Rhye's Catapult

I started 5 games with France... :

1. Got destroyed about 980 ad, by Spain and Rome. All of Europe were budists, and as I was trying to be christian France... didn't work out...

2. Went alright. I'd only got 3 cities, due to Rome and Spain...

3. Very strange... Rome, Greece and almost all of Africa was controlled by barbarians. Was very surprissed to see a coupple of barb-workers and the sign of a barb city... obviously, i didn't play that game.

4 & 5. The same as #3.

The thing about france... Paris has a hard time completing/constructing. In my last three games, I was struggling to build units, and every game spain declared war on me. It's a bit tricky for France.. - or me atleast right now...:)
 
Just got owned as China on the top difficulty. Was going for economic powerhouse, got slapped the f@ck down by barbs. Pretty funny actually :p

Later on, I managed to pull it back together, but by that time I was so far behind in techs... that I used the edit function, gave myself 200 nukes, and obliterated the planet. I can only take so much lip from those uppity ai :p
 
Gonna try France on easy mode, because I have no doubt (like Kwan found) that they will be a b*tch. I've never seen the AI pop more than 3 cities, and I doubt I could force myself to put them that close together. Gonna go with a French blitz into Italy right off the bat, and pray that Rhye gave me some heavies to pull it through :p
 
Simple is the key, because even the best ideas are worthless if it's a pain to make them work in the game! I'm no programmer (literally, I haven't a clue), but a starting point would be something like:

Turn=[Arab start]
VAR=MECCA (Coordinates of Mecca)
VAR=CITY (Any city, not Arab, obviously)
IF: CITY within # tiles of MECCA
THEN: Delete CITY
SpawnCiv=Arabia
SpawnUnit=[Arab starting units]

(So any city too close to where the Arabs' settlers and starting units spawn get deleted before Arabia's units spawn. Now to see if any cities flip.)

Turn=[Arab start]+1

(Negative integer values)

VAR=UNHAPPY.CITY (total discontent of a given city)
VAR=CAP_DIST.CITY (distance from capitol of a given city)
VAR=TOTAL_MAINTENANCE.CIV (total maintenance costs of ALL cities)
VAR=PAST_BARB_ATTKS.CITY (# of barbarian attacks on the city)
VAR=FOREIGN_WARS=[{units in enemy territory} - {units in home territory}] / [total # of units]

(Positive integer values)

VAR=GARRISON.CITY (# of units in the city)
VAR=CULTURE.CITY (culture in city)
VAR=CULTURE_RATE (culture rate of civ)
VAR=DIPLOMACY (some measure of diplomatic relations of civ with others, maybe total attitude of other civs, so either positive or negative)
VAR=TECH (difference in technologies between civ and spawning civ)

VAR=CITY.OWNER (Determines who owns city)
VAR=CIV (Civ that controlled city originally)

IF: CITY within # tiles of MECCA
AND: CITY is > 1 tiles from MECCA
AND: UNHAPPY.CITY + CAP_DIST.CITY + TOTAL_MAINTENANCE.CIV + PAST_BARB_ATTKS.CITY + FOREIGN_WARS + GARRISON.CITY + CULTURE.CITY + CULTURE_RATE + DIPLOMACY > [some flip value, to be determined through testing]
THEN: CITY.OWNER=Arabia
ELSE: CITY.OWNER=CIV
THEN: SpawnUnit=[additional war-time and/or missionary units for Arabia]

So by turning all these concepts into integer numbers and adding them together, we have a measure of whether or not the city will flip! Also, because of the range of flipping, even cities like Thebes will be in danger of flipping, technically, but probably wont (of course you could add another two lines that say "IF: CITY=CAPITOL.CIV, THEN: CITY.OWNER=CIV").

So there is a choice, but it's latent. You have the choice of expanding aggressively early on, and risk losing some of your far-flung cities to spawning neighbors, or slowly building up your empire to safe-guard against it.

And to guard against people taking last-minute action to save their city, like upping the culture rate and garrisoning it with units the turn before, you can even add modifiers before each value, and make the "flip" line look like this:

UNHAPPY.CITY + CAP_DIST.CITY + TOTAL_MAINTENANCE.CIV + PAST_BARB_ATTKS.CITY + FOREIGN_WARS + 0.5 * GARRISON.CITY + CULTURE.CITY + 0.5 * CULTURE_RATE + DIPLOMACY > [flip value]

These modifiers themselves can be tweaked and adjusted forever, even to suit different players or Civs!

The only reason I would advocate something this complex, that requires SO much testing, is because it feels like a critical point of the game. If the city-flip-on-spawn is made fair and balanced, it could be one of the defining features of the mod! It basically judges overall gameplay of a player, and rewards/hinders them accordingly. And with the additional units, the non-Arab player will have to be VERY careful around Saladin, with his larger army. Arabia will meanwhile be set to start conquering her unprepared foes.

