Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[mungman]

Ok, here's an update on my test with the changes made earlier. (Also forgot to mention in earlier post that I made Hoplites Alarii zero pop. cost)

As of this post it is 146AC and the Roman Empire controls all of Hispania, Gaul up to the Rhine (aside from Magna Graecias holdings on the Med. coast), all of Carthage except for Cartenna and Numidian city on the far west of the map, all of Illyria, Aetolia, Athenae, Libya, Alexandria, and Eburacum (sp?) in Britannia.

So far, I'd say it's gone fairly well. Here's my observations:

1) Germania is still pretty powerful. The pretty much overran Gaul. I had to jump in to keep them from getting all of it then took up to the Rhine from Germania when they attacked me. The war I had with them was fairly easy, but it's difficult to tell if that was from the changes I made or because they exhausted themselves against the Gauls. I haven't heard from them since then, so it's anyones guess. I should also mention that the conquest of Gaul was made around 25-50AC (hard to remember).

2) Culture flipping only happend once with "Great Games" back in the picture. Plus it allowed me to finish conquering Carthage. Hopefully, it won't happen with Aegyptus though since I barely was able to take Alexandria and probably couldn't hold on without some time to reinforce.

3) Greeks are still way tough, but since I only upped the Hoplites to 45 instead of 60 I imagine in the new version they'll be fine.

4) I am lagging way behind in tech. I'm just now researching Flavian & Justinian (one after Age of Augustus?) in 146AC. The reason is that I have to keep my slider at between 9-1-0 to 8-2-0 to keep from losing massive amounts of money every turn. I know corruption is supposed to get out of hand at the end of the Republic, but it might be too much. Personally, I like the way the Praetoriums were before, acting as Provincial Capitals. I realized they were changed due to the obsolesence issue, but currently, they barely dent the corruption and take forever to build. The only way I was able to build them was to pop. rush during Civil War. I think I have an idea of how to keep them as "Provencial Capitals" and have them still go obsolete. Make them work only under certain governments. I don't know if it's possible to flag multiple govs. for them to work under, but say have them only effective under Republic, then when you switch to Principate (or another later govt.) the effects will go away.

5) Notes on Civil War: Did I read that Civitas and Dictator Perpetuus were supposed to be 0 cost? Because they weren't that way in the v.7 I d/led. Also, the Civitas is not limited to Italy, I granted it to every city in my Empire, every time I was in Civil War until the Lex Agraria became obsolete. Also, you can cheat so that you can continue building the civitas even when you leave Civil War. I just switched every city to Civitas, then switched and they kept building in the new government. Don't know what you can do to stop this, but the point might be moot anyway if Civitas is supposed to have zero cost.

6) Because I fell behind in tech, I was never able to benefit froma couple of the wonders. I realize the point in keeping some of them linked to barbarian progression, but others could be independant. Perhaps, make Scipionis obsolete with the Second Punic War and Caesaris obsolete with Augustus. (I realize my suggestion for Caesaris would probably make it worthless, but maybe add a filler tech like Gallic Wars in between?)

And now for some random responses to other things mention.

- I never had the problem going into Civil War before Triumvirate, when I went to build the Lex Agraria it was no problem.

-As for Carthage, the First Punic War is usually fairly easy. Just reinforce Massana and then island hop from Alaria down to Sicily, usually works like a charm. Of course the Second Punic War is much tougher, you must come well prepared. Have about 25-30 units (mix of Legio, Hoplites, Velites, and Ballistae) set aside for Hispania and between 40 and 50 for Africa. Start at the East and work West. Usually after you take Leptis Minor he will send one big wave followed by progressively lesser waves. Wait them out in the city, then when they start to trickle you can begin moving eastward.

 

[King Coltrane]

alright pink, i think i have another (hopefully great, but definately new) idea. for the leadership units, IE scipios army, we could have them produce one unit ever X amount of turns, with that number, X, being the number of turns to the next tech -1. that way you would only get one of these units. on second thought, maybe it should be for 2 techs so that the player will have a chance to build the wonder. I would say beef em up. give em stats of 9/3/1 or even better, 8/2/2 (for the scipio one) + 3 hp, and woker rate of 400 (yup, increased from normal). this way the player would only get one of these units, which is more accurate id say, and would have to plan their invasions around these units... ie more strategy involved. it also represents that this was the man (scipio)'s main force and that carthage will have to deal with this major threat. also, the reason for 8/2/1 +3 is that the consular legio is 8/4/1 +2, so you would only be losing one hp in exchange for +2 defense, which i would say is a good deal.

finally, i know this is the opposite of what you said pink, but im just throwing it out there as something we may want to look into.

