Riots in Grenoble (France) after robber got killed by police

[Tee Kay]

Well, that's certainly a solution.

 

[Lillefix]

Another solution would be to only admit people with a good(nonreligious) education. I suspect they(and their children) are easier integrate.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

The more you give asylum to the animals the more riots you will get later. So no immigrants = no such problems.

immigrants = animals that wasnt too nice

 

[storealex]

Obviously, these people live on the brink of society and just wait for an excuse to show their dissent. I don't cry over a dead robber, but the question is what should France do about these people? Seems like the problem is getting worse.
I would think reintegration the immigrants into society, while being tough on the lost-cause-worst of them, would be an the answer. Carrot and stick. Or bullets and education.

 

[luiz]

Total integration is the only answer. Make the lifes of the immigrants impossible if they don't become more French than the French.

 

[Ayn Rand]

It's just the old case of criminals rioting for the right to commit crimes - it's the mob against civilisation, pure and simple.

 

[Ajidica]

Silly Ayn Rand, its the embodiment of Marxist class struggles. The proletarians will finaly free themselves from the bourgeiosie dicatorship if a violent communist revolution!!!

Anyhow, why is there so much rioting in France? It seems like whenever anything happens there are riots. I don't remember the UK or anywhere else in Europe having riots like this, so is there anything special about France here?

 

[trader/warrior]

This ill hidden racism and hate towards muslim immigrants that is running rampant through europe really worries me.

It just goes to show how bad collective memory is. The poor have always rioted now and then, and now when the poor class has largely been filled by immigrants or second generation, people immediately focus on the muslim part of their identity and ignore all other more reasonable reasons*. Putting the whole issue into an "us vs them" context so that we don't feel bad when we ship thousands of people back to third world countries whith no possetions or possibility to get work.

*Not that the criminal getting shot is a good reason. But things like work availability, living in run-down poor areas, access to good education and recreational activies etc.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Silly Ayn Rand, its the embodiment of Marxist class struggles. The proletarians will finaly free themselves from the bourgeiosie dicatorship if a violent communist revolution!!!

Anyhow, why is there so much rioting in France? It seems like whenever anything happens there are riots. I don't remember the UK or anywhere else in Europe having riots like this, so is there anything special about France here?

The spontaneous upsrising of the masses? Always wondered what that would look like

I guess a lot of the rioting is driven by immigrants, who feel hurt because they feel left out of society. There is also a glorification of the revolutionary tradition in France as well, so it is probably more expected that people get into the streets and communicate their anger to the government. It's not really that big a problem if the odd bit of rioting occurs in a healthy democracy, just so long as it doesn't get out of control.

As for the immigrants, joining their new society is a long, hard march and nobody can give them any short-cuts. They just have to suck it up and keep working their way to freedom and acceptance - that's just the way it works. Those who turn to crime are responsible for the consequences of their own actions - an innocent bystander could have been killed, but I don't suppose they are mature enough to even care about that.

 

[Ajidica]

I understand integration is never easy, but alot of things are working against them, like the whole fear of Muslim extremism. Look at the immegration in America during the gilded age. The immegrants were European and shared a similar cultural heritage as Americans, yet were discriminated against. I'm not very good on french politics, but the Muslim immegrants seem to have an even harder time integrating due to a radicaly different culture and the fears of a 'muslim immegration takeover evil plot armageddon OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!', sort of like that xenophobic video you posted a while ago.

When people are desperate they will do things they rather wouldn't do. When people do things a certain way long enough it becomes a habit. As you pointed out France has a history of the populist uprisings. (It appears they have integrated into that social custom quite well.) Since the muslim immegrants aren't really being listened to anymore, they are engaging in more violent riots to draw attention to themselves. To me it seems the only way to fix the issue is to spend more money on education and jobs, but the recession combined with the general move right over the past decades is creating a 'why throw good money after bad' idea.
Honestly, I don't see a way out of it.

 

[aelf]

The more you give asylum to the animals the more riots you will get later. So no immigrants = no such problems.

Why do all you Baltic and North Sea types have such superiority complexes? Perhaps it's time to call for a jihad against the barbarians.

 

[trader/warrior]

'All these muslim criminals rioting and ruining our society! It was never like this before!'

(examples of higher crimerates and more social unrest in the past)

'But those weren't muslim!'

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

where in the article does it say that the guy was Muslim, all it said was immigrant.

 

[Communisto]

Total integration is the only answer. Make the lifes of the immigrants impossible if they don't become more French than the French.

This is the answer to every immigration question. No joke.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

where in the article does it say that the guy was Muslim, all it said was immigrant.

It can be inferred from the individual's name.

The police fired back, hitting Karim Boudouda, 27, in the head.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I just looked up that last name but I couldnt find any info about it.

