"Rise of Asia" take 3 - "The Conquest Dynasties"

[The Last Conformist]

Uighur Khanate: Leader: Chief Quttugh Bilga Kol Qaghan (Bilga Kol for short?)

"Qaghan" looks suspiciously like a variant of the title "Khagan", traditionally westernized as Great Khan.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Non-playable civs will not have a UU. As I said before, only the main playable civs will be flavored for the purposes of simplicity. Additions can come later. We don't even have a working alpha yet so it's best not to get too ambitious.

For religions, as there will be flavored tech trees, civs of particular culture groups can research certain religions that will give them certain structures.

Plagues are a definite yes. The Black Plague also ravaged East Asia.

"Qaghan" looks suspiciously like a variant of the title "Khagan", traditionally westernized as Great Khan.

That's what I thought also. Perhaps it is "Khagan" with simply a different spelling?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Variant spellings of that title are legion; Wikipedia lists these: "Chagan, Qaqan, Khakhan, Khaghan, Kagan, Khaqan, Hakan etc".

Even more suggestively, the Wiki article on the Uighur Empire uses the spellings "Qaghan" and "Qaghanate".

 

[7ronin]

Non-playable civs will not have a UU. As I said before, only the main playable civs will be flavored for the purposes of simplicity.

I think we may be mixing apples and oranges here. Fine on the UU's but that doesn't mean that Ryukyukoku, for example, can't have the East Asia "flavor" and work along the East Asia tech path.

For religions, as there will be flavored tech trees, civs of particular culture groups can research certain religions that will give them certain structures.

The reason I asked is because by 800 all the major religions have been established. Doesn't mean of course that some can't switch which some did.

That's what I thought also. Perhaps it is "Khagan" with simply a different spelling?

It probably is in Turkic. The later Uighur rulers fancied themselves as emperors and even married into the Imperial Chinese line. If "Qaghan" is too grand then chop it off and leave him to be a king or a chief (as the early Uighurs were).

We don't even have a working alpha yet so it's best not to get too ambitious.

No, but we are making very good progress I think. Blue is working on city lists. Once we get some of these initial basic tasks and decisions out of the way. We can start plugging them into the editor/map and then we will be light years ahead of where we left off with iterations one and two.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I think we may be mixing apples and oranges here. Fine on the UU's but that doesn't mean that Ryukyukoku, for example, can't have the East Asia "flavor" and work along the East Asia tech path.

What I meant by "Unflavored" is that they won't have any particular unique techs, UUs, or Unique buildings associated with them. They will be under a particular category; they just won't have other things attached that could give them specific benefits.

It probably is in Turkic. The later Uighur rulers fancied themselves as emperors and even married into the Imperial Chinese line. If "Qaghan" is too grand then chop it off and leave him to be a king or a chief (as the early Uighurs were).

By this time, the Uighure Khanate is no longer a factor so maybe a king or chieftain of Turfan (which still was around at the time) would do.

 

[Keroro]

I agree that the non-player civs should definately have a flavour, so for example the Indian civs will have the Indian flavour units and buildings and stuff, but no UU. I'd also suggest maybe not giving them any civ traits so that there is no chance of them getting a golden age and sweeping up one of the major civs.

On religions - Could we have any religion available to any civ, but use the flavour settings in the editor to make uncharacteristic religions really expensive? This way there is a possibility of Japanese and Chinese civs developing Islam or Hinduism, but it would be much more expensive than developing Buddhism.

The city lists that Blue is coming up with are great BTW.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I'd also suggest maybe not giving them any civ traits so that there is no chance of them getting a golden age and sweeping up one of the major civs.

If a civ with no civ traits builds any Great Wonder it will have a GA.

 

[Keroro]

If a civ with no civ traits builds any Great Wonder it will have a GA.

Oops. OK, scrap that idea. Thanks TLC. Have to prevent a GA through another technique.

 

[Virote_Considon]

As some "crazy" idea, that I havn't seen in full-scale, but have at a small, how about using some of the Strategic resource spaces for religions? These resources could have a fairly high disappearence rate, but there could be many on the map. All they would do is represent the worship of that religion in that general area. Religious imps/wonders AND religion-based units would require these resources in their radius to build/function. Of course, these resources will come with techs that each civ is flavoured towards/against.

The reason I think we should use resources is because it could represent the uncertainness with any religion. I mean, one minute every citizen in the city could be worshiping Hinduism, and then their hometown starts disliking the religion so they flee to another side of the map. However, the old townspeople then deside to convert to Buddhism, or even remain with just a local religion (represented with just temples, maybe?).