WOW... i had a new revelation...well lets call it idea. why dont we make use of the air units thing in the editor? ie, we can rename the airbase, "Encampment" or soemthing and it can be built by barb units, bellatores, etc. and make those units have a range of operation and be able to "raid" (ie bombard) roman cities, units, and countryside. this would allow raiding that could truly not be prevented easily. and perhaps make the custodias urbis, moenia, and things like that act like a SAM site in the normal game, giving cities with those things a better chance of stopping the raids before they can become effective. (ie shoot 'em down) finally, you could give the samnites and revolted peasants this option too, while keeping their hidden nationality. i dunno how this would work, but if it did, you would be faced with a threat constantly troubling your homeland until it was taken care of.

WHEW! ok, im done for now, goodnight!

 

[pinktilapia]

@Coltrane
Very well, I pasted all that in Word and will keep it near me for when I can find the time to put test it. I am currently thinking on another possibility for the barb invasions, which would be very much historical. Did you know that a settler with HN can create a city in enemy territory without declaring war?! I tested it a few minutes ago and it works, at least for the player. Now, I have to see if the AI will settle in Roman territory, if yes, we will have a passive invasion of Germanics forcing Rome to either loose territory (could boost barb culture to make these kini-cities very threathening) or declare war to germania and face hordes of disruptores. Ah - goodnight then!

 

[pinktilapia]

Ok, here's an update on my test with the changes made earlier. (Also forgot to mention in earlier post that I made Hoplites Alarii zero pop. cost)

As of this post it is 146AC and the Roman Empire controls all of Hispania, Gaul up to the Rhine (aside from Magna Graecias holdings on the Med. coast), all of Carthage except for Cartenna and Numidian city on the far west of the map, all of Illyria, Aetolia, Athenae, Libya, Alexandria, and Eburacum (sp?) in Britannia.

So far, I'd say it's gone fairly well. Here's my observations:

1) Germania is still pretty powerful. The pretty much overran Gaul. I had to jump in to keep them from getting all of it then took up to the Rhine from Germania when they attacked me. The war I had with them was fairly easy, but it's difficult to tell if that was from the changes I made or because they exhausted themselves against the Gauls. I haven't heard from them since then, so it's anyones guess. I should also mention that the conquest of Gaul was made around 25-50AC (hard to remember)..

Well, I am thinking about putting them in a locked alliance so that they won't fight each other anymore, except through Praedatores

2) Culture flipping only happend once with "Great Games" back in the picture. Plus it allowed me to finish conquering Carthage. Hopefully, it won't happen with Aegyptus though since I barely was able to take Alexandria and probably couldn't hold on without some time to reinforce.)

Great

4) I am lagging way behind in tech. I'm just now researching Flavian & Justinian (one after Age of Augustus?) in 146AC. The reason is that I have to keep my slider at between 9-1-0 to 8-2-0 to keep from losing massive amounts of money every turn. I know corruption is supposed to get out of hand at the end of the Republic, but it might be too much. Personally, I like the way the Praetoriums were before, acting as Provincial Capitals. I realized they were changed due to the obsolesence issue, but currently, they barely dent the corruption and take forever to build. The only way I was able to build them was to pop. rush during Civil War. I think I have an idea of how to keep them as "Provencial Capitals" and have them still go obsolete. Make them work only under certain governments. I don't know if it's possible to flag multiple govs. for them to work under, but say have them only effective under Republic, then when you switch to Principate (or another later govt.) the effects will go away.

The idea sounds good but I lost my faith in these forbidden palaces ... Can you test if it works? It will be hard to apply as the game is now. Clearly, on the other hand, I will reduce the cost of Praetoriums, Diocese and Theme.

5) Notes on Civil War: Did I read that Civitas and Dictator Perpetuus were supposed to be 0 cost? Because they weren't that way in the v.7 I d/led. Also, the Civitas is not limited to Italy, I granted it to every city in my Empire, every time I was in Civil War until the Lex Agraria became obsolete. Also, you can cheat so that you can continue building the civitas even when you leave Civil War. I just switched every city to Civitas, then switched and they kept building in the new government. Don't know what you can do to stop this, but the point might be moot anyway if Civitas is supposed to have zero cost.

