RFC Europe Wonders

[ezzlar]

Well, once Bibliotecha Corvinia is complete I pick R.A in 99% of the cases. With tech penalty all the wonders are mine long before the AI gets past thoses 120558 buld requirements for the tech.

Leonardos Workshop is of course built in your top hammer city which then becomes wonder/project city number one. Once you can complete wonders in the same number of turns as an average cities build a blacksmith the game becomes distorted.

Edit: Paco Da Ribeira needs new or more powers since golden age gives you free civic change.

 

[Tigranes]

Palazzo San Giorgio is effectively present twice in a mod. One time as a corporation HQ and another time as a wonder. RA should have a Wonder about music. European mod without a single wonder about the classical music does not sound right. Also Galileo telescope could replace countless palaces we have in the mod.

 

[Nintz]

The Paco da Ribeira allows for unlimited civic change without anarchy.

In RFC, that is huge. GAs may also achieve that effect, but I for one don't get them that often (especially late-game when you need 3 or more GP for a GA).

I would say to leave that wonder as is.

 

[Wessel V1]

I love that wonder, so please don't change it. I like all other stuff at Public Works as well, it's by far my favourite tech. It allows you to expand stability, health and civic option all at the same time. What else would you need?

 

[ezzlar]

Well, it used to be one of my favourite wonders but now:

- Early change for manorialism/serfdom combo with a stability hit
- Then either a 2xGP golden age where I adjust the rest of the civics like feudal law and monarchy
- Or 2/3 UHVs free golden age I make the transit to cottage economy and all the best civics

I dont see where Paco fits anymore, when you have the later civics you wont go back to the old ones. Try the Alhambra/Organized religion/National epic trio and you have as many GP as you wish.

 

[merijn_v1]

A way to solve the overpowered Chateau the Fontainebleau:

The Palazzo San Giorgio can be removed, because it's the same as the Corporation. The bonus of this wonder (1 free specialist in every city) goes to the Chateau and the Chateau gets rid of the +1 for each specialist.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The Paco da Ribeira allows for unlimited civic change without anarchy.

In RFC, that is huge. GAs may also achieve that effect, but I for one don't get them that often (especially late-game when you need 3 or more GP for a GA).

I would say to leave that wonder as is.

I love that wonder, so please don't change it.

Agreed, Paco de Ribeira is still quite powerful. I don't intend to change it

 

[AbsintheRed]

A way to solve the overpowered Chateau the Fontainebleau:

The Palazzo San Giorgio can be removed, because it's the same as the Corporation. The bonus of this wonder (1 free specialist in every city) goes to the Chateau and the Chateau gets rid of the +1 for each specialist.

I would rather try to balance the wonders before we removing anything
I agree though, we already have enough palace wonders

RA should have a Wonder about music. European mod without a single wonder about the classical music does not sound right. Also Galileo telescope could replace countless palaces we have in the mod.

What's your idea for a classical music wonder?

 

[Tigranes]

Agreed, Paco de Ribeira is still quite powerful. I don't intend to change it

PdR is more powerful that GA, since with GA you still have to wait 5 turns until you change civics. I always go for that Wonder and it always feels like cheating. Its absolutely unrealistic, absolutely overpowered compared to other wonders and pre-defines the style of your game more than any other single wonder, plus it comes much earlier compared to CR in RFC (it is kind of ironic that both CR and PdR belong to the Portuguese speaking country . Let me remind those who love that wonder how awkward was it initially to play without whip. I was getting frustrated sometimes, but then just adjusted my gamestyle and now even remember RFCE as "that mod without whip".

Another irony is that Portugal's Palace (yet another palace ) symbolizes continued tradition of monarchy, not the change of civics without anarchy. NO society in human history had anything remotely similar to the effects of PdR. You are Divine Monarchy for 2 years, then Merchant Republic for the next two and Limited Monarchy for another two (two years=1 turn). For the mod that goes so far as to impose heavy penalty for researching techs that were not historically discovered at that time, for the mod that broke our chop and whip addiction (I love our dense forests) -- this wonder is just way too unrealistic and overpowered.

If anything I would argue that we need to go in the opposite direction, that change in (at least Government) civics should produce more than anarchy, it should produce Civil War, some Independents who take over your city and fight with you, like Taborists in RFCE++ ... Think about Oliver Cromwell and Charles I -- monarchs rarely allow transition to the Limited Monarchy without a fight. Yet alone no anarchy and every single turn!

