb help with Edu and maybe Philo, and then what? Save the rest for Golden Ages as soon as I build Taj Mahal?

 

[Seraiel]

#1 I'm totally following what your're saying here. I'm going to do it. In regards to pottery or AH I always tech just one based on the land and then trade for the other as soon as I get alpha.

In standard games it may be viable to tech both but in a HoF game you start with at least 2 Golds over the first 3 cities and then no Cottages are really needed before the time at which one could have Alpha (between 2200BC and 2000BC usually) . Axe-rushes make less sence on Deity but I could imagine them being a good choice on Emperor, so Idk. . On Deity Elepult is the first safe rush and I only rush with BW when I find BW in a hut. BW earlier than 2200BC has only little uses, with Workerstealing it's great but whipping i. e. is not really efficient without a Granary, so if you'd need to research TW + Pottery + BW and get up a Granary only to start whipping then you're faster if you simply build 2 Settlers at size 3 or 4 and beeline Alpha, trade for BW, then chop or chop-whip the Granary and off to Maths.
If playing for Domination though going HBR + BW can be a good choice. On Emperor, HA-rush is a very strong strategy because of the 2 moves of those units. On Deity HA-rush is a gamble and Elepult is simply safer.

Thank you for your game references for tech path as well. I will review both those games.

You usually skip BW; does that mean you rarely go on the offense with Axes? Or is their window of usefulness longer than I think? I assumed that if I could trade for it, then it's too late, but maybe I've just been too wimpy.

See above.

Oh and I forgot about another topic:

8) Golden Age Chains: How and when best to set these up? Lets assume space victory, so 1 GS for academy, 1-2 more for bulb help with Edu and maybe Philo, and then what? Save the rest for Golden Ages as soon as I build Taj Mahal?

Best time to start is usually when Pacifism is available to then run several cities as GP-Farms (think of running up to 6 cities as GP-Farms during the GA that is hopefully MoM fueled and generate 5-6 GPs during 1 GA by starving them, then take 2 for the next GA and use the rest for bulbing, 3-GP-GA, shrine, whatever and also consider the Taj Mahal in between as that allows more bulbing) .

Academy is nice in a Space-victory but bulbing Education and fast-building Oxford also has it's charm. On Emperor I'd say Oracle Currency, tech CoL, bulb Philo, start GA-chain, found an Academy, save then bulb Education once aswell (unless you have too much already then bulb other things, PP, Liberalism (skip Machinery) , Chemistry and SM, Physics, Electricity are all GS-bulbs) .