What would everyone think of having resources also (help) represent religions?

 

[Keroro]

@ Virote - I can think of one problem with the religions - IIRC once a building is built it continues giving benefits once the resource is lost. That's not necessarily a problem, but means that a single city could have several religions operating at the same time.

An alternative that I suggested in the old thread was making temples of one religion require a certain government, but this has it's own downside of meaning that you could only have one religion operating in a single civ - not great for demonstrating the diversity of religions that operated in South and Eastern Asia.

On balance I believe that Virote's idea is marginally better. Any other ideas?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Virote's idea is certainly interesting.

I believe buildings requiring a resource shut down if you lose the resource. In particular, ISTR losing Ivory immediately after finishing the Temple of Zeus and so never getting any Ancient Cavalry units in a MP game.

BTW, having them spawned by a building is the only way to restrict construction of units to cities with the resource in the city radius. You'd have a Buddhist monastery spawn those Japanese warrior monks, frex.

 

[7ronin]

We still need:
Chola: UU
Cheras: Capital, Leader
Rashtrakutras: UU
Sukothai: Capital, UU, Leader
Kambujadesa: UU
Champa: Capital, Leader
Nanzhao: UU
Tamna: Capital
Ezo: Capital (suggest using Sendai until we can come up with something more accurate)
Srivijaya: UU

Suggested Great Wonders:
Sun Tzu's Art of War: puts the benefit of a barracks in each of your cities on the same continent.
Dai Buttsu [Great Buddha of Kamakura]: grants two culture points and three happy faces in the city in which it is built; pre-requisite: Buddhism
Secret Arabian Charts: Galleys travel safely in sea squares. Movement allowance of all naval units increased by one. pre-requisite ship building.

Comment: I'm not sure what a "samurai frontier guard" is. Can we investigate something more interesting?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Chola: UU
Cheras: Capital, Leader
Rashtrakutras: UU
Sukothai: Capital, UU, Leader
Kambujadesa: UU
Champa: Capital, Leader
Nanzhao: UU
Tamna: Capital
Ezo: Capital (suggest using Sendai until we can come up with something more accurate)
Srivijaya: UU

For Srivijaya, maybe we can have a Malay djhong privateer unit as a UU. Srivijaya held significant control over the spice trade routes at the time so maybe a naval unit could work.

Jeju-si was always the administrative center of Tamna, but I don't know the old name for it. We'll just stick to Korean names for now.

I'm not sure what a "samurai frontier guard" is. Can we investigate something more interesting?

Since the mod starts in the early Heian Period, the samurai were not yet fully established and mostly soldiers who served to secure the frontier of the emerging Yamato state against the Emishi. Hence the "Samurai Frontier Guard" as UU. This UU will be a horse archer since the early code of honor was Kyuuba no Michi and the image of the samurai as swordsman wasn't really idealized until the Edo Period (ironically in an age of relative peace of stability).

 

[7ronin]

I think the privateer is an excellent choice and fits in well with the commercial and trade aspects of Srivijaya. There are a lot of junk/dhow type ship units available so we ought to be able to find something close enough to be believeable.

 

[Yoda Power]

In my SE-Asian scenario (which is currently on hold because of MEM) I use the Phak'ak Man as UU for Kambujadesa. The Sukhothai capital is Sukhothai (duh!) and the Champa capital and leader are Vijaya and King Indravarman.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Since the mod starts in the early Heian Period, the samurai were not yet fully established and mostly soldiers who served to secure the frontier of the emerging Yamato state against the Emishi. Hence the "Samurai Frontier Guard" as UU. This UU will be a horse archer since the early code of honor was Kyuuba no Michi and the image of the samurai as swordsman wasn't really idealized until the Edo Period (ironically in an age of relative peace of stability).

"Samurai Frontier Guard" is horribly long. I'd just call them Samurai and direct anyone expecting a katana monkey to a 'pedia entry briefly explaining the origins of the samurai.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Changed.

Initially, I was thinking of unique unit lines (sort of like the way I'm doing Annals of Seven Kingdoms), but there's lots of civs so that'd be waaay too much work.

Also just released the Nalanda University wonder graphics. I think I might try making Prambanan next, although I have absolutely no clue as to how I'm going to pull THAT off.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Little known fact: Originally I was going to have Battlefield Asia as nothing more than an all asian version of the epic game with unique unit lines and wonders for the different asian culture groups. I even started on it. But Shiro wanted something different, so I went with his advice. Its still on my computer lol.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Added city improvements, wonders, and small wonders to the list. Need more small wonders and wonder ideas.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Added values for resource bonuses and made some slight changes to the info in the civ list.