(Rising Tide) Fixing Academy spam

[swordoflight86]

I one hundred percent agree with the guy who said that the devs probably aren't going to fix it, because they don't balance based on top tier play.

Most players just putz around, placing cities wherever, building whatever, and I am fairly certain that as long as something is balanced for them, it won't be changed.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Well I really hope they do change them in some way that can't be done through mods because I don't want to have to figure out how to balance them myself and then do it. Modding is fun but I'd prefer doing some creative mods rather than just fixing problems.
Hey, here's an interesting thought. Does respect work with specific tile improvements? What if everyone disliked you for using academies?

 

[Galgus]

That would make no sense.

 

[Gokudo01]

.....

Scientists already give 3 sciences ....
It's the only specialist which gives 3 by default.

people doesn't use it because, even with "hands never idle" it's not as good as academy on grassland or plain.

Give it some better bonus from virtue, half food consumption and/or half unhealth and scientists will be the first specialist to be used.

 

[Endar]

Scientists already give 3 sciences ....
It's the only specialist which gives 3 by default

Okay, I guess I haven't used them for too long)

Then 4 instead of 3.
My point was that they should be as strong as academies.

half unhealth and scientists will be the first specialist to be used

Yes, all specialists require some serious redesign

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Give it some better bonus from virtue, half food consumption and/or half unhealth and scientists will be the first specialist to be used.

I think there's an agreement that does one of those.

 

[nimling]

In an MP game I wouldn't academy spam. The AI's ineptitude at war and diplomacy is a large reason why players on deity can academy spam in the first place, otherwise the energy costs and lack of production/food do hurt. Jungle tiles aren't exactly a gamebreaker in Civ5 despite Universities giving some sweet bonuses, but they can be strong (and stronger still for Brazil or players that went down Commerce).
Production is really valuable, energy is somewhat useful, and in MP army maintenance is a much bigger deal as serious players will often run deficits when warring.

Biowells though are very good, because food and breaking the health cap is good for any strategy, not just science.

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Moved to Ideas & Suggestions

 

[Acken]

As a player who does not like anti-player ai I would disagree with Acken. People don't like blatant anti-player bs such as Shogun 2's realm divide. Having Ais turn on you in explicable and preventable ways is different. People hated backstabs in CiV when every AI did it all the time. Once it was toned down and tied to personalities it was fine. Same with Aggression. I like peaceful play but was in favor of the BNW fall patch that upped AI agression becasue it tied it to civ personality. I disliked the G&K system because EVERY NEIGHBOR ATTACKED BY TURN 70 be it gandhi or Monty. Now I know if I build up they're not coming and it depends on my neighbors so its not the same thing each game. For BE make Bolivar more aggressive and have Fielding and the latest sponsor target the score leader agressively with covert ops. Have Hutama and Lena try to make coalitions or bribe/supply a more agressive civ to fight you. They could also choose to cut trade/agreement ties with a runaway as an embargo. The new message system would be a way yo warn the player and let people who don't check forums or code know the rules.

Fall patch increased agression ? Can't remember considering how BNW AI is passive and peace loving. Winning with 3 archers built the whole game should not be a thing. I'm of the belief that the AI should simply try to win and this mean not being all happy when you run away with victory.

The problem with RealmDivide in Shogun is that it's a pure Anti human mechanism. It's all AI against you rather than each AI trying to get the best of the situation. Trying to stop the runaway human is one thing but you should still see some AI trying to exploit the situation and eat someone else.

You can also tie it to difficulty. Make it top two difficulty AI more aggressive and casuals don't care. Also you can increase alien aggression at the same time. Also I would tie victory aggression to affinity. Players would care less if Harmony and Purity Ais were angry at their supremacy win. It would also give more of a strategic choice to affinities based on neighbors. With affinity points spread around and a hybrid style available you can afford to wait a bit longer to choose an affinity. For Hybrids it would depend on what affinity victoryyou were going for to choose which affinities turned on you.

Yeah no problems with making that kind of stuff Prince+.

 

[Halcyon 7]

I am with Lord Orion on this, make it a a tile replacement and a sacrifice of land for it's benefit. I like the idea of them becoming part of specific strats that aim improve them making it worthwhile to pursue in a more limited capacity rather being a base strat.

(College kids farming, as a cultural boon, or being productive? Happened no where ever. lol)

While I think this is a viable fix the fact is there is always going to be a min max solution, because most people rather give up the minimal effort to win than have fun.

Do I think it needs a rebalance as this seems to be all too prevalent? Yes, but I think there are just times when you gotta hate the player(s) not the game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I am with Lord Orion on this, make it a a tile replacement and a sacrifice of land for it's benefit. I like the idea of them becoming part of specific strats that aim improve them making it worthwhile to pursue in a more limited capacity rather being a base strat.

(College kids farming, as a cultural boon, or being productive? Happened no where ever. lol)

While I think this is a viable fix the fact is there is always going to be a min max solution, because most people rather give up the minimal effort to win than have fun.

Do I think it needs a rebalance as this seems to be all too prevalent? Yes, but I think there are just times when you gotta hate the player(s) not the game.

Actually I'd like to see that with most of the "special" improvements (some would need stats boosted)

so
Domes (boost to a base of 2 food 3? culture +the hp),
Manufacturies (probably make 4 production),
Academies (same 3 science),
Nodes (4 energy?+the healing),
Arrays (1 energy 1 science 1 launch range)
(and still Terrascapes)

the only ones that would still use the underlying terrain would be
Resource improvements, Farms, Mines, Generators, and Biowells

 

[Ryika]

That would make most of the terrain literally irrelevant in the midgame though... somewhat fitting for the setting, but silly in terms of gameplay if you ask me.

I think there's some validity of removing the food-element from academies by making them override yield, but it doesn't sound like the ideal solution to me either.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That would make most of the terrain literally irrelevant in the midgame though... somewhat fitting for the setting, but silly in terms of gameplay if you ask me.

I think there's some validity of removing the food-element from academies by making them override yield, but it doesn't sound like the ideal solution to me either.

Terrain would still matter for things like Farms + Mines (which Should be the best ways of getting Food+Production)...part of it would depend on also making energy a bit less super easy to get, so that the maintenance cost is somewhat significant.

You would have to balance the numbers (4 might be better for the manufactury..although it does have the unhealth)

However having the special improvements for Supremacy + Purity ignore the underlying terrain makes sense.

For terrain importance in the late game it would be better to focus on resources. (resource-in-this-city buildings that provide % boosts)

 

[Azem.Ocram]

I think biowells should be made more expensive (take longer to build and cost 3 energy per turn) and produce less food (1 per turn instead of 2) but have the same upgrades and still only increase local city health (working them in a small city with health buildings does nothing, not working them also does nothing). Academies on the other and should be separated into worker improvements and great-person improvements. Worker improvements cost 3 energy per turn and produce 2 science, Great Masters (S/P) can create academies with 1 energy cost and 3 science production per turn (but Great Masters require special points accumulated each turn from Supremacy and Purity affinity levels and requires you to turn down Great Purists (with a maintanance-free culture producing pilgrimage/sporting/artistic site) and Supremists (with a high tech Manufactury with +3 production, buffed by the same techs but no maintenance). The Harmony Great Person improvement would be like a super Biowell (current Biowell stats but 1 energy per turn maintenance).

 

[nimling]

Simple fix - increase academy upkeep to 3 or nerf yield to 2. You guys are overcomplicating and overrating an improvement, based on the presumption of playing against the AI, mostly by exploiting its' many weaknesses.

Academies have quite a few costs associated with them - part of the upkeep is that those cities aren't using that land for yields other than science, so you're not just paying the 2 gold upkeep on them. For cities that aren't there to build it's not a big deal, and specializing some cities to build gets around this, but for something like Harmony it hleps to have a lot of cities with production to build mindstems and xenosanctuaries. The last transcend game I played actually won the game the turn Mind Flower was built, due to having already built Mind Stems in several cities. That isn't happening if I had those cities spamming Academies, because I used a lot of rushbuilds and production to set up science/food buildings and so on.

It makes more sense in Supremacy games, where Cognition and Academy buffs are attached to affinity techs. Supremacy's building requirements should allow a few cities cranking out units to be sufficient, and still wants tech even after the emancipation gate is complete for better gate food.

Again I'm operating on the presumption that I would want to play as if my opponent were somewhat competent, and not too easy to bribe (and didn't have the absurd bonuses AI get on Apollo that force Academy spam just to have decent tech).

 

[Azem.Ocram]

I changed my mind, my new idea (combined with others) is in my new thread.

 

[Ryika]

I hope you guys are still talking about Beyond Earth, because in Rising Tide Academies have already been nerfed and it seems like nobody uses them anymore.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I hope you guys are still talking about Beyond Earth, because in Rising Tide Academies have already been nerfed and it seems like nobody uses them anymore.

Really? I thought the only change was one less science, or was something else a factor. I read that they took a long time to construct but the build time looked the same to me. Maybe that was a change in the base game patch that isn't in RT?

 

[Ryika]

1 less science for Academies, while food from farms now basically "spreads" through your empire thanks to insanely strong, buffed trade routes delivering Food to the weaker city.

So if City A has a ton of Food and sends a trade route to City B City B gets a ton of Food from a Trade Route and can then send another trade Route to City C that gets a ton of Food because it probably doesn't have much food itself, etc. etc. - the result is an extremely healthy empire full of huge cities.

And of course, with Artificial Evolution farms give just 1 less science than Academies, cost no maintenance and also give +1 food with the potential of even more bonuses if you want to.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Ah, so it's not actually fixed it's just another overpowered thing is overshadowing it.