Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[pinktilapia]

lol, so plague or no plague

About Coltrane's idea: my guess is that he speaks about ignoring the army but instead having a unit similar to Barca, Mithridates, etc... but generated at very slow rate. Having only 1 generated before the wonder go obsolete is going to be hard to set up anyway.

@Randy
For the resource, I have remove their dissapearance for next version. Even a slow rate would still bring some early game to unfairly abort I guess.

Ok, here my last attempt for the ranged troops (that missing wonder in the Baleares will be back---I never touched the city but it seems it's gone altogether ):

Funditores: from A2(2x3)-D2-M1 to A2(3x3)-D2-M1
Sagittarri Aux. from A3(2x5)-D3-M1 to A3(3x5)-D3-M1
Ballista: from A0(8x1)-D0-M1 to A0(6x2)-D0-M1
Catapulta: A0(10x2)-D0-M1 unchanged
All prices unchanged, all need support.

So much for trying to tune the tech costs... I really have to play by myself to that stage. Some testers are lagging behind and with outrageous corruption, while your Empire rocks! I guess for the best players, the min #turns per tech will be the safeguard... Still hope that by boosting the cost of the advances, we could get that working somewhat better.

I will test again about that barb goods issue.

@Blitz, the barb get boats late in the game. There is little scope the AI will manage, but it has what it needs for an invasion of Britain by the neaby Germanic tribes

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Oh, corruption in my Empire is HUGE! But since I have so many cities and I normally buy/rush the Praetoriums with my extra gold. A few gold & science points from each city really adds up when it comes from over 100 cities!

And I'd say do away with the Plague. It's really just a small annoyance to me (have to pull out/replace the lost defenders of the affected cities until the Plague goes away). But whatever!

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I can do without plague =o)

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Eh, pink, I'm just wondering why you decided to add the HP bonus to the early Legions? And does that mean that the later Legions get that HP bonus as well?

Since you're upping the HP on the Roman Legions, are you also going to up the HP and pop. cost on the Legio Antonis for Egypt as well? The Exercitus Mithridates will also need an extra HP bonus so that it will have its slight advantage over the Roman Legions still (since they're rarely very numerous).

Once again, I'm finding that I go thru the 2nd cent. AD much too fast (tech-wise). I think it's just because there's just 3 techs (Antonine's Golden Age, Philosopher on the Throne, Folley of Commodus) representing a period of around 100 years. If you add 1 more tech somewhere in between (or better, before Antonine's Golden Age), then things should flow well. Also adding a tech somewhere between Triumvirate and Age of Augustus could actually make the player go in to the Triumvirate Republic (possibly) for a short while (12 turns, or 24 years) while they research Age of Augustus. That would also help slow the Roman player down tech-wise so they don't get too far ahead. I think both techs would help. This is all using my 12 turn min. tech rate idea, tho, of course. If you decide to go along with my 12 turn min. tech rate idea, it may be a good idea to mention to the player that it would be to their advantage to try and keep their tech research going as close to 12 turns a tech as they can.

Consider editing the city names list (for creation of cities via settlers) for the Germanic tribes. They were creating cities like Berlin and Leipzig.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

And now, for those of you interested: here's a savegame of mine from 150 AD, in a time period that you can consider the peak of Roman power. It's from the latest patch (0.7) with a few changes (for the better if you ask me! ). The Empire's going through a fairly boring era right now (for me ) -- just Empire building and securing its borders. There's a large Roman army in the Middle East if you want to go to war with the Persians and there should be enough troops along the Roman-German/Scythian borders to wage wars against them as well. There's tons of gold for you to spend on whatever you need and I really doubt that there's any civ in the game that's a threat to the Roman Empire right now. Enjoy it while it lasts!

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

- I missed it in my game, but don't forget that Constitutio Antonioniana's price needs to be reduced to 0 as well.

- Constitutio Antioniana and Lex Agraria's image seems to be too large. It goes outside of the border when you complete the wonders.

- There definitely needs to be a special resource added at Pictii that appears with the 156-206 AC tech. Just place a couple on the hills near the city and name it Pictish Goods or something (doesn't matter, player will never see it). Basically, you can make the resource increase the amount of food and shields that the tile produces by, say, 4 each or something. Maybe add 4 commerce as well to help it out. Without the aid of a resource like that to give the Pictish tribes a boost in Scotland, I don't see them posing much of a challenge to my defenses any time soon (@ 268 AD).