 

[Tigranes]

I would rather try to balance the wonders before we removing anything
I agree though, we already have enough palace wonders



What's your idea for a classical music wonder?

Bach. Leonardo, Michelangelo and Bach were inalienably an important part of Civ since Civ I. We have Leonardo and Michelangelo (Sistine Chapel), but no Bach Many would say that Franz Joseph Haydn was named the father of Classical music. With the court musicians at Esterhazy and the royal trumpets/kettledrums, Haydn created the first modern symphony orchestra and was writing in the style that became known as Classical to later generations. But old good Bach's cathedral sounds both nostalgic and fitting to this mod.

We can connect Bach with Protestantism in some way, for additional flavor (require Religion present to build it). As for effects we already have so many Wonders(Palaces) that I would recommend just replaces one of the palaces with Bach. Chateau Fontainebleau comes the first to my mind. After all, when they say now -- classical music they mean European music and we need to celebrate it in Europe's mod somehow... Even culture symbol is a music note! And yet we have no music I mean, if you ask me to name any famous Hungarian (not just composer) the first name would be Liszt . Norwegian? Grieg! Finn? Sibelius! Austrian? Mozart! Pole? Chopin! Lest can go on and on. All these geniuses where inspired by European music created before them. Even though Bach's fame in his lifetime came mostly as an organist, more than a composer, he still is the best name to represent the raise of European music.

Sistine Chapel's effect is very fitting for Bach's Cathedral -- many specialists started to play music and generate +2 culture. Chateau Fontainebleau's effect can go to Chapel, so there!

 

[rrosen]

In Civ 2, JS Bach's Cathedral had the effect currently being assigned to Notre Dame, it'd be fun if you payed homage to that

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm in the process of updating the art of the wonders
Some examples are attached: Triumphal Arch, Round Church, Copernicus Observatory, Amsterdam Beurs, Gardens of Al-Andalus

I'm also thinking about changing Paco da Ribeira into Palacia de Pena.
It feels strange to have the Ribeira with a very accurate art of the other wonder
Alternatively, I can separate them to have 2 distinct wonders...
What do you think?

Also, I'm more or less tend to include JS Bach's Cathedral
Tigranes made a good point about having a musical wonder in the mod
Also, opinions on this?

Finally, a Lithuanian wonder would be great
Gediminas' Tower and Trakai Island Castle was brought up earlier
Thoughts on that?

 

[merijn_v1]

I like the new art, but isn't the new art for the Round Church already in use for one of the Orthodox religious buildings? If so, I don't think we should use the same art for both buildings.

In a previous version, the Paco da Ribeira was called Palacio de Pena. I have no idea why it's changed to Paco da Ribeira. The art indeed resembles the Palacio de Pena. I don't mind if you change that.
I'm not sure if making it 2 wonders is a good idea. I think there are enough wonders, and I don't have any idea what bonus it should give. However, if we find a very nice bonus, I don't mind if 1 wonder is added. But we shouldn't add a wonder just for the sake of adding.

Same story here, if we can find a nice bonus, I don't mind if it's added. But keep the Engineering quote in mind.

You can guess now what I have to say about the Lithuanian wonder.

 

[ezzlar]

Cathedral sounds nice! I think it should be religion specific (protestantism)!

While we are at it I think Copernicus Observatory should be protestant as well to show the power of the catholic church.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I like the new art, but isn't the new art for the Round Church already in use for one of the Orthodox religious buildings? If so, I don't think we should use the same art for both buildings.

Yeah, it's the orthodox seminary
But I think it's more fitting art for a wonder (and too many polygons for a common building which is built in every other city), so planned to change the seminary art to something simpler.

In a previous version, the Paco da Ribeira was called Palacio de Pena. I have no idea why it's changed to Paco da Ribeira. The art indeed resembles the Palacio de Pena. I don't mind if you change that.
I'm not sure if making it 2 wonders is a good idea. I think there are enough wonders, and I don't have any idea what bonus it should give. However, if we find a very nice bonus, I don't mind if 1 wonder is added. But we shouldn't add a wonder just for the sake of adding.

Same story here, if we can find a nice bonus, I don't mind if it's added. But keep the Engineering quote in mind.

You can guess now what I have to say about the Lithuanian wonder.