Also note that this is UNIVERSAL. While I used Arabia as an example, one could easily replace MECCA with WASHINGTON or even CAPITOL.SPAWN_CIV, and Arabia with SPAWN_CIV. So these same variables could apply to multiple civs/cities.

Thoughts, questions, comments? :eek:

As for my short foray into 049b, I played Persia and got CREAMED by barbs later on. Expanded into the Middle East quickly and fended off a few barb attacks from Turkey and the Caucasus Mountains, also noticed that Egypt was COMPLETELY destroyed! Two barb cities with HIGH culture instead, they had founded Hinduism and Buddhism respectively. Made some brief attacks on them for a bit, then 3 barb horse archers appeared VERY close to my capitol, in an unguarded hole in my territory. They destroyed my two defending horse archers, razed a city, and killed an archer in my capitol. Luckily I had rushed another one and was producing a third when reinforcements from the home front showed up, but by that time I had already lost a worker and most of my improvements, plunging me into debt. :cry: I'll be more careful next time, but I think I'll try India instead.

SilverKnight
 
hmmmm, I have actually already written the flip code today, without seeing your proposal, I'm sorry. Mine is simpler than yours but I hope you like it:

In words:
- Any human city discontent OR with no military units OR under occupation OR with foreign culture will flip
- Any human city without any of these but enough distant from capital, and it isn’t a government center, in case the civ has got a decent amount of cities, will flip
 
Test 049 as Rome. Love the native toung cities, although strange to see Thebes not as capital or Egypt. Barbarians are really tough this go around. Greece has been destroyed and teh city of Pella in Macedonian area is buddhist capital.

Noticed though that when My roman settler arived in Athens ruins, I was expecting a romanization of Athens as the city name, but got Antium instead, which surprised me.
 
Wow....while Egypt is growing nicely (although their cities are close together) Persia and Greece have been destroyed by 500AD. Beijing has fallen, and I as rome am surrounded on all sides by barbarian hordes. The 2 African cities that flipped to my culture where taken by Horse archers too easily, and my Greek cities are being constantly bombarded by Swords, Axes and Horse.

Interestingly, Egypt is not being attacked, nor is India.

I am actually looking forward ot the Euro spawns, as it will end the barbarian incursions.
 
Tried two more games with France... And though I got a city in holland, denmark, norway and captured two cities from Spain, the productivity as France was still VERY low. I couldn't produce fast enough, so I was slowly falling behind.

So, I started a game with Spain, to see if I could to the same as Spain AI did to me...
... I got all of Italy, Spain, Greece, NW Africa, and parts of France (France had three cities..). This was partly because Rome was destroyed - but the barbs were the same strengh more or less.

I did this twice. As the human player, you know what to do, and you should simply move two of your settlers to south France, and wait for France to settle, and then build your cities.... then france will be in trouble (especially when Germany spawns..). Then you can decide, whether to move into France , Italy or Africa.. Or just stay where you are...

So, I would say that Spain are more powerfull than France. Military production is VERY fast as Spain, due to lots of hills and good city placing, where as France is very slow - Paris has not a single hill in its radius, and cannot be stopped growing.

Try a game with France and Spain, and see how it goes.
And if you agree.. maybe some changes ...?

Aeon221, how was your game..?
 
Rhye said:
hmmmm, I have actually already written the flip code today, without seeing your proposal, I'm sorry. Mine is simpler than yours but I hope you like it:

In words:
- Any human city discontent OR with no military units OR under occupation OR with foreign culture will flip
- Any human city without any of these but enough distant from capital, and it isn’t a government center, in case the civ has got a decent amount of cities, will flip

May I suggest, at minimum, a theshold for foreign culture flip. Say, 20%? Having 3% Persian culture in Jeruslem shouldn't make it flip to the Arabs. As for the AI, I'm perfectly happy with them automatically seceedeing their cities or whatever. This is a player gameplay issue.

It may be good for simulation purposes, but I really feel that not letting the player have a chance to resist the flip with war is bad gameplay. If the city is going to flip, give the player a pop-up and let them keep the city but be at war with the spawning civilization. Give the spawning civ half a dozen extra attackers and a couple seige units and let us slug it out.

For example, in my case, I probably would have just let the northern city (Tyre?) go as 'not worth the effort' if, say, the Turks had spawned up there or something, but Jeresulem was the 'gateway' to the Sinai and the heart of my empire and there was NO way I'd give it up peacefully. I had the city garrisoned with 10+ defensive units and it really makes no sense that I should automatically lose it and have to recapture it. I think a war with a civilization, that just spawned with a swarm of the eras best units, is a fair price to pay for the chance to keep my city. After all, I'm taking a gamble in not giving it up, aren't I? If my military isn't prepared or if I screw up I may lose more then just that one city!