 

[gringoesteban]

My vote would be to get rid of the Plague. As IXIRandyIXI pointed out, cities are already hit with "disease" and lose population through that phenomenon. The Plague is simply an annoyance that disrupts game play -- one must manually move garrison units out of impacted cities and place them in the tile next to the city or else the Plague might randomly kill a few units. It doesn't add much value or change the balance of power, but it does cause a distraction and slow game play.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

And it makes the AI's cities really easy to conquer (the ones that are hit with Plague, at least!).

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I like the new unit changes... I think most or all early Roman units should have an even Bombard (3) including Scipio- it makes attacks more balanced. I also think the Rate of Fire 2 for the Ballita makes a definite difference in the effectiveness of Ballista, regardless of Bombard (so 6 is good)
I think all of the Roman Armies should get the +1 HP instead of the Legio for balance, but I'm thinking the Barcae should get +1 HP to counter Scipio, besides represent Hannibal and his early threat. I already added +8 to Mithradates and Attila as suggested for Armylike sizes to the barbarians (although haven't progressed far enough before restarting to see how evil it will be ;o)
Also, the new Govts you suggested, Pink, have been working very well for me my last game and I like the nice represention of the wasteful Metropolitan lifestyle, besides balance issues. I have Monarchy 2/5/5 though.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Randy has made up my mind. Randomly weakened cities are not as cool as strong cities and easier to balance...

 

[mungman]

One thing I've noticed, I'm unable to upgrade any of my units.

Also, I now believe it would be best to have the wonders go obsolete with techs the human player discovers instead of at a certain time. Itkinda sucked not being able to do the whole Crucifiction and Bible thing all because I conquered Jerusalem 200 years after it really occured.

I don't think gameplay should be taylored around something a cheater would do (not research advanced techs to stop the bad stuff). In my opinion, someone who would do that might as well not even play the mod since it totally destoys its purpose. Meanwhile others who might not be so fortunate as to conquer at the rate of actual Rome, are forced to miss out on much of what makes this such a great mod.

Besides, the Barbarians will still be getting all of their goodies at the appointed time, so they'll end up being even more of a challenge to those who are behind.

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Oh, PLEASE don't give Monarchies more support than they already have in 0.7!

My argument against giving Monarchies MORE support:

In this SS, I'm showing you the main Persian invasion force. Covered by that popup is 2 more stacks of 10+ horse archers, and only partially covered is yet another stack of 10 or so horse archers. Then there's their slow elephant riders that are making their way over, and let's not forget the stack of horse archers that they have up where Pontus used to be attacking north! Monarchies have plenty of support!

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Randy, You've convinved me again- I hate impossible masses, but what else can we do to make it still challenging until the End? Rome DID have to NOT remain in Mesopotamia... Mayber Stronger units later on and less support?

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Randy, You've convinved me again- I hate impossible masses, but what else can we do to make it still challenging until the End? Rome DID have to NOT remain in Mesopotamia... Mayber Stronger units later on and less support?

Well, thing is, that wasn't an impossible mass! I had a fairly large army stationed near Antiocha (as I think you will see if you look at my .sav). With some tactical maneuvering and incredible luck (and a lot of money spent on rushing soldiers), I managed to grind that horde to a stop and then went on a land grab from the Persians! It was fun to say the least...but still, I'd certainly say that Monarchies don't need more support.

 

[pinktilapia]

@Randy

Great that you could post that save. It will help a lot. First, looking at your game, I tought, geee, I have the redesign the whole thing - then I saw, it's the Golden Age ! Based on your save, a conlusion comes to me nonetheless. I will reduce corruption (moving the slider from 80% to a tentative 50%): it is really ridiculously high. On the other hand, I really think a 1 shield bonus for mining would be enough. If early production is too slow, we can always reduce the cost of legio and other troops. I hear you for the tech, but I feel so lazy to revise these trees once more; just hear what I have to say for my defense:

- Triumvirate Republic will already last a bit longer next patch. Once the player has switch to that government, he still has to spend the time to build dicator which cost has been set on 300 shields (15 turns in Rome?).
- The golden age period under the Antonines is not only the tech you underlined. As you could see on the list of posted some time ago:

For the period 14AC-180AC

Commerce 10t
Grand Architecture 15t
Antonine Golden Age 16t (by 96AC)
Siege Engineering 12t
Water Milling 10t
The Philosopher on the Throne 10t (by 160AC)
Folly of Commodus 10t (by 180AC)

Now, I think the whole list of tech is currently fine (altough Gallic War is a good idea for an add). The costs must be revised based on the number of cities Rome is likely to have by that time.