As you said, as long as they are selected as to be build on the city screen, you can complete them even after leaving civil war. Cost now reduced to 0. Otherwise, it is ok to continue giving citizenship through more than one agrarian reform (getting back to civil war before the wonder expire) if you feel it is worth it! In next version, you will be able to build civitas modicum from Sulla's Rule to the end, to give progessively citizenship to some parts of your empire. It will be expensive but will help reducing corruption and war weariness.

6) Because I fell behind in tech, I was never able to benefit froma couple of the wonders. I realize the point in keeping some of them linked to barbarian progression, but others could be independant. Perhaps, make Scipionis obsolete with the Second Punic War and Caesaris obsolete with Augustus. (I realize my suggestion for Caesaris would probably make it worthless, but maybe add a filler tech like Gallic Wars in between?).

Definitively, I will give back control to the player for these leadership wonders, otherwise the good players get it all while the unfortunate ones miss all the good stuff

Looking over the units I've found something that someone else mentioned earlier... Cohortes Imperatorae have the cost 200/200 for the unit producing wonder, but the advance required is Antoines Golden Age and it has the worker actions of a buildable unit... but is immobile... and the Cohortes Praetorinae has the opposite... so I think the wonder producing Praetorinae got mixed with the Player producing Imperatorae... SORRY if you've already recognized this and addressed this... is either suppose to be immobile??).

Randy got it right. You are encouraged to upgrade your Praetorian and Antonines' Legion into these elite units as long as you can spare the cash. It also helps Rome not being unpregnable with 10 preatorians fortified in it!

Are the Praesidium Saxanis suppose to have lost the Foot Unit designation and Draft ability?

Where did these go, I wonder. Fixed. But no more draft since AI government have no draft rate anyway. Only absolutism do.

Carthage will still be able to sign military alliances with Macedonia since Macedonia has the Diplomacy tech.

Ok, Carthage off the diplo list then

 

[gringoesteban]

Hi Pink.

I have been reading this board for a couple weeks but haven't submitted any comments until now. Let me start by saying that RFRE is a superb mod. I congratulate you and everyone else who contributed. Your efforts are really paying off. Little things make the difference - for example, the Legion icons throwing javelins before switching to short swords, the Carthaginians having amphibious attack and landing multiple units at a time on a beachhead, the attention to detail in geography and tribal names, unit names and abilities, etc. Absolutely fantastic.

Based on various posts from 7 March, I updated the v7.0 BIQ prior to starting my game. Below I will list the changes I made. Unless otherwise stated, I think the changes that I describe worked out well and should be made permanent. I also played v6.X and part of a game with an unmodified v7.0 BIQ, and the changes described below make the game better.

* I changed Phalanx/Hoplite to 60 shields.

* I made Bellatores 8/3/1 one pop 30 shied.

* I updated the Legio to "4" defense. I know this is a hot topic, but I still lost a couple Legio while exterminating the Cisalpine Gaul. Therefore, even with 4 defense, I had to pay attention to keep my casualties down. Attacking enemy units ignored the stacked Hoplite Alarrii(?) escort (which also has a 4 defense) and attacked the Legio instead. I suppose since the Legio had more hit points, the computer selected the Legio to be the defensive unit. But it is still preferable for the Legio to have 4 defense rather than 3.

* I made all the government changes you suggested in your detailed post from March 6th where you suggested all the gov't stats. The only exceptions were that (a) I set Monarchy on 0+2/5/5 and (b) if something was X+X/X/0 then I changed the final 0 to a "1" because it seems that a thriving city should be able to support at least one unit. I hear you in regards to big cities getting lazy and corrupt, and in later years of the empire the Romans tended to outsource the fighting to mercenary barbarian auxiliary units, but I still think a big city supporting one unit is reasonable. Other than that, the government traits you suggested seem to be working fine.

* I changed hill mining improvement to +2 shield (the same as regular Civ3) rather than +1. I prefer the +2 because otherwise production can be quite slow. However, in my current game I am only in 206BC, and maybe as I improve the terrain, this will become too potent of a change. Time will tell.

* I eliminated the Slave requirement for Circus Maximus.

* I eliminated the Timber requirement for Scipio Leadership. Also, I took the Scipio Leadership cost down to "8" rather than "10", because in my previous games, most my leadership wonders (including Scipio) tended to expire before I got much use out of them.

That covers my take on many of the comments and suggestions that others already posted. Now onto other thoughts....

* Why is the Straight of Gibraltar closed off by land? Shouldn't there be a passage out to the Atlantic?

