ferretbacon
Obsessor
I've been playing Gods & Kings since it was released, but I still haven't deciphered how religious pressure works... seems arbitrary to me. Is it based off of population or distance or what?
Religious Pressure - How Does it Work?
- Thread starter ferretbacon
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Tachii
Procrastinator
Some quick notes:
-Has nothing to do with population (as long as the city have it as the dominant religion, it will contribute to pressure other cities, it doesn't pressure itself). Also, for whatever reason, if the city has it as the dominant religion, even if it increases in population it will always have that religion unless there's other pressures (stronger assumeably) near the city.
-Has to do with distance though. 10 tiles I think? More with Iterinent preachers.
-Base pressure value is 6, with religious texts it's 8 and more with printing press tech.
-Capital has a base pressure of 30 to itself.
Only thing I don't get is what the 1000 mean for a Missionary/Prophet. It's not the same as the pressure exerted by other cities.
-Has nothing to do with population (as long as the city have it as the dominant religion, it will contribute to pressure other cities, it doesn't pressure itself). Also, for whatever reason, if the city has it as the dominant religion, even if it increases in population it will always have that religion unless there's other pressures (stronger assumeably) near the city.
-Has to do with distance though. 10 tiles I think? More with Iterinent preachers.
-Base pressure value is 6, with religious texts it's 8 and more with printing press tech.
-Capital has a base pressure of 30 to itself.
Only thing I don't get is what the 1000 mean for a Missionary/Prophet. It's not the same as the pressure exerted by other cities.
Sir Furlong
Chieftain
@Tachii Does a Capitol give bonuses for just being a capitol or is it from it being the holy city?
Tachii
Procrastinator
Sorry, yeah, it has to be the holy city. I just assumed most people would choose the capitol for the Holy City.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
I'm still not clear; I've had cases where my holy city was next to one of my other cities and a foreign religion that was further away was applying more pressure than my own religion. How is that possible? Note that this observation occured before the Grand Temple national wonder was added.
Tachii
Procrastinator
1. Enhancer belief Itinerant Preachers spread religion 30% further than normal.
2. More cities with dominant religion will sum to more pressures. Example: 3 of Ethiopia AI cities have Christinaity while only your capitol have Buddhism. You will exert 6 pressure to your city, while Ethiopia spreads 18 pressure to your city if they're within distance.
3. As long as they're within a certain distance (10 tiles I think), it doesn't matter if they're 8 tiles away while your capitol is just 4 tiles away from your city.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
Ah, so the reason why one religion overpowers another is because it has spread more or has been actively spread and those extra cities multiply that religion's ability to apply pressure.
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
Sherlock
Just one more turn...
So the 'free to spam cities' AI has a real benefit here.
Fairly typical, and easy to understand. Religious pressure is a two-way phenomonon. Each city, regardless of population and presence of religious buildings (other than the Grand Temple--more on that in a bit), "exports" or "projects" or "broadcasts" (choose an appropriate verb) the same amount of pressure (6 pressure standard, or 8 pressure with Religious Texts and 10 pressure with Religious Texts after Printing Press) for a distance of 10 tiles (13 tiles with Itinerant Preachers). [Note: I'm going to ignore Itinerant Preachers and Religious Texts for the remainder of this post -- the effect is the same, but the arithmetic is different and that will just complicate my reply.]
So, every city "broadcasts " 6 pressure to every city within 10 tiles, which means every city within 10 tiles is "receiving" or "experiencing" (again, pick your favorite verb) 6 pressure from that city. Since a given city may have many cities of different religions withion 10 tiles, that city will be "experiencing" varying amounts of pressure from those religions (all multiples of 6 in this example).
In your case, you had a religion in your holy city that was exerting 6 pressure on your neighboring city, but that neighboring city was in range of a number of other religion cities that were exerting some multiple of 6 pressure (if 4 cities, 24 pressure, if 6 cities, 36 pressure, etc.)
That gets us to your holy city and the Grand Temple. Garden-variety cities do not exert pressure on themselves, but the holy city is an exception. To help it maintain its holy city status, it exerts 30 "internal" pressure on top of whatever external pressure it is experiencing. That pressure is felt only by the holy city, not its neighbors. So, back to the case you describe -- you could mouse over your capital/holy city and observe 30 pressure, but when you mouse over the neighbor, only 6 pressure. Working as expected.
