Regarding this "1 UPT" nonsense...

[gfurst]

I had to move a worker down to the southern city on the main continent and yes it really was tough just to get it there. I had open borders of course, but every turn the the order needed to be given again and a lot of the time the unit had to travel sideways in order to make progress.

I can't believe it!
Yes i experienced constant asking for directions( bad firaxis).
Yes i experienced the AI building something like a Swarm of Doom, but it was useless because it crippled it self on maintenance, he didn't attack me( although it looked like he wanted), 50 turns later the SoD of infantry( only infantry, can you believe it?) got crushed by my modern armor, bombers, artillery and paratroopers.

Yes i was crippled too, -100 gold per turn. But there is no other way to get a taste of each unit is there? And it made me won the game, by domination, about 5 turns after my diplomacy victory (WTF).

Back to Civ4:
1 UPT, its annoying, but the new combat tactics is very interesting. Like i said before, a limit on unit per tyle, that is VARIABLE, depending on unit type, terrain, etc
PLUS
more dynamic bonuses for using units together and surrounding the enemy.
EQUALS
More interesting Civ4 combat, the AI of course wouldn't know how to use it, but is +- forced due to the unit limit.
I also liked the units not dying right away in combat, if we could implement some kind of ticker in combat for Civ4, for example 5 ticks, the units do their damage to each other and then stops.

 

[General Tso]

My mod is still in alpha version but it has all of those features. The number of units per tile is limited by terrain type. That number is then adjusted by the presence of certain improvements, features, a city, and a road. These values are all set in XML so they are easy to change. I've also made combat less lethal (this can also be adjusted in XML). I have also worked on improving combined arms combat to make it difficult for one unit to defeat any other units. For example tanks are very powerful, but they can only see the three tiles directly in front on the unit, so you have to have other units around them or they can be easy prey. Tanks are also lousy at taking cities. Towed artillery is another example. It is very powerful when set up and the enemy is in range (especially an experienced unit with multiple shots per turn), but it is easy pickings when being towed by a truck (which is the only way that it can move).

 

[Acronym2]

You know, I had always considered 1 UPT for Civ5 might be an improvement but I see now how silly it is for the scale of the game. On the other hand, individual unit combat for huge stacks of doom is equally tedious.

Perhaps a stacking limitation, as suggested by several others, for CivIV would be the real improvement. Something like six or twelve units, perhaps. In this way, you'll have to balance your forces and create something more like a real army with diversity and experience making a real difference in the outcome of a stack vs stack battle. Rather than just one SOD, one would have to maneuver and confront several smaller stacks or "armies" during war with another civilization. Could be interesting for naval battles as well.

In addition, Baldyr's suggestion of simultaneous stack combat resolution could fit nicely and would make the engagements of these stack limited battlegroups less bogged down with individual combat. (I have to agree that waiting for each unit to fight in a stack is a bit of a bore and isn't all that important for a game on this scale.)

I think these are some ideas worth trying to mod into CivIV. At least, I have always wanted to improve combat in the game. Does anyone know if a stacking limit would have to be written in SDK, Python, or simply XML? Getting a limit to the stack would be the first order, followed by simultaneous combat and than, possibly the AI would need to be tweaked in order to use the new system.

 

[gfurst]

There is already a UPT mod component, that allows you to set a limit per tile and depending on features on tile as well as improvements, very well planned. However the AI wasn't modified to use properly the new feature, but is forced to use it anyway, making the mod usable on some instances and others not.

My only alteration to this modcomp would be to allow a unit per type per tile feature, to make more sense on the strategic point of view, and it would still allow the AI use the feature nicely without any alteration to it.

Additionally it would be good to have more variants on combat: only swordsman and catapults on the offensive to capture cities simply doesn't make sense to me, only archers on defense also makes no sense. Make it more flavored.

 

[Acronym2]

I think things like that, if well thought out and properly implemented, could go a long way to improving combat.

Incidentally, I think I remember the 1 upt mode for CivIV and that there was some major drawbacks with it. Although I also recall a nice little feature of Call to Power and Alpha Centauri that may work here. Each unit in those games also costed a mineral resource to maintain. So, the more units one built, the more production and research would slow to reflect the negative drag a conflict or too much military investment could exert on other areas of developement.