* Bovianum seems very difficult to capture -- was that intentional, or am I having a run of bad luck? The city is on a hill and appears to have a wall. My Legio's are being killed while only doing 0 to 1 hit point of damage to the defending Phalanxes. It is a pain to have that enemy city right in the middle of Italy spewing forth barbarian units (forgot the name) every few turns. Things can get tricky if one of those barbarian units wins a combat and spins off a Peltasteae Samnitis. I am forced to keep a strong garrison of Legio's in Rome to protect against these marauders. I went to war with Greek Magia(?) and took all their cities except for one on the Spanish coast and Bovianum. I tried to trade Bovianum for a peace treaty and the AI would not go for it, even though I had stacks of Legio's and Velites next to both cities. So I gave up until I can find some timber to build ballistae, or else upgrade all my Legio's after the Marius tech advance.

* I am going by memory here (I got wrapped up in the game and stopped taking notes), but is there an "AngloSaxon" tribe in Britain? I believe the AngloSaxons migrated to Britain around the 5th century AD. If I am right, then maybe we could change the name of the tribe.

* Do the Gauls have cities/territory in Britain? Although there were several Celtic tribes in Britain, they were not really affiliated with the Gaulish Celts from a tribal allegiance perspective. They had some trade, but they never really had any alliances with each other. Maybe we could make the British Celts a separate and independent tribe rather than being part of the Gauls in France.

* We should prevent resources from randomly disappearing/moving (even though this does not seem to happen very often). There is nothing more frustrating than going through a campaign just to see the resource disappear. Specifically, it happened to the wheat resource in southern Sicily.

* I also suggest turning off volcanos. I know that a volcano destroyed Pompei, but nevertheless, I don't like the pollution (and destruction threat) caused by the volcanos. I have a feeling that most people would reboot a saved game anyway if a volcano did too much damage.

* The Velites unit has a button for the join city action. I am not sure whether the city pop increases by one, but if you hit the button, the Velite disappears. In any event, since the Velites do not cost a pop, then they should not be able to add to city population, either. Speaking of Velites, I think they should have some limited road and fort construction ability since they were basically attached to legions (as skirmishers).

* Should naval units be able to bombard land? I can see having a bombard so that a group of stacked ships can get a free shot at an attacking boat, or at an enemy ship passing by, but way back in the time period this game covers, there weren't any major sea bombardments that I am aware of. When I think bombardment, I recall movies of the US fleet pounding Iwo Jima during WWII, but in Ancient Roman times, I don't believe the ship borne catapults were all that effective.

* Timber and Slaves seem to be difficult resources to get to in the early stages of the game. In my current game, I am in 206BC and have not yet captured either resource. I am at war with Iberia and have captured northern Spain, so the Slave in central Spain is within reach. However, I am still nowhere close to getting a Timber resource.

* The Praetorium seems pretty expensive. Trying to build it in a city with lots of corruption (and therefore only one or two shields of production) is very time consuming. Should we reduce the shield cost?

* I turned off the "preserve random seed" because in the case where I have two veteran or elite legions attacking a third rate barbarian unit on open ground, and both legions die, that does not seem historical. Therefore, I like the ability to reboot from a save with the possibility of a different outcome. Although some may consider that cheating, I only do that in extreme circumstances. I suppose this point is more a matter of personal preference.

That's all I have for now. Again, RFRE is a great game and I appreciate all your efforts.

 

[mungman]

pink,

I'll try and test out the Praetoriums as forbidden palaces, but I'm not very experienced with the editir so it might not work. However, I've got two questions:

1) How did you make 5 of them?
2) What govts. should they work under, Republic and Principate?

Also, I don't think the Gallic-Germanic alliance would be a good idea. This last game is the only one where I noticed the Gauls getting overrun, plus it could be serious bad news having to take them both on in the early stages.

I'm going to keep going with the game I have now to see what happens in the later stages and report on that.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

gringoesteban -

- Good point about the Straight of Gibraltar. I used to think that it was blocked/connected by land so that wonders that provide continental effects can go into Africa and the further East as well, but then I just noticed that all the main landmasses are connected in the East near the Scthian Empire anyways.

- Bovianum has a wonder in it that doubles the city's defense as well. What I normally do is keep a couple Equites in Rome and watch the HN unit's movement, then just kill it with the Cavalry. I wouldn't even bother trying to take Syracusae or Bovianum until you have Consular Legions and some Ballistae to take out the walls of Bovianum.

- There's 2 civs in Britain: the Gallia Celts and the "Britannia" tribe. You'll be able to conquer both of those tribes there up to Pictii (you can't take that city), where you'll be forced to instead concentrate on defending your holdings in Britain. Later, the Britannia civ will start spewing Pictish marauders from Pictii and you'll have a tough time holding on to your land in Britain!

