RevolutionDCM for BTS

[glider1]

@Willem
Yep I'm with you. Definetly worth making this religion limitation a configurable option. Perhaps it could be viewed as a complimentary option to Revolutions itself for those who want more stable AI's, rather than as an extension to Inquisitions. I agree with you that quite possibly games will be more interesting too. Let us know if you think the code for doing it is solid. It has to be reliable. That is a definite requirement. RevolutionDCM is a very stable mod base at the moment.

I'm working on the C++ end of Super Spies at the moment. As soon as Super Spies is finished, will begin work on Inquisitions for RevDCM. Keep them ideas coming! As for Inquisitors working internationally only during war, hmmmmm. It seems a bit arbitrary in a sense. Will look into the history of the crusades a bit more.

Cheers

 

[Willem]

Will look into the history of the crusades a bit more.

Here's a link you can check out. There's certainly lots of precedence for one religion trying to stamp out another through force. And there were no doubt clerics that went along for the ride spreading the "proper" faith. At the very least, Inquisitors should be active in a campaign that's declared by a decree from the Apostolic Palace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war

 

[phungus420]

Here's a link you can check out. There's certainly lots of precedence for one religion trying to stamp out another through force. And there were no doubt clerics that went along for the ride spreading the "proper" faith. At the very least, Inquisitors should be active in a campaign that's declared by a decree from the Apostolic Palace.

Just take along an inquisitor and use it when you capture the city then.

Devinately only use the 1 religion founding per civ thing if it can be optional though. Part of the fun in the game for me is trying to capture multiple religions.

 

[glider1]

@Phungus and Willem
Ok we now have two people (three including myself) that think limited religions should be included as a configurable option.

Excellent thought that AI inquisitors should be brought along when a war is decreed by the AP. If the war is not decreed by the AP, what governs the inclusion of an AI Inquisitor in the war stack? Perhaps AI states that are actually running a theocratic state as well as possessing a state religion should bring an inquisitor along?

It will take some time to work out the mechanics of the international application of the inquisitor. If it is limited to warfare, then getting the AI to attach an inquisitor to the city attack stack shouldn't be too difficult. If human's deploy inquisitors, they will have the added advantage of being able to sneak in inquisitors into under-defended cities and this will tend to be an exploit relative to the mindless AI. How bad an exploit is unclear to me.

This then would leave the issue about the inquisitors odds of success. Already we have a chance of success for national inquisitions, what, an international inquisition in the context of war should be twice as likely to succeed perhaps?

Good stuff. Keep em ideas coming.
Cheers.

EDIT: Orion's version of Inquisition could be used as a basis for the RevolutionDCM version:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10325

Already these are the aspects that could be changed:
1) How foreign inquisitors are used both by the human and the AI
2) Including revolution index effects

Note that Orion's Inquisitions already includes the limited religion option. This makes life easier for me.

 

[Forsaken]

ever thought of adding 3 square city radius to this mod

 

[glider1]

@forsaken
Those type of mods are beyond the scope of RevolutionDCM. A three square radius is a big change to the game and has no relevance to this mod's component parts ie) Revolutions, DCM, IDW, Better BTS AI.
Cheers.

 

[Forsaken]

bummer cause your mod has everything else i ever wanted in a mod

But i still love your mod

 

[Dementual]

Hey glider, any idea where I could find a copy of the pre-BUG3 RevolutionDCM? I used to play with some module civs from Civ Gold, but unfortunately they don't work with the latest RevolutionDCM, and I'd like to revert back (it's hard to go from 40+ civs back down to 20-something ) That and I miss the Revolution Index in the city view.

Thanks!