I feel that most of our current wonders are overpowered
So my plan is to nerf most bonuses
But if this happens, there might be a place for a couple new wonders

The mod could use some more Orthodox wonders too
For example the Boyana Church came up, which I kinda liked

Also we only have 3 naval wonders... In a mod about colonization!?
Definitely need some more here. At least the Venitian Arsenal (call it Grand Arsenal to be distinct from the UB)
And probably one directly about colonization (+10% for production for colonies)

Cathedral sounds nice! I think it should be religion specific (protestantism)!

While we are at it I think Copernicus Observatory should be protestant as well to show the power of the catholic church.

Yeah, some of the wonders can go religions specific
Especially if we will have a couple new wonders...

 

[simplicissimus]

Grand Arsenal sounds great. Recently read an article about it. Preindustrial example of smithian division of labour! A must-have I would say. What about the London Docks? But I have to say I don´t know when they exactly have been build. Probably too late for our time period.

For Orthodox wonders: what about Mount Athos?

I recently been in Innsbruck where there is the cenotaph of emperor Maximilian I. in the Hofkirche (court-church). The church yet seemed not that big or impressive to me (and maybe we won´t need another church) but the it is the biggest grave of an emperor - altough he is not buried there. The cenotaph is surrounded by many large statues of famous ancestors and heroes (3 of them created by Albrecht Duerer!) like a very little version of the Terracotta Army. It even should´ve been much more statues but decades after the emperors death they stopped the work. It should show the glory and legitimacy of Habsburg´s rule. So Maximilian´s cenotaph probably could be used to boost stability for it´s builder.

Another question: are the cordoban wonders linked to Islam? I recently saw Germany building some of them. And what if Medina Azahara would be added as a wonder. It impressed me more than the Generalife or do we have enough wonders for Al Andalus?

 

[Depravo]

Plymouth was built virtually ex nihilo by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Dummer_(naval_engineer) in the 1690s and works quite well as a Civ style wonder. An alternative might be Chatham or Portsmouth both of which received serious central government attention during the same period and were the origin of several important technical innovations which helped give the Royal Navy that eighteenth century edge. The docks at Woolwich, Deptford etc were important, but much older.

NAM Rodger wrote the dockyards entered the Industrial Revolution a century in advance of the rest of the country.

 

[AbsintheRed]

For Orthodox wonders: what about Mount Athos?

I was thinking about a representation of the monasteries in Greece
Mount Athos is not a wonder, but Hilandar Monastery might be an option

I recently been in Innsbruck where there is the cenotaph of emperor Maximilian I. in the Hofkirche (court-church). The church yet seemed not that big or impressive to me (and maybe we won´t need another church) but the it is the biggest grave of an emperor - altough he is not buried there. The cenotaph is surrounded by many large statues of famous ancestors and heroes (3 of them created by Albrecht Duerer!) like a very little version of the Terracotta Army. It even should´ve been much more statues but decades after the emperors death they stopped the work. It should show the glory and legitimacy of Habsburg´s rule. So Maximilian´s cenotaph probably could be used to boost stability for it´s builder.

The cenopath (and what it represents) isn't enough to be a wonder IMO
We already have a tomb, and I'm not fond of that either

Plymouth was built virtually ex nihilo by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Dummer_(naval_engineer) in the 1690s and works quite well as a Civ style wonder. An alternative might be Chatham or Portsmouth both of which received serious central government attention during the same period and were the origin of several important technical innovations which helped give the Royal Navy that eighteenth century edge. The docks at Woolwich, Deptford etc were important, but much older.

How is that a wonder?
Plymouth docks? Or you meant Plymouth itself?
Sorry, but it doesn't qualify as a wonder in my judgement

 

[ezzlar]

The cordoban wonders are tied to the tech Arabic Knowledge which all the islamic civs start with. It is not tied to islam so Germany can build it once they discover the tech!

 

[simplicissimus]

The cenopath (and what it represents) isn't enough to be a wonder IMO
We already have a tomb, and I'm not fond of that either

I thought so and basically agree but if I remember right someone once mentioned that a wonder to push stability would be great and when I saw the cenotaph and read in my guide about what it represents it came to my mind again. Just an idea.

I was thinking about a representation of the monasteries in Greece
Mount Athos is not a wonder, but Hilandar Monastery might be an option

Sorry if I wasn´t expressing myself clearly but that was what I ment!