The Fall patch introduced a new religious building, the Grand Temple, which does one thing: "Doubles religious pressure emanating from this City." It can only be built in your holy city, and it effectively doubles the pressure your holy city is exporting from 6 to 12 (or, with Religious Texts, from a maximum of 10 to a maximum of 20).
So, every city "broadcasts " 6 pressure to every city within 10 tiles, which means every city within 10 tiles is "receiving" or "experiencing" (again, pick your favorite verb) 6 pressure from that city. Since a given city may have many cities of different religions withion 10 tiles, that city will be "experiencing" varying amounts of pressure from those religions (all multiples of 6 in this example).
In your case, you had a religion in your holy city that was exerting 6 pressure on your neighboring city, but that neighboring city was in range of a number of other religion cities that were exerting some multiple of 6 pressure (if 4 cities, 24 pressure, if 6 cities, 36 pressure, etc.)
That gets us to your holy city and the Grand Temple. Garden-variety cities do not exert pressure on themselves, but the holy city is an exception. To help it maintain its holy city status, it exerts 30 "internal" pressure on top of whatever external pressure it is experiencing. That pressure is felt only by the holy city, not its neighbors. So, back to the case you describe -- you could mouse over your capital/holy city and observe 30 pressure, but when you mouse over the neighbor, only 6 pressure. Working as expected.
The Fall patch introduced a new religious building, the Grand Temple, which does one thing: "Doubles religious pressure emanating from this City." It can only be built in your holy city, and it effectively doubles the pressure your holy city is exporting from 6 to 12 (or, with Religious Texts, from a maximum of 10 to a maximum of 20).
ferretbacon
Obsessor
@Browd
Very clear answer, thank you, that makes perfect sense now.
Very clear answer, thank you, that makes perfect sense now.
TheHarshax
Warlord
What isn't covered by Browd's excellent answer, is the context X pressure, in terms of turns per conversion. In other words, if a city is receiving 6 pressure, a new believer will spawn in how many turns?
Lord Yanaek
Emperor
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I think nobody knows this for sure. Nor does anybody know what the 1000 power of missionaries and Great Prophets mean.
Probably those are related. I guess if a missionary can convert let's say 4 people with it's 1000 "power" (that's a reasonable number but nothing else, i have no math on this), it would mean that 250 points of religion are needed for 1 citizen conversion, thus a city would have to accumulate 250 points for 1 citizen to convert. If it's receiving 24 pressure from 4 cities, 1 citizen would convert after 11 turns.
To make things more complicated, i have observed that missionaries will convert a number of citizen that varies from city to city, even if a city have no religion (total population seems to play a role here) and Great Prophets will convert more people with the same 1000 power
Existing religion will also make conversion harder.
Probably those are related. I guess if a missionary can convert let's say 4 people with it's 1000 "power" (that's a reasonable number but nothing else, i have no math on this), it would mean that 250 points of religion are needed for 1 citizen conversion, thus a city would have to accumulate 250 points for 1 citizen to convert. If it's receiving 24 pressure from 4 cities, 1 citizen would convert after 11 turns.
To make things more complicated, i have observed that missionaries will convert a number of citizen that varies from city to city, even if a city have no religion (total population seems to play a role here) and Great Prophets will convert more people with the same 1000 power
Existing religion will also make conversion harder.
I think this is the most mysterious aspect of religion. There must be an RNG element to this, because it seems completely unpredictable.
Stolen Rutters
Deity
To make things more complicated, i have observed that missionaries will convert a number of citizen that varies from city to city, even if a city have no religion (total population seems to play a role here) and Great Prophets will convert more people with the same 1000 power
Existing religion will also make conversion harder.
Ok, so I guess this would imply pressure is dependent on total pop somehow, and its effect is reduced by the number of already converted pops.
That makes sense, considering the Great Prophets remove other religions from the city. If a missionary is only working with the unconverted fraction of a city, but Great Prophets remove the competition and THEN convert a fraction of the whole city, that could explain why missionaries are much weaker even though it shows the same 1000 power strength in the animation.