 

[phungus420]

Glider you missinterpreted me. I'm going to be blunt here, International inquistions are stupid, they should not be implemented. Willem's point about using that at war is moot. If you want, you have the option to bring along an inquisitor and use it in a city that you capture. You should not ever, in any way be a able to use an inquisitor in a foreign city. The only acception I could see would be a limited "Grand Inquisitor" national unit that could be built by the AP, 1 limit, and could only be used in civs that you have OB with and that are also running Theo, and like the AP builder are the AP religion. Inquisitions also should only be allowed to be built and used by civs in Theo, and arguably OR, it makes no sense to allow them in Paganism or Pascifism. As for teaching the AI to bring an Inquistor with it in a stack and using it on a newly captured city, I'm all for it, but the regular rules of an Inquistor should apply.

 

[glider1]

@Phungus
Yep, suits me fine. Limiting to national inquisitions will be much easier to code and test and will produce a higher quality result. The complexity of international inquisition is not a trivial problem believe me. National inquisitions are much easier for the AI to get a handle on. International inquisition opens up a real can of worms in that respect. It can be achieved but it would need a large chunk of time to do properly. As for the Grand Inquisitor, might just skip that unless Orion's Inquisitions mod implements it nicely.

Keep in mind that Willem was not proposing international inquisitions either in a broad sense, just from the standpoint of including an inquisitor with the AI attack stack. However even a simple notion like this is really opening the can of worms. You would have to put in a possible dodgy limitation like saying that inquisitors can only be used internationally if they are amongst a war stack of x-size for example and that they cannot be deployed in smaller stacks or individually....

Any other issues you perceive regarding Orion's implementation of Inquisitions? What about the religious victory condition?

Wonder what Duuky boy another inquisition player thinks?
Cheers

 

[glider1]

Hey glider, any idea where I could find a copy of the pre-BUG3 RevolutionDCM?

Yeah the pre-bug RevDCM was a simpler interface and quite clean. You'd be looking for RevDCM 0.94 which was a very stable build in all respects prior to the first 0.95 release of the BUG build. I have to pace myself with the uploading because of my ISP (no more than 10MB per day for me on a mobile phone connection). If no-one has uploaded a copy for you, I will try to do so in the next day or two.

Cheers.

 

[glider1]

bummer cause your mod has everything else i ever wanted in a mod

Consider learning a bit of python or C++ and you can change RevDCM yourself. Either that or find a revdcm mod out there that already has it. Have you tried the new Civ search engine?

Cheers.

 

[Atwork]

I am late to the conversation, but I fervently dislike the 'one religion per civ' idea. In less I am mistaken somehow, if there were only one religion per civ, flipping a rival civ's religion would be impossible. No?

 

[Willem]

I am late to the conversation, but I fervently dislike the 'one religion per civ' idea. In less I am mistaken somehow, if there were only one religion per civ, flipping a rival civ's religion would be impossible. No?

It's not "one religion per civ", it's a civ can only found one religion. There can still be multiple religions in a city but each civ can only have one Holy City.

BTW Glider, I ran through to the middle ages with that mod and I didn't see any problems with it. In fact it added a nice diversity in religions . My continent had Hinduism, Judaism, and Confucianism factions and when I came into contact with someone from the other continent they had Buddhism. It made the game pretty lively. Too lively in fact. Julius and Frederick, two of the three Hindus, along with Julius' vassal Rossevelt, the Judaist, kept joining forces against me and my vassal Peter, the Confucianists. And unfortunately Peter sucked at military matters so it was pretty much me against the two strongest armies in the world. I finally packed it in after awhile.

 

[Forsaken]

Consider learning a bit of python or C++ and you can change RevDCM yourself. Either that or find a revdcm mod out there that already has it. Have you tried the new Civ search engine?

Cheers.

Hehe wish i was that good, give me a pile of hardware and i can put togeather a system and make it work but when it comes to codeing its like me trying to learn some obscure ancient launguage .

Either way i still enjoy and play your mod. I'm waiting for the WOC guys to get revolutions turned into a module .

