[Reopened Thread] You Don't Like Civ5? How to Make a Difference.

[Misotu]

The advice and links you provide are good, valuable information...but not in the case of someone's opinion of a product. That protection is there for people who have really been ripped off, like if 2K shipped a bunch of empty boxes with no CD in them. A videogame is a creative product, and as such there will always be people who don't like it. But a negative opinion of a creative product is not a reason to call the FTC or BBB. There is no wrong doing, you just don't like the game.

I have no idea about the BBB, since I am not based in the US. The UK groups I mentioned are both government bodies and perfectly reputable.

Your comment regarding someone's "opinion of the product" is a straw man - no-one on this board, I think, would expect to get their money back because they don't like the game However, lack of advertised functionality, continual crashing and serious performance issues (my large map game took nearly 8 minutes to load this evening! And my system exceeds dramatically the minimum requirements to run the game) are legitimate cause for complaint to the vendor and the developer. I am willing to see if further patches fix the performance/crashing issues, but if not then I will be contacting both Steam and Firaxis/2k to complain and ask for a refund because, in all honesty, the game is not playable for me at the moment and I think it unreasonable to market a game which is, clearly, not at present of marketable quality. I have not had a game which crashed so badly for many years ... not since the first release of Alpha Centauri in fact

 

[ash88]

just google "BBB scam" and enjoy reading about this great "consumer protection" agency...It's a good read.

And the BBB is there for people who have truly been ripped off, not just for people who don't like a product. If I dislike a book I buy at Barnes & Noble should I call the BBB on the publisher, or berate the manager at the store...no, I shouldn't.

The advice and links you provide are good, valuable information...but not in the case of someone's opinion of a product. That protection is there for people who have really been ripped off, like if 2K shipped a bunch of empty boxes with no CD in them. A videogame is a creative product, and as such there will always be people who don't like it. But a negative opinion of a creative product is not a reason to call the FTC or BBB. There is no wrong doing, you just don't like the game.

And here's just one story about the BBB:

"My wife and I opened a bakery in Fenton, MO in June of 2010. About 4 months into the business, we received a phone call from a telemarketer from the BBB. They encouraged us to join their organization stating that we ‘qualified’ for an A rating because of our good business history. I’m sure we are an ‘A’ business, but how can our meager 4-month history ‘qualify’ us for an A rating already? We were told that for “only” $1,400 we could have an A rating and be an accredited business member of the BBB.
Are you serious? We’re a new business, so we don’t have $1,400 to buy an A rating, but even if we did, I would prefer to earn it through customer satisfaction and loyalty!"

There are 2 things you aren't taking into account here:

1) People (like fradulent telemarketers) use the name of the name of the BBB to further their scamming agendas. I don't think Blizzard is a scam just because I get an email telling me I need to pay more for my Wow account, afterall. Here is an example, and it is the second link when you type in BBB scam: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35335216/ns/business-consumer_news/

2) Anyone can post anything on the internet. I can put up a page at www.Civ5HasARootKitVirus.com and someone will source me for proof. The "proof" is found when you go to a government run organization, like the FTC, and find out if there have been complaints about the BBB. Afterall, if the BBB, an organization that has been around for twice as long as most of us have been alive, is just a giant scheme then that is right up the FTCs ally.

Lastly, the idea you have that people need something like an empty box, or some kind of blatantly illegal claim against a company to contact the BBB is simply not true. I would defend this point, but going tot heir website and seeing what their requirements are is more effective (and takes less time for me to type).

If you'd like we can ask the FTC if the BBB is a reputable company. Or do you question the FTC as well? They are easily contactable. Anyone can get them to either respond by email, or inform them that they are taping the conversation when they give them a call... but hey - maybe they are some kind of scam as well?

Cheers

 

[cman2010]

Um, you shouldn't really encourage people to call companies and be d**k-heads just because you don't like their videogame. And those organizations you list below (BBB and FTC) aren't going to do anything just because you don't like a videogame. You better be ready to prove that the company broke the law, like stole from you or were fraudulent (neither of which apply to Civ V). The OP suggestions are really preposterous. I'm not surprised this was locked the first time. Also, the BBB is a joke, they aren't a government run organization, they are a private company and you can pay them for a good rating.

this is a landmark thread as it is the first time I agree with charon2112. good points on this post and the subsquent post as well the bbb and fcc cant do much about this.

to the op you spent all that time just to get 20.00 back your time must not be that valuable then.

 

[Senethro]

This thread is well intentioned and all, but could an internet lawyer tell us the point at which phoning up half the staff of a company daily becomes harassment? Is there a clear line?