The reason culture flips 'work' in standard Civ 4 is that you have plenty of warning, chances to up your culture, and a counter-strategy of reinforcing your garrison. You have strategic choices to make, ways to influence what happens. Automatically losing your city with no chance to resist or influence things because it gained 1% foreign culture gives you no real choices or input into the process. You can't fix it, you can't fight it, you just have to bend over and let the computer do what it wants.

IMHO any form of automatic city loss is a counterintuitive, frustrating, and arbitrary gameplay mechanic. Give me a feesable way of resisting and protecting my investment in my territory. If the spawning civilization wants my city, let them come and take it.
 
How did you play as France? I gave up on turn three because it elt the same as England did: too weak, so you fall behind without ever getting up.

I was plannin on trying Spain next, Isabella's music really got me going. Now that everyone is mentioning it, my Rome game saw Greece missing too. I put it down to overzealous barbs.
 
Hey, I have a France game, mid-level difficulty, and at start
I managed to get 5 cities:
Paris and then one to the west, to the east, to south-west, and to south -
this latter is on the coast of the Med. Sea... :)

In 1610 I am on par with all nation, except the Arabs, who will probably win
 
Fintilgin said:
May I suggest, at minimum, a theshold for foreign culture flip. Say, 20%? Having 3% Persian culture in Jeruslem shouldn't make it flip to the Arabs. As for the AI, I'm perfectly happy with them automatically seceedeing their cities or whatever. This is a player gameplay issue.

It may be good for simulation purposes, but I really feel that not letting the player have a chance to resist the flip with war is bad gameplay. If the city is going to flip, give the player a pop-up and let them keep the city but be at war with the spawning civilization. Give the spawning civ half a dozen extra attackers and a couple seige units and let us slug it out.

For example, in my case, I probably would have just let the northern city (Tyre?) go as 'not worth the effort' if, say, the Turks had spawned up there or something, but Jeresulem was the 'gateway' to the Sinai and the heart of my empire and there was NO way I'd give it up peacefully. I had the city garrisoned with 10+ defensive units and it really makes no sense that I should automatically lose it and have to recapture it. I think a war with a civilization, that just spawned with a swarm of the eras best units, is a fair price to pay for the chance to keep my city. After all, I'm taking a gamble in not giving it up, aren't I? If my military isn't prepared or if I screw up I may lose more then just that one city!

The reason culture flips 'work' in standard Civ 4 is that you have plenty of warning, chances to up your culture, and a counter-strategy of reinforcing your garrison. You have strategic choices to make, ways to influence what happens. Automatically losing your city with no chance to resist or influence things because it gained 1% foreign culture gives you no real choices or input into the process. You can't fix it, you can't fight it, you just have to bend over and let the computer do what it wants.
Hmm, I have to agree with Fintilgin here. It makes me not want to play civs that might lose core cities to a new civ. We'll see how my India game goes, first, then I think I'll take a crack at Germany or Russia.

SilverKnight
 
Yeah, I had a coupple of games like that V. Soma. If you can withstand Isabella in the start, you are in good shape. But you still have to get 2 cities in the south, and sometimes Isabella got them already...
Just think that France should be on par with Spain for the beginning at least.
 
Aeon221 said:
How did you play as France? I gave up on turn three because it elt the same as England did: too weak, so you fall behind without ever getting up.

Two settlers to the south, and one to "amsterdam" (later on, fill the gap in the west, denmark or/and norway, and if possible a city east of france about the borders of Germany...). Thats a pretty good start, especially if you get the two cities in the south, and all three cities have good cityplacement ( ? ).
Then move most of your army to the south - Germany is often friendly and Rome is often weak.. So concentrate about Spain in the beginning. Just build some walls and spearmen.. and remember to get the stone-resource :)
 
I think it is time to give Greece back the phalanx we took away a few versions ago. The only reason that Rome does not get killed as often is that they have Preats, which are stronger than the barb swords that rush early.

I recall from past games as Spain that I started very weak in both power and score, hoping that mighty Rome didn't decide that vacation homes made sense in my territory.

Although after building infrastructure and research I ended up #2 on the board when I won by diplomatic means without ever fighting a foreign war.
 
surprise!

uploading 0.52B

- Tuned barbarians again
- Added new coastal graphics that should have been in from the beginning – no idea why they were lost
- Minor additions (resources) to the map
- Added Susa
- Changed many city names and expanded city renaming system
- Any human city can flip if discontent OR with no military units OR under occupation OR with foreign culture (threshold 20%) OR all of the following conditions: (enough distant from capital, AND that isn’t a government center, AND the civ has got a decent amount of cities)
- If it can flip, a popup will appear. If player says no, the new civ declares war and it’s reinforced.

- Galleons gift now will happen twice
- Tuned French modifiers
- Culture and Great Persons civ-specific modifiers
- Added Persian cities
 
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