Anytime the AI Civ produced stacks of doom it would suffer a consequence/trade-off (As well as a limit due to mineral resources). In addition, such a system does not seem to present the same complications for the AI as some of the others. Actually, this is something I would like to try and I believe it is no more complicated than changing a line of XML to add a mineral cost for maintenance along with gold. (At least I think so......it has been awhile since I dug into the CivIV XML.)

The only drawback is that the AI may unit-produce itself into a state of standstill. I guess it will have to be tested, but what seems more plausible: A civ creating huge stacks of doom or a depression caused by the resource demands of a war?

 

[Thomas SG]

1UPT makes no sense. And when I see the pics in one of the first posts. OMG!!!

This is no improvement. No. But I agree that SoDs are not really fun too. A stack of 10 or 20 units is fun but a stack 100 or more is no fun to me. But what is the main problem here? I say it's the damn 1 per unit and turn upkeep. With increased costs for later unit types there wouldn't be so much more units in the later game. No need to talk about the influence on turn times.

And so here is my solution. I've implemented a new optional mod into CCV 4.29C that I call "Advanced Support". What does it do? AS increases the upkeep for more modern unit types. While a modern carrier costs 1 in BTS it can cost you between 6 and 10 with AS in CCV. Why 6-10? Because there is also a connection to your population points in AS. For example the super carrier requires a support of 4 population points. But if you got not enough pop points to support your army you will have to pay +1 for each missing pop point. No need to explain that for example a unit of infantry needs more pop points than a jet fighter.

And as a result a typical empire in CCV can support 50-150 units over all and in all eras. No more 300++ units as before!

€: And of course CCV has also got some advanced ranged combat features like FSA (first strike attack).

 

[AbsintheRed]

My favourite solution is the way Walter Hawkwood and the others impemented it in Total Realism
There are crowded "promotions" for big stacks
Not sure about the numbers right now, but something about -15% strength for every unit if the stack is bigger than 8, and -30% strength if it's bigger than 12. The rest is just balancing.
I always thought this is really elegant and works perfectly...

 

[Thomas SG]

I always thought this is really elegant and works perfectly...

What about the AI? Does the AI know that it is better to keep the supplies coming later? And the stacks stay as big as they are... And the turn times may still take for ever... I hate it to wait for a single turn 10 minutes on a XXL map.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

1UPT makes no sense. And when I see the pics in one of the first posts. OMG!!!

This is no improvement. No. But I agree that SoDs are not really fun too. A stack of 10 or 20 units is fun but a stack 100 or more is no fun to me. But what is the main problem here? I say it's the damn 1 per unit and turn upkeep. With increased costs for later unit types there wouldn't be so much more units in the later game. No need to talk about the influence on turn times.

And so here is my solution. I've implemented a new optional mod into CCV 4.29C that I call "Advanced Support". What does it do? AS increases the upkeep for more modern unit types. While a modern carrier costs 1 in BTS it can cost you between 6 and 10 with AS in CCV. Why 6-10? Because there is also a connection to your population points in AS. For example the super carrier requires a support of 4 population points. But if you got not enough pop points to support your army you will have to pay +1 for each missing pop point. No need to explain that for example a unit of infantry needs more pop points than a jet fighter.

And as a result a typical empire in CCV can support 50-150 units over all and in all eras. No more 300++ units as before!

€: And of course CCV has also got some advanced ranged combat features like FSA (first strike attack).

I am fairly sure that this is the way RoM/AND has gone, increasing the cost of maintaining the units. It costs even more to maintain them when they leave your cultural boarders. I have not seen any change to the way the AI builds units. They keep on building them until their economy crashes and they stagnate.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Personally, I dislike any limits and I love stacks of doom.

There is nothing as fun as watching a pair of 100 units each stacks fight it out.


If you want to change something, than make it so that I can watch AI vs AI battles as well.

 

[Thomas SG]

Personally, I dislike any limits and I love stacks of doom.

At first - it's optional. You can even disable it while the game is running.

At second - there is no limit except your economy.