 

[cman2010]

This thread is well intentioned and all, but could an internet lawyer tell us the point at which phoning up half the staff of a company daily becomes harassment? Is there a clear line?

Im not an internet lawyer but I can tell you that they would have to contact you to stop and would have to prove it was harassment, if he was polite I dont think they could do much about it unless it was excessive ex 20 times in a day.

 

[Sonereal]

Im not an internet lawyer but I can tell you that they would have to contact you to stop and would have to prove it was harassment, if he was polite I dont think they could do much about it unless it was excessive ex 20 times in a day.

Even two times a day would be excessive.

 

[cman2010]

Even two times a day would be excessive.

personaly but not legaly.

 

[ash88]

Seriously?

Just to make this plain - if contacting a company, asking to be escalated, and continuing to contact them until you feel you have exhausted your possibilities and then contacting the BBB - if someone believes this string of events describes an indictable offense / felony ... well... that's the best proof I have ever heard for why lay people shouldn't discuss law on the internet. Moving on...

Misotu summed it up well:

no-one on this board, I think, would expect to get their money back because they don't like the game However, lack of advertised functionality, continual crashing and serious performance issues (my large map game took nearly 8 minutes to load this evening! And my system exceeds dramatically the minimum requirements to run the game) are legitimate cause for complaint to the vendor and the developer. I am willing to see if further patches fix the performance/crashing issues, but if not then I will be contacting both Steam and Firaxis/2k to complain and ask for a refund because, in all honesty, the game is not playable for me at the moment and I think it unreasonable to market a game which is, clearly, not at present of marketable quality.

I don't understand why people are continuing to put forward the idea that you should only bring in the BBB if the law is broken. If that is the case, looking at the BBB statistics for companies, EA games has had 866 complaints in the last year - and has resolved 668 of them. Are you trying to say that the company acknowledged that it broke the law 668 times? That's ridiculous.

The fact is 866 people contacted the BBB because they were not satisfied that the company was working towards building a trusting marketplace, out of those 866 people 668 were satisfied with the solution EA proposed to them. For all of their crappy games and whining on the forums, that isn't a bad ratio.

So think about this critically people...

866 people contacted EA, escalated in EA, and then contacted the BBB because they were unsatisfied. 668 of those people became satisfied with the arbitrated solution that EA proposed through the BBB. EA has a score of "A" on the BBB site.

I can guarantee you if 668 people proved through the BBB that EA had broken the law - well - the BBB score would be the least of their problems.

Consumer Advocacy is very misunderstood (as evidenced by this thread). Embrace your rights as a consumer. You are not powerless. Even if you are thrilled with Civ 5 (and I for one hope you are!) just keep this info tucked away for the future.

Cheers

 

[tom2050]

As Charon mentioned, there are scams and scammers, corrupt and corruption in practically every part of the world and in every organization on planet Earth, but that doesn't really have anything to do with anything here. Charon, you should have contacted someone if you got scammed by someone. Furthermore, you should be aware scammers exist in this world. If someone tells you they want $1440... or even $50, in the future try looking into it first to find out what is really going on or if it's legitimate before handing out your money.

Civ 5 was released unfinished IMO, gameplay broken, and it will not likely be fixed within any reasonable expectations that even remotely conform to the hype 2K put out about the game.

It's not about the money... if you are unsatisfied (as I was and still am) then calling customer service, emailing support; and going additional steps if necessary is a responsible thing for a consumer to do in all circumstances of purchases. You should never roll over and 'just accept' a broken product you purchased. If you do just 'take it', I'll sell you a bunch of great items at great (high) prices that don't work.

The majority of games nowadays are released unfinished, broken, and many are never fixed. I do it just based on principle alone. Getting your money back would just be an added bonus; letting them know about your dissatisfaction in 'real' ways that may have a real impact is what matters.

Even Ubisoft has an A+.

 

[cman2010]

As Charon mentioned, there are scams and scammers, corrupt and corruption in practically every part of the world and in every organization on planet Earth, but that doesn't really have anything to do with anything here. Charon, you should have contacted someone if you got scammed by someone. Furthermore, you should be aware scammers exist in this world. If someone tells you they want $1440... or even $50, in the future try looking into it first to find out what is really going on or if it's legitimate before handing out your money.

Civ 5 was released unfinished IMO, gameplay broken, and it will not likely be fixed within any reasonable expectations that even remotely conform to the hype 2K put out about the game.