- I too am constantly being annoyed by vital resources like Wheat disappearing early in the game. It screwed me in my current game too.

- Volcanoes are just something that you have to live with.

- Velites have already been changed to be able to build roads.

- You can't really control whether a ship is able to bombard land units or not. I guess you'll just have to pretend that those Catapults and Ballistae on ships had a really long range and there were some really good aimers.

- You can get the Fine Timber resource pretty easily from conquering the Illyrian's capitol. Slaves you can get from either conquering Macedonia OR Carthaginian Spain. Carthaginian Spain is probably your best bet, since Carthago Nova makes an awesome city to invade mainland Carthage from.

- I hate it when the AI cheats in battles like that. That's why I loved having slingers/archers to weaken the units before I went into battle. But now since they require support, I find that I'm just making other Legions in their place. (BTW, what happened to the Slinger-spawning wonder in Palma, pink?) And don't feel too bad about using the save-load cheat. The computer cheats so much (other than the advantages they get for difficulty level) you wouldn't believe it. It uses the "random battle calculator" to win ridiculous victories (yet doesn't let you enjoy any ridiculous victories); auto-rushes units in cities that are about to fall to a human player (no matter if they have 0 gold, the city doesn't have enough pop. to create the unit, and even if the city is in resistance!); and they constantly know the location of every other civ's units and cities all over the map. A little save-loading is nothing compared to what the AI does.


King Coltrane -

- Not really sure what you're getting at with the leader unit Legions thing there. AFAIK, an army unit gets the stats from the unit(s) that join the army, and only adds its HP bonus to the unit's HP.

- Nice thinking with using the air raiding thing. That would be interesting, but I don't really see much of a point in it other than just annoying the Roman player. I mean, if the bombing could destroy improvements, then it would just create a couple few cities along the German-Roman border that never have any improvements in them. If not, then it would just damage a few units every turn and not really do anything major since the AI rarely concentrates their bombing runs. Don't mean to shoot down your idea (no pun intended), but I really think that the current early HN units that the barbs make is enough of an annoyance.


Concening Gallia fighting Germania: Using a program to reveal the map to me every once and a while (to see what's going on around the world and if everything's working right), I've noticed that Germania and Gallia don't really go to war (or at least, they normally don't). Gallia lost cities to Germania probably because of the hordes of those early HN raider units attacking them. I was really surprised to see how many of those things that Germania always had, and that the few they sent my way every couple turns was nothing compared to what Gallia was facing! So basically, Gallia and Germania are constantly fighting along the German-Gallic border with HN units. I'm just guessing that Gallia lost its momentum and Germania's HN units overran some parts of Gallia. I wouldn't really worry about it, since the Roman player can always conquer those parts back in later campaigns against the barbarians!

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Some more random bugs/thoughts :

Also, it seems like the barbarians can build Civilized Buildings tech improvements since the latest patch. Is this just something I screwed up in my modifications, or is anyone else experiencing this?

And I just noticed, Praesidium don't cost pop. any more. Intended?

The early Praedatores need to have a pop. cost added to them. With their very low cost and great stats, Germania just keep pumping them out like crazy. This IS the reason that Germania is overrunning Gallia early in the game, as well as some other nations like Illyria. Maybe increase the cost of the Praedatores as well. 20 shields is just way too little. Decreasing the attack down to 8 would probably be a good idea too. Also, why not lower the military support for Tribal Council and put Warmongering back in the game? Warmongering can have a slightly increased military support (something like how Tribal Council is now) and Communal or Minimal corruption.

The Equites Praedatores (the barbarian mounted unit) keeps pillaging the roads around Petra in the desert, destroying vital links to the resources that are out in the desert. Since you can't re-build roads in the desert, it's pretty important that those roads in the desert don't get destroyed by silly barbarians. Maybe remove the Pillage ability from these horsemen?

Legio Antonis (Egyptian Legions) can be built now. Aren't they only supposed to be created from the wonder?

All of the barbarian nations are 1 tech behind everyone. Why, you ask? Because they researched Civilized Buildings (because they can!). That needs fixing. Also, why doesn't Rome just start with Naval Warfare? They get it on the second turn from their Great Library-type building anyways. Some other AI nations are behind because they spent 12 or more turns researching other techs such as Ancient Wonders. Better look into this.