One thing I've noticed is that when I city grows it maintains about the same ratio of followers as it had before it grew. That effect can be really significant if you hold a city at size 1 until it gets a follower. As it grows it will stay approximately 100% followers until it starts to get pressure from other religions.
I think an RNG element is unlikely since it will tell you in advance exactly what the effect of using a missionary is. That wouldn't make a lot of sense if there was an RNG element to it.
It would sure make a lot of sense for the pressure and missionary strength numbers to be the same thing.
I think an RNG element is unlikely since it will tell you in advance exactly what the effect of using a missionary is. That wouldn't make a lot of sense if there was an RNG element to it.
It would sure make a lot of sense for the pressure and missionary strength numbers to be the same thing.
Lord Yanaek
Emperor
- Joined
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Some people are dissecting the C++ code to figure out how religion works :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12028437#post12028437
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12028437#post12028437
Stolen Rutters
Deity
ooh, cool, so for missionary and prophet spread of a non-religious city:
1. You have 100 no-religion pressure per population in a non-religous city plus 100 pressure for the majority "no-religion", compared to 1000 pressure for the missionary and prophet, the ratio defining how many of the city is converted. (edit - if I am reading the other thread right, since they are saying you need a second missionary, or more, to create a majority religion if the city pop is 10 or over, and the prophet removes all religious pressure except your own and the no-religion pressure the city has.)
Yay!
2. Every time a pop is added to a city with a majority religion, the majority religion gets a 100 pressure bonus applied against the city for the added pop.
Yay! (edit 3... Ooh, in other words, the majority religion will score another follower every time the city grows? Nice.)
3. The effect of the +6 pressure per turn isn't defined in that thread, so the slow conversion process still isn't teased out of the process yet.
Boo
(edit - so +6 pressure per turn should convert a pop in a non-religous city at +100?, i.e. 17 turns? I wonder how that changes once the first pop is under your belt...)
(edit 2)
4. And, cities with existing religion are fighting back at the rate of 100 pressure per pop converted? What does that mean? If neighboring pressure is cumulative that should
eventually swamp a constant native 100 pressure per pop as neighbor pressure adds up, though that may take much of the game to become dominant... might make the inquisitor more powerful depending on what it does to the equation... if it works like the prophet and removes all pressure except your own and the no-religion pressure, that would be cool.
Sorry if Im being stupid here...
In my current game I destroyed the Spanish and captured their capital - which was also a Holy city for their religion. As I have my own religion I converted this capital (and the other captured cities) to my religion.
This is obviously the right thing to do right?
I think Civ 4 is confusing me by thinking I can have 2 or 3 religions etc but in G&K, its just the one religion (if you found it of course) that you want to spread to get maximum benefit?
Again, sorry for being dumb!
In my current game I destroyed the Spanish and captured their capital - which was also a Holy city for their religion. As I have my own religion I converted this capital (and the other captured cities) to my religion.
This is obviously the right thing to do right?
I think Civ 4 is confusing me by thinking I can have 2 or 3 religions etc but in G&K, its just the one religion (if you found it of course) that you want to spread to get maximum benefit?
Again, sorry for being dumb!
sometimes another civ's religions has good benefits. check them before cleansing it. if your civ has a good follower benefit it's good to spread though. tithe is one of the popular always-useful benefits to spread.
i forget too, but follower and enhancer benefits affect civs differently. i think follower beliefs affect the cities (and de facto their Civ owners) and enhancers affect the religions owners, or something like that. so when you check what another religion's beliefs are you have to consider how it will affect theirs and your cities if you want to keep it.
i forget too, but follower and enhancer benefits affect civs differently. i think follower beliefs affect the cities (and de facto their Civ owners) and enhancers affect the religions owners, or something like that. so when you check what another religion's beliefs are you have to consider how it will affect theirs and your cities if you want to keep it.
bcaiko
Emperor
Hunh. Didn't know population had nothing to do with how a Religion spreads. Seems kind of stupid to me. You'd think more people believing a Relgion would cause other people to conform faster.
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