It's not about the money... if you are unsatisfied (as I was and still am) then calling customer service, emailing support; and going additional steps if necessary is a responsible thing for a consumer to do in all circumstances of purchases. You should never roll over and 'just accept' a broken product you purchased. If you do just 'take it', I'll sell you a bunch of great items at great (high) prices that don't work.

The majority of games nowadays are released unfinished, broken, and many are never fixed. I do it just based on principle alone. Getting your money back would just be an added bonus; letting them know about in ways that possibly impact more than an online blog is what matters.

lol I love it when people like you and the op say someone is just rolling over and taking it. the op spent tons of hours and time as documented in his post just to get 20 bucks back most people just dont have time for that, I personaly think my time is more vauable than this its not like its the end of the world that they made a bad game for crying out loud.

 

[HoTT-NiXX]

Ok I just prefer to view the site and not comment but this one just made me laugh with all the BBB talk. Just wanted to make sure that some information is out there. BBB is not a government agency. It is a business that gives accreditation to other businesses much like LEED. Also, they do charge businesses an annual charge to "join" the BBB. A company cannot receive the highest BBB rating without paying and if a business were to pay their score would be increased. How do I know this? I worked in an establishment that was next door to a BBB office and later became a salesman for them. In case anyone asks, yes, when I say salesman I actually mean that I was an annoying telemarketer. Also, I wasn't fired and although the work sucked I enjoyed the people I worked with including my boss.

 

[tom2050]

lol I love it when people like you and the op say someone is just rolling over and taking it. the op spent tons of hours and time as documented in his post just to get 20 bucks back most people just dont have time for that, I personaly think my time is more vauable than this its not like its the end of the world that they made a bad game for crying out loud.

In that case, I'll sell you something that's great for $20. I swear it works. How about I give you the eBay link... and if it doesn't work, please don't complain, just accept it like you have promised to here.

If you buy a broken car, don't do anything about it, just take it... because you might be able to make $10000 in less time (yes, it is possible).

If a consumer feels dissatisfied, the responsible course of action is to do something about, regardless of the cost of the product. First step being contacting customer service. Many times someone may not know what to do. That is what this thread is for, nothing else.

If someone wants to know the inside's and out's of the BBB, it's always best to research the information yourself, than to 'take someone's word'. Try wikipedia. If you don't trust wikipedia for general good information, their are plenty of other reputable sources to get info from.

 

[charon2112]

...Civ 5 was released unfinished IMO, gameplay broken, and it will not likely be fixed within any reasonable expectations that even remotely conform to the hype 2K put out about the game...

That's just it, it's unfinished in your opinion, the game worked fine for me from day one. Now, if someone has a legitimate technical problem, and Firaxis ignores that person's request for assistance, then that would be bad customer service and could warrant these actions.

But what this thread is really all about is people complaining loudly to the game maker because they don't like their game.

 

[builer680]

That's just it, it's unfinished in your opinion, the game worked fine for me from day one. Now, if someone has a legitimate technical problem, and Firaxis ignores that person's request for assistance, then that would be bad customer service and could warrant these actions.

But what this thread is really all about is people complaining loudly to the game maker because they don't like their game.

1. There is nothing wrong with complaining loudly with an opinion. Channeled correctly, it can be a force for change.

2. Some things that were advertised, such as DLC Civs in Multiplayer, are outright lies. This is not opinion.

Now, I don't think doing this will get anywhere either, but I sure won't try to ridicule people for trying to get what they want.

If seeing people trying to organize themselves, in order to present a more unified voice for their complaints, bothers you so much that you feel the need to mock their efforts for fear of them having an effect... you're perfectly free to organize mass praise of 2k to the BBB as well.

If it doesn't bother you, then why are you typing so many words to convince people that it's not worth their time? If it won't have an effect (which I don't believe it will either), it shouldn't make a difference to you what they do.

Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that you are here solely to amuse yourself by causing trouble and derailing the thread. The reason I'm posting in this thread isn't because I think complaining to the BBB will do much... but the people who want to do so are perfectly free to do it without derision from you. I felt someone needed to tell you that, since no one (including mods) has done so yet.

 

[charon2112]

I didn't ridicule, I didn't mock and no one received any derision from me. If you want to have a conversation, please be a little more accurate with your accusations.

And nobody is calling the BBB and the FTC because there are no DLC Civs in multiplayer. Is that really the best "legitimate" problem you can come up with?

1. There is nothing wrong with complaining loudly with an opinion. Channeled correctly, it can be a force for change.

2. Some things that were advertised, such as DLC Civs in Multiplayer, are outright lies. This is not opinion.

Now, I don't think doing this will get anywhere either, but I sure won't try to ridicule people for trying to get what they want.