Speaking of technologies, I really don't think the forced 5/5/0 tax/science/luxury setting is going to work, especially when the Roman Empire starts becoming a superpower (Age of Augustus and beyond). At 5/5/0, it probably won't matter how much the tech costs (well, unless it's extremely high like 1000 ), the Roman player is going to be researching the techs at at the min. tech rate. Heck, with a min. tech rate of 12, I'm getting a tech every 12 turns with my setting at 8/2/0. Too bad you can't set a min/max tech rate for every individual tech! :/

Did you say at one time that the Romans can create more Servi if they need them? If so, they currently can't be created. Also, why can't enemy nation's Servi be captured? They just get killed. Did you intend for this to happen?

The old Roman Praesidium upgrades to the new Praesidium that come with the Jul-Claud Dynasties tech. Then the new Praesidium upgrade directly to the Milites Alarii that come with the same tech! Intended?

Before running into it, a problem I just thought of with making the later barbarian units invisible is that they won't be visible until they get right by (or within 2 units of for an Army because of their radar) the Roman units! Hmm, will that be a problem or be a good thing (realistic-wise)?

Persia can create that improvement/wonder that generates the Elephanti Loricati every x amount of turns. Since I've never seen them make it before, did you intend for them to be able to do this?

There's a lot of cities in the East that were destroyed in early wars between the AI (Melitene, Edessa, Thapsacus). I haven't a clue why the AI can be so destructive sometimes; it seems it even destroyed a city that had 100 culture from the start (Thapscus). I wish you could remove the ability to destroy cities.

In my current game, it seems that Germania and Scythia can't see their Barbarian Goods resources or something. Or maybe they just won't trade them with me? Either way, there needs to be some way for the Roman player to conquer a Barbarian city/civ somewhere so they can control a Barbarian Goods resource to make the Barbarian troops that come with the Severan Dynasty.

Nabatea needs a little boost. It's pretty pathetic! It's constantly being overrun by the Equites Praedatores and takes forever to build even a Camelite. Maybe add some roads, mines, and/or farmland as well as some food-increasing resources around the place so that it can, at the very least, fight off the desert nomads?

Apparently "Annus Quartorum Imperatorum" disappears once you leave Civil War. Though you can quickly build it then start on the Colosseum before you leave Civil War (and thus avoid this problem), people ignorant of this problem won't be able to build the Colosseum until they go into a long Civil War again. Either you can mention that the player needs to begin the Colosseum before leaving Civil War (after building Annus etc., of course) or just make Annus etc. not require Civil War.

 

[jobiwan7]

I'll try and test out the Praetoriums as forbidden palaces, but I'm not very experienced with the editir so it might not work. However, I've got two questions:

1) How did you make 5 of them?
2) What govts. should they work under, Republic and Principate?

Having them only work under those governments would solve the "never going obsolete problem." You could make them "forbidden palace" wonders again (they have better effects than "courthouse-style" improvements), but only allow them under certain governments.

 

[jobiwan7]

Before running into it, a problem I just thought of with making the later barbarian units invisible is that they won't be visible until they get right by (or within 2 units of for an Army because of their radar) the Roman units! Hmm, will that be a problem or be a good thing (realistic-wise)?

I can see it as being realistic: the barbarians are experts at hiding in the wilderness until sighted by Roman Scouts ahead of the main army (2 tiles away). Would that be a decent explanation?

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

I'd say so! Tough times are ahead for me (as if the hordes of overly-powerful HN Praedatores haven't been enough!).

 

[pinktilapia]

Hi gringoesteban,

Thanks for your comments, which nicely sum up last week discussion. Most of what you reported is likely to be in next patch I just take up some of your points:

* legio are going to be an A6 (3), D4, +2HP (yes!) and 250 worker rate. To balance the fact they really become good, they will cost 50 shields and 2 pop. I hope this can give them an edge on early protagonists, while other units remain interesting and cheap.
* metro maintaining 1 unit or not is surely logical two ways but I wish to reduce late Rome free upkeep as much as possible. Since this doesn't affect the Republic (which doesn't have any metropolis), it is a good way to do so.

* Mining was supposed to be two since sometime now. I mess this up.

* The Straight of Gibraltar is closed both by land and by sea for gameplay reason. If open for boats, Carthage (and others later on) did wander in the Atlantic and most of the fleets were lost far from fighting areas forever. Carthage's strenght just got diluted. With Gibraltar closed and the desert impassable, it is now only looking at you, the Roman

* Bovianum is very difficult to capture and it is intentional, the Samnites were a serious threat to Rome until finally assimilated in the late Republic.