E.g.
First Punic War - 15t - 10 cities - 3 beakers per city --> Cost 15x10x3=450 (in editor 45)
Antonine Golden Age - 16t - 125 cities - 3 beakers per city --> Cost 16x125x3=6000 (in editor 600)

Min tech research would be 8, maximum 25t.

 

[pinktilapia]

The plague is now off by popular demand.
I love to see that Parthia (actually, the Sassanids, since I can see some Clibanarii there) is again in top form. Hopefully, in next version, the Roman should be slighly (very much) less rich and the Persian could actually win the war They deserve to.

Mungman, I have already made some wonders no longer obsolete by a timer tech (leadership ones, plus the crucifixation as you reported). Any other, please remind me so that you are sure this is changed in next version! I agree there is no point having the good players having an easy game while the players less lucky are missing all the advantages.

I have boosted HP to many units in order to keep them effective compared to the legion lines, which now has a +2HP all along (armies have a 3HP bonus, I would love to have them at 4HP but I wonder if any player would then upgrade them later to a 'normal' legio?)

Pictii raiders now just cost 10 shields (and 1 pop)! Do we need to add resources if we can just even more decrease their cost?

Constitution is already 0 cost in my current version, I guess I changed that after 0.7...
I will check out the wonder splashes.

I will also be thinking on a way to make the barb cities much stronger in defense by the time of the roman apogee, in order to avoid warmongering players to conquer the barb before they can get their real good advances

For info, here is what I have for next patch concerning the barb, feedback would be great:

Crisis of the Third Century (IIIthAC) 206AC-obsolete 256AC (25t)

Migratio Magna --> Place a Migratio Barbarii in each city
Migratio Barbarii --> Spawn a Disruptores every 3turns [A10(10) D4 M1+4HP; HN; INV] & 10 culture/t

These would produce 7 waves of of about 15 disruptores, and if the player (or the Germanic) enter into real war, whatever Huscarl massed in Germania.

Barbarian cities build:
Huscarl [A12(6) D5 M1+1HP; 30shields & 1pop]
Equites Disruptores [A12(6) D4 M2-1HP; 30shields & 1pop]

Great Invasions (VthAC+) 406AC-600AC
Incursio Magna --> Place a Incursio Barbarii in each city and spawn a Equites Loricati every 4turns [A14(7) D5 M2 +0HP; start GA]
Incursio Barbarii --> Spawn a Incursores every 5turns [A12(12) D5 M1+6HP; HN; INV] & 10 culture/t

Barbarian cities build:
Huscarl [A12(6) D5 M1+1HP; 30shields & 1pop]
Equites Loricati [A14(7) D5 M2 +0HP; 30shields & 1pop; start GA]

These would produce 20 waves of of about 15+ incursores, the actual number of unit generated per wave would actually be growing as roman cities fall! The perfect effect of the crumbling of the Empire. Sad AI settlers with HN don't settle in Roman territory... If real war occurs between Rome and Germania, packed Equites Loricati and Huscarl will also swarm the Romans. Question is:does these units have enough punch to break through fortified legions in limes behind rivers....

That's all!

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

Question is:does these units have enough punch to break through fortified legions in limes behind rivers....

That's the problem I'm having so far. The AI is dumb when is uses its high-movement units (just tries to slip them past my fortifications and hit the cities, but always ends up plopping them in a nice position for me to take them out). The 1-movement units just plain don't have enough mobility to break through the fortifications that you saw I was building along the Roman-German borders in my .sav. All the 1-movement units do is slowly make their way up near my limes and then just get obliterated. The only way I can see the 1-movement units breaking through my limes is if they suddenly came in one large mass (like the Persians did there). I'm not going to make any conclusions so far, however. I'm still in the 3rd century.