If seeing people trying to organize themselves, in order to present a more unified voice for their complaints, bothers you so much that you feel the need to mock their efforts for fear of them having an effect... you're perfectly free to organize mass praise of 2k to the BBB as well.

If it doesn't bother you, then why are you typing so many words to convince people that it's not worth their time? If it won't have an effect (which I don't believe it will either), it shouldn't make a difference to you what they do.

Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that you are here solely to amuse yourself by causing trouble and derailing the thread. The reason I'm posting in this thread isn't because I think complaining to the BBB will do much... but the people who want to do so are perfectly free to do it without derision from you. I felt someone needed to tell you that, since no one (including mods) has done so yet.

 

[builer680]

I didn't ridicule, I didn't mock and no one received any derision from me. If you want to have a conversation, please be a little more accurate with your accusations.

Let's see if I can "be a little more accurate with my accusations"...

But what this thread is really all about is people complaining loudly to the game maker because they don't like their game.

This is deriding. (To laugh at with contempt; to laugh to scorn; to turn to ridicule or make sport of; to mock; to scoff at. [1913 Webster])

Um, you shouldn't really encourage people to call companies and be d**k-heads just because you don't like their videogame.

This is mocking. (To treat with scorn or contempt; to deride.) [1913 Webster]

Also, the BBB is a joke, they aren't a government run organization, they are a private company and you can pay them for a good rating.

This is deriding (the 'joke' part, the rest is fact). (To laugh at with contempt; to laugh to scorn; to turn to ridicule or make sport of; to mock; to scoff at. [1913 Webster])

I'm glad to help you learn the definition of two new words today. If I ever do get a refund for Civ V, maybe I'll be able to send you a dictionary so you can look them up yourself next time. The fact is, you aren't contributing anything useful and are only here to stir people up and derail the topic.

Moderator Action: Your last line is over the line, don't accuse people of trolling.

 

[Moss]

Moderator Action: Right now, I think the discussion is going okay. However, please refrain from any more arguing about the semantics of whether someone is ridiculing or deriding the other (leave that up to us) and just focus on the topic, thanks.

 

[tom2050]

That's just it, it's unfinished in your opinion, the game worked fine for me from day one.

According to a few of the hype quotes even shown in this thread, the game doesn't live up to them. That is why I wrote it doesn't conform to the hype and promise they placed on the game and gave to fans (with a big sloppy kiss as they said). Therefore, consumers have legitimate reason to contact 2K/Firaxis in a polite manner to convey their dissatisfaction (or satisfaction if they choose) through legitimate means that the system has in place.

I will not go into details and discussion as to if the game is finished or unfinished. General consensus on these forums leans towards the game was rushed/ not polished/ not finished. But that is irrelevant in this thread, since this thread is only meant to give information.

If anyone has any better or additional ways (if customer service options are not satisfactory) other than the BBB, please state them as it would be helpful.

 

[ash88]

to the op you spent all that time just to get 20.00 back your time must not be that valuable then.

I am always amused at the irony when people take the time to tell strangers on the internet that their time is not valuable.

For my part, I consider educating people and furthering the goals of consumer rights a service I provide to communities of intelligent people (like the posters at Civfanatics). I enjoy seeing the people that "get it" and I feel a sense of satisfaction when I hear that people have taken part or have seen results.

Now, as we are a group of people that enjoy sitting in front of a computer screen pushing "next turn, next turn" for hours on end - do we really need to discuss the constructiveness of what people enjoy doing with their free time?

I'd prefer not to do that here - I get enough of that from my woman.

Cheers

 

[ash88]

That's just it, it's unfinished in your opinion, the game worked fine for me from day one.

Is that really the best "legitimate" problem you can come up with?

I really envy that you have had no serious issues. That isn't the point of this thread though (there are already a ton of threads where people talk about their specific issues).

The point is that people are allowed to act on their own opinion and experience. Not only that but people have had different experiences with the game.

Now the question is - is it appropriate to blanket-judge what "is" and "is not" a legitimate reason for someone to contact some agency? Keep in mind that if someone contacts an agency inappropriately that agency has the ability to tell them so; they don't need us to do that for them.

On the other hand, is it appropriate to give people knowledge and tools and let them discover what they can and cannot do for themselves? After all, one fact we can establish is that at least some people have contacted 2k, and the BBB, and have seen an agreeable result come of it.

As for what you personally deem as reasons that are "legitimate" enough to contact the BBB - Misotu gave a great summary that I have already quoted. If those aren't reasonable examples for you then I respect that. However they are firmly in the realm of consumer advocacy rights.