* "AngloSaxon" tribe in Britain? Hu? No, they are in present day Netherlands and Danmark. Hopefully, they will be build sailboats and get to Britain in due time.

* Do the Gauls have cities/territory in Britain? Well yes they do, mostly for gameplay reason (if only one faction, the AI would build troops until the island is unpregnable). I also believe some Gaul tribes (including Belgii ) did imigrate into Britain, so historically, it is not that bad.

* Resources randomly moving seem to be an issue, I might remove this. What I wanted is to represent things like Sicily loosing its fertility (wheat), and the need for the Roman to prospect ahead for new resources.

* Volcanoes are frustrating, but I wanna keep them. If you don't turn off random seed, you can't replay an eruption with a different outcome I think, so no cheating allowed.

* Naval units be able indeed bombard land - this is the only way to simulate port blockade and naval siege of harbors. Note that only quinquiremes and dromones are really efficient at land bombardement, and can destroy land units.

* Unless we work out a solution with Praetorium linked to a government, I am thinking to allow a wonder that place a praetorium/diocese in every city rather than having the player to build them one by one. Theme are likely to be a forbidden palace in next version since they never go obsolete anyway. I also think about giving a specialized citizen to fight corruption to Rome early on (called Censor?) and remove the 'administrator' from the Justinian period.

 

[pinktilapia]

@ Randy

* I love Pictii too, a pity they won't be invisible to the Romans anymore
* Should we turn off resource's random element?
* Are archers not good enough? I tried, since they have to be maintained and thus will be in limited number, to make them effective. Do they need some more boost?
* I have changed the Praedatore costs
* Noted all the long list of bugs/problems thanks!
* The Rep. Praesidium never did cost pop, the Imp. one still cost 1.
* Legio Antonis can now be built, it is intended.
* For the Roman Techs, I wish to know how much to increase the cost of later advances so that the min # turns is not (always) the main factor determining research lenght. Waht about going for a max. rate of 60% rather than 50% in order to let the players some freedom with taxes/research.
* Barb inv until close, great !
* Persia (Pathia/Sassanides) indeed now have access to elephants, following a recent reading of Roman-Persian wars
* When I playtested the concept, I could trade with barbarians the barb. goods. The point is barb. now have access to road (altough they can't build them) and palace in RFRE and things act like airports for resources. You nonetheless have to wait the barb to build a thing in Rhugii before he can secure two sources of these resources and thus become able to trade them. Let me know if you can get this working, otherwise I will look into it again. Scythia should also have access to 2 barb. goods once it has build a thing in eastern Ostrogothii.
* Have given the wonder Petra the capacity to generate camelites once every 5 turns and removed the pillage option from the true barbarians (but is this a good thing?)

What about a patch for next Monday ?

 

[pinktilapia]

pink,

I'll try and test out the Praetoriums as forbidden palaces, but I'm not very experienced with the editir so it might not work. However, I've got two questions:

1) How did you make 5 of them?.

These were 5 separate but identical wonders. In version 0.7, they have been removed for one single improvement tough...

2) What govts. should they work under, Republic and Principate?.

That's the main problem, the mod is currently not developed to accomodate that idea. I will be thinking on it over the weekend. In short, you would need a new form of government by 200AC, with serious incentive to motivate the player to switch to it and get himself into serious corruption mess

pink,
Also, I don't think the Gallic-Germanic alliance would be a good idea. This last game is the only one where I noticed the Gauls getting overrun, plus it could be serious bad news having to take them both on in the early stages.

Locked alliance would just mean they won't declare war to each other, but as put by Randy, if most of the 'war' is through Praedatores, it would be ineffective anyway.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I think 2 pop. cost for Legion is great and Hoplite Alarii and Presaedum can stay as they are for .7.... don't know if the Legion necessarily needs +2HP... 1 HP too much can change things dramatically... I have been finding (3) bombard effective in keeping the Legios from dying so easy... I did +1 HP on Scipio, Caesar and Antonius because they seem to die far too easily... I give all the Legios 350 worker strength though...

I think the Western Greeks don't need any adjusting... I've been defeating them with a mass rush after/beginning of the First Punic War to get Syracuse and Bovium-whateveritscalled... Since they don't have time to mass up troops its just a little costly... I also think that Bellatores should still have 10 attack... just 3 defense and 30 cost...