Also consider putting Marshes under ALL Germanian and Scythian cities except a few Germanian cities along the Germanic-Gallic border (so that the Roman player can successfully invade Germania if they so choose to do so). This will just make sure that the Germanian and Scythian players send all their HN invisible units towards the Roman player and not bother going for each other's cities.



And you're right about that Persian war, there! If the Principate would've been like it's going to be in the future patch, I either would've had a MUCH smaller army stationed near Antiocha and be pretty rich, OR I would've been pretty poor but had that army stationed near Antiocha. Not both.

I like those ideas about the new barbarian invasion wonders and changes. Should be interesting! Just remember to make the wonders fairly cheap for the barbarians since their cities are constantly small and don't have much production.

Further reducing the price for the Pictish raiders may help the Picts in Scotland. The problem I'm seeing with them is not that it takes a long time to create the unit, but that they're constantly being held back by population growth. It takes them a while to make more babies.

As for armies upgrading to normal units: I tested it, and it does work properly. However, I rarely, if ever, do it. Legion armies are much more useful than having an extra normal unit (due to their radar, extra hp, movement). Perhaps a better idea would be to have the older Legion armies upgrade to the newer Legion armies (like Scipionis to Caesaris). This would require that you make them build-able, of course, but they can cost 100 population and can't join cities. (Also note: once you upgrade a Legion army, the army unit is upgraded. All units inside the army unit are simply dropped from the army and placed under your control once again.)

Before we run into the problem: the Milites Alarii from the Severan Dynasty tech upgrade directly to the Equites Alarii from the same tech. Better get rid of that. While on upgrading units, try and make sure all the older barbarian units upgrade to the newer ones (like the early Praedatores upgrading to, say, Disruptores). Just to make sure the AI doesn't make any old barbarian units once their time has come to rise!

Don't fear adding more techs if it's just getting their positioning on the tech advisor screen that you're worried about. Just clear the map and generate a new, tiny map with all bonus grassland tiles. Add a city for rome then a city for any other civ. Save it as a separate file. Then just mess around with the tech positioning all you want; it'll take but a few seconds to load the scenario up each time. Then all you need to do is note those new positions for the techs and put them into the full .biq with the map, and you're set!

 

[gringoesteban]

What is the ultimate goal (victory condition) for RFRE? Is it simply to survive through the end of the game? If I hit F8, I can see some victory points, but my score is quite low even after 100+ turns of play, so I don't see any way to reach 50,000 points. I don't think a "conquest" victory would be possible if some barbarian cities are on impassible marshes and the Romans cannot conquer the city in Scotland that spawn the Picti. I find myself expanding and eliminating AI players, but sort of without purpose. Given all the discussion about swarms of barbarians in later ages (I haven't gotten that far yet), I assume that the Empire is expected to reach a peak size then shrink over time after the inevitable loss of territory to the barbarian hordes. Should there be a victory locations, say perhaps in Constantinople/Byzantium, which must be held continuously from X-Y date? Or does the mod already have an ultimate "goal" that I missed?

 

[IXIRandyIXI]

The ultimate goal is to hold on to Roma and keep control of at least 1 resource of Gaul Goods, Barbarian Goods, Egyptian Goods, and Oriental goods. These goods allow you to build "Byzantine Empire" parts (spaceship parts) that will allow you to win a "Byzantine Empire" (spaceship) victory. If you fail to do that, then you just have to hold out and keep the highest score until 600 AD and the game ends. It's still being worked on tho.

While on that subject, I think the spaceship parts should be split up differently. I think they should rather require parts of the Empire that the Byzantine Empire still held around 600 AD: Northern Africa (require Carthago resource), Egypt (require Alexandria resource), parts of the Middle East (maybe add special resources for Antiocha and, oh, Sinope?), and, of course, Constantinople (require Byzantium resource)! Don't worry about cluttering up the resource screen for the Roman player. I don't even think anyone pays attention to that (or at least I don't).

 

[jobiwan7]

Another victory condition you could consider is the Domination Victory. Make it so that you must control nearly all of the cities or population.