 

[Ayn Rand]

I understand integration is never easy, but alot of things are working against them, like the whole fear of Muslim extremism. Look at the immegration in America during the gilded age. The immegrants were European and shared a similar cultural heritage as Americans, yet were discriminated against. I'm not very good on french politics, but the Muslim immegrants seem to have an even harder time integrating due to a radicaly different culture and the fears of a 'muslim immegration takeover evil plot armageddon OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!', sort of like that xenophobic video you posted a while ago.

When people are desperate they will do things they rather wouldn't do. When people do things a certain way long enough it becomes a habit. As you pointed out France has a history of the populist uprisings. (It appears they have integrated into that social custom quite well.) Since the muslim immegrants aren't really being listened to anymore, they are engaging in more violent riots to draw attention to themselves. To me it seems the only way to fix the issue is to spend more money on education and jobs, but the recession combined with the general move right over the past decades is creating a 'why throw good money after bad' idea.
Honestly, I don't see a way out of it.

But how much common ground is there between the immigrants rioting in the streets and the majority of immigrants in France? Won't most immigrants look down on these people as being the dregs of society, just as we look down on white criminals?

The fear of population decline and of some forms of Islam is nothing unusual in a democracy - to be fair, I think Christians, Communists etc all get their fair share of criticism and paranoia. Can you really say that muslims as a group are oppressed in some unusual or exceptional way, or have lost their freedoms? There are mosques all over Europe so it appears they are tolerated, and with tolerance comes the right to crticise.

As you say, the resources are not always available to educate and provide for everybody, but that's tough luck they should look after themselves anyway. And not everybody is going to arrive in France and achieve all their dreams. There will always be groups in society who don't fit in and who use their ethnicity or background as an excuse to commit crimes. France is a dynamic, free country with all the complexities and opportunities that a modern democracy presents to its citizens, I just don't think that muslims or immigrants are discriminated against as a group in any serious or deliberate way - and if they can't take a bit of criticism or hardship then too bad for them for being such babies.

 

[Ajidica]

But how much common ground is there between the immigrants rioting in the streets and the majority of immigrants in France? Won't most immigrants look down on these people as being the dregs of society, just as we look down on white criminals?

That isn't helping, associating them with criminals. When a minority feels they are loosing their way of life they become more extreme in an attempt to maintain it.

The fear of population decline and of some forms of Islam is nothing unusual in a democracy - to be fair, I think Christians, Communists etc all get their fair share of criticism and paranoia. Can you really say that muslims as a group are oppressed in some unusual or exceptional way, or have lost their freedoms? There are mosques all over Europe so it appears they are tolerated, and with tolerance comes the right to crticise.

Criticism yes, but not near flat out racism. France has sort of had a history of 'France for the French'. What France seems to be trying to do is force integration, with the Burqa ban and such. Whenever you oppress something it spreads, simple as that.

As you say, the resources are not always available to educate and provide for everybody, but that's tough luck they should look after themselves anyway. And not everybody is going to arrive in France and achieve all their dreams.

When have I said the resources aren't available?
Just because some groups always will be neglected doesn't mean we should accept it. If people just accepted crappy sanitation was a fact of life, we wouldn't have modern civilization. As Alodus Huxley wrote, "Sanitization is civilization." Universal education has been part of western civilzation since the Enlightenment, from Austria to Scotland.

There will always be groups in society who don't fit in and who use their ethnicity or background as an excuse to commit crimes. France is a dynamic, free country with all the complexities and opportunities that a modern democracy presents to its citizens, I just don't think that muslims or immigrants are discriminated against as a group in any serious or deliberate way - and if they can't take a bit of criticism or hardship then too bad for them for being such babies.

So now they are babies for trying to make their lives better? They are going about it completly the wrong way with the riots, but still. I really don't know what you are getting at.
I disagree with the rioting completly, violence is almost never the answer. But on the other hand France isn't exactly the most welcoming to muslims with their state mandated secularism.

I likely won't be able to respond to your next post as I'll be gone for another week.

 

[Desert-Fox]

Sorry, I have nothing against peaceful people who just live as others and do not cause major problems. But that's the fact that the large immigration as the Western Europe has... is a huge problem. The immigrants act just as barbarians. If they can't adopt the life what Europe has... it is their problem and if they do not like European culture then they are free to go to back their homeland.

Take this as if a visitor comes to you and says that he doesn't like your furniture so you must replace it with something else... and if you do not obey then you are not tolerant and you are xenophobe... I know that this is politically correct to deny these problems but that doesn't change the fact.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

it is their problem and if they do not like European culture then they are free to go to back their homeland.

so they are not allowed to keep their religious book out in their homesand have to use a Bible instead