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I would love to see a simulation of a Germanic (Anglish, Saxon, Jutish, Friesian, Frankish, and btw they were coastal from Belgium to Denmark until First Century AD) invasion of Britain... don't see how its possible in the near future, though... maybe part of a later scenario...
Pink you are definitely correct... The Gauls immigrated between pretty consistently between the mainland and islands...
Forgot to mention- it makes sense that the player needs the Gaul Goods from Massilia before the building/ invasion of Caesar... but if you have Gaul Goods in Spain (and so already have it from Carthage's holdings) it seems kind of wierd... I'd really prefer the player need it from Massilia...

 

[mungman]

Well I see you also mentioned the wonder option for the Praetoriums, maybe that might be better, since 5 capitals might decrease corruption a little too much.

Locked alliance would just mean they won't declare war to each other, but as put by Randy, if most of the 'war' is through Praedatores, it would be ineffective anyway.

It also makes the other declare war on you if you go to war with the other. Every time Germania would attack me Scythia would declare war on me when I counterattack.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

@ Randy

* I love Pictii too, a pity they won't be invisible to the Romans anymore
* Should we turn off resource's random element?
* Are archers not good enough? I tried, since they have to be maintained and thus will be in limited number, to make them effective. Do they need some more boost?
* I have changed the Praedatore costs
* Noted all the long list of bugs/problems thanks!
* The Rep. Praesidium never did cost pop, the Imp. one still cost 1.
* Legio Antonis can now be built, it is intended.
* For the Roman Techs, I wish to know how much to increase the cost of later advances so that the min # turns is not (always) the main factor determining research lenght. Waht about going for a max. rate of 60% rather than 50% in order to let the players some freedom with taxes/research.
* Barb inv until close, great !
* Persia (Pathia/Sassanides) indeed now have access to elephants, following a recent reading of Roman-Persian wars
* When I playtested the concept, I could trade with barbarians the barb. goods. The point is barb. now have access to road (altough they can't build them) and palace in RFRE and things act like airports for resources. You nonetheless have to wait the barb to build a thing in Rhugii before he can secure two sources of these resources and thus become able to trade them. Let me know if you can get this working, otherwise I will look into it again. Scythia should also have access to 2 barb. goods once it has build a thing in eastern Ostrogothii.
* Have given the wonder Petra the capacity to generate camelites once every 5 turns and removed the pillage option from the true barbarians (but is this a good thing?)

What about a patch for next Monday ?

- Not sure what to do about the resources disappearing thing. It's nice in a realistic sense for the resources to run out and you have to find new sources, but it also gets really annoying when you lose important resources like Wheat or Fine Timber really early on. Maybe just lower the disappearance rates a little bit (and that means increase the # in the editor, don't do the dumb thing I did and lower Fine Timber, Ore, and Wheat down to 50 and have them all disappear within the first 100 turns ).

- As I said, I just find myself making more Legions and Velites over the archers and ballistae/catapults. I used to keep all the slingers that spawned from that wonder that spawned them in Palma. I miss that wonder! They are pretty expensive to build as well.

- I could've sworn that the Rep. Praesidium always cost a pop. to create! Either way, less units costing pop. to create is a plus for the Romans!

- I think that even if you set the tech costs at 1000, the Roman Empire at its climax can still research them in 10 or so turns! With my Empire stretching from N. Britain to Palmyra in the Middle East @ 90 AD, I produce a little over 100 science beakers per turn with my settings at 10% science/80% tax/10% luxury. Basically, once you get to the apex of Roman power, only the min. tech rate can really limit how fast or slow they go through the techs.

- The problem I'm experiencing with the Barbarian Goods is like the Barbarian Goods resource is only a bonus resource and not a Luxury. That's weird tho, since I haven't touched the .biq since I started the game, and the .biq says that the Barbarian Goods are a Luxury resource. I'm really confused. Looks like I'm going another game without Barbarian Goods.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

And to add in, are you REALLY sure that you want to allow Plagues to happen in the game? What happens when the Plague starts is that, slowly, pretty much every city around the world starts to get hit by the Plague. Did a huge plague like this really happen around this time period? I know that there was a large plague much later in time in Europe (Bubonic plague), but did a plague of that scale really happen in the Roman Empire? If not, then shouldn't the disease that grassland causes be enough to represent the outbreaks of disease & etc. in cities?

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Rome itself was hit by quite a few plagues ( not THE plague) ... I can't remember any specifics... but also plagues were regularly a product of metropolis life... all of history is recently studied now with disease explaining many major factors/events...
indeed it could be said that Attila wasn't stopped outside of Rome by the Pope but by the fact that his army had plague... the barbarian/nomadic peoples often did not have the immunities to fend off some of the diseases contracted by contact with the city-goers... the TRUE DEFENSE against barbarians