 

[Dementual]

Yeah the pre-bug RevDCM was a simpler interface and quite clean. You'd be looking for RevDCM 0.94 which was a very stable build in all respects prior to the first 0.95 release of the BUG build. I have to pace myself with the uploading because of my ISP (no more than 10MB per day for me on a mobile phone connection). If no-one has uploaded a copy for you, I will try to do so in the next day or two.

Cheers.

Thanks for the help, glider. I really appreciate it.

 

[glider1]

BTW Glider, I ran through to the middle ages with that mod and I didn't see any problems with it. In fact it added a nice diversity in religions

Great thanks for the feedback and for making aware of it. I'm sure one founding religion per civ has to be included in as a configurable option for this mod. I'm quite enthusiastic to try it. Luckily Orion has thought of making it configurable and so this should be easier to port across. Note that Orion's inquisitions also makes foreign inquisitions a configurable option.

At this stage, the latest Inquisition proposals are then:
1) Inquisitor can purge so long as there is a state religion and Theology has been researched.
2) The founding religion of a holy city cannot be purged.
3) Purges can be carried out on any city in the empire and if successful, will remove all non-state religions and buildings except in case (2) where the founding religion of the holy city cannot be removed, but all it's religious buildings CAN be destroyed.
4) An Inquisition is a national activity ONLY
5) The hits on diplomacy, happiness and rev index stay as is.
6) The probabilities of successful purges remain as is.
7) Inquisitors are built directly and do not require a holy office.
8) Newly captured cities in anarchy CAN be purged.

Point (7) is in there because I think it would just dissipate the AI's attentions. Already the AI tends to be poorly focused on it's build schedules, and forcing an AI to have built a holy office before being able to build inquisitors, will cause the AI to waste precious productivity in certain situations (*I think*)

Orion Veteran's Inquisition link is:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10325

His religious victory conditions look like possibly be satisfyable even without foreign inquisitions. The main point is that the state religion has to be 80% globally significant. Can this be achieved without foreign inquisitions? The only possibility is through war it would seem. The idea to get to 80% without foreign inquisitors would be to capture enemy cities with foreign religions, purge them and then if the economy cannot stand the capture, give the purged city back.

So the question is, does the religious victory condition mean anything without foreign operating inquisitors?

Cheers

 

[Willem]

I have to pace myself with the uploading because of my ISP (no more than 10MB per day for me on a mobile phone connection).

Geez, and I thought I had it bad at 100 meg per day.

 

[glider1]

Thanks for the help, glider. I really appreciate it.

Cool. Here's the latest build just prior to BUG. Note that no addon's will work except for the SS addon included in the zip.

Cheers.

 

[phungus420]

At this stage, the latest Inquisition proposals are then:
1) Inquisitor can purge so long as there is a state religion and Theology has been researched.
2) The founding religion of a holy city cannot be purged.
3) Purges can be carried out on any city in the empire and if successful, will remove all non-state religions and buildings except in case (2) where the founding religion of the holy city cannot be removed, but all it's religious buildings CAN be destroyed.
4) An Inquisition is a national activity ONLY
5) The hits on diplomacy, happiness and rev index stay as is.
6) The probabilities of successful purges remain as is.
7) Inquisitors are built directly and do not require a holy office.
8) Newly captured cities in anarchy CAN be purged.

Are you going to allow Inquisitions in Paganism and Pacifism civics? It would make more sense to have them restricted to Theocracy, and arguably OR (Though Theo only is also a logical way to implement it). While this game is only loosly based on history, and realism, it makes zero sense for a pagan society or a pasifist society to undertake an inquisition.

Also as far as the optional 1 religion founding per civ, I believe this also makes it so that after 10 turns the Holy City is lost if captured. I strongly recommend you remove this aspect of it. In the default game it makes some sense in that it encourages more religious coverage by various civs, but with revolutions Holy Cities carry their own advantages/disadvantages and it would be unfortunate to loose this gameplay aspect. It also really discourages Free Religion I believe. At least I'm assuming this is the code from the Total Realism mod, which does that.