Rome 2 - Impressions

Okay, first impression - perhaps not something many people have spoken about, but I feel like my face is smashed against the ground.
Where the hell can I improve the zoom out please ? It's just horribly annoying not to be able to gain some height to gauge the situation, both in campaign and battle maps...
 
Okay, first impression - perhaps not something many people have spoken about, but I feel like my face is smashed against the ground.
Where the hell can I improve the zoom out please ? It's just horribly annoying not to be able to gain some height to gauge the situation, both in campaign and battle maps...

The campaign map view is too cramped, I agree - you have to use the 'strategic view', which is static and accessed by clicking the compass icon. Z or scrolling up while holding down the mouse wheel (a new command - past TW games haven't had a vertical camera mode) zooms out in the tactical view, and seems sufficient to see both armies as they're deployed.
 
Not exactly on topic but what is the best total war game in your view?
 
Not exactly on topic but what is the best total war game in your view?

Conventional wisdom has it that in a technical sense, Medieval I + Viking Invasion is the best Total War game, but I haven't played Medieval for many years and never Viking Invasion so I'll have to compare the more recent entries (all of which I have played).

To some extent the answer is going to differ depending on whether you're focusing on the strategic or tactical level - while overall I'd say Shogun 2 is the best game, it is rather limited for tactical play for similar reasons to Rome 2 - the battles aren't as fast, but they can be over quickly, and there's not a whole heap of variety in the units (Rome 2 doesn't technically have this problem, but there's only so much variety that's actually relevant in a siege - I wouldn't be surprised to find it's a bit like playing the Maratha in Empire, where you have half a million types of cavalry, exactly none of which are of any use in a siege, while your several artillery variants all do exactly the same thing). Shogun 2 has bad AI, but knows enough to compensate with unit spam and gigantic rushes.

But Shogun 2 has a few things going for it:

1. Interface: The interface is probably the cleanest and most accessible in any TW game, and it actually has an encyclopedia to boot.

2. Sieges. Okay, the AI can't attack successfully in a siege - it's better than Medieval II, but the less said about that game's tactical AI the better. But Shogun 2 is the first TW game to have a siege system with a semi-meaningful 'capture' objective (rather than something you nominally have to capture but which you'll only actually capture when everyone's dead anyway because the enemy units sit on the victory point), and where controlling and opening gates was important (because without ladders scaling a defended fortress is suicide).

Above all, sieges in S2 could be dynamic and fun. This is not to be underestimated - TW games revolve around territory control and pitched open-field battles in campaign games are rather rare. Until the victory conditions change or a Paradox-style 'warscore' system is introduced that allows you to contest control of a province through pitched battles, most battles in a TW campaign will be sieges. This is to my mind fundamentally what killed Empire - muskets and sieges don't play well together, and a game that was all muskets, cavalry and artillery vs. a large fortress involved mostly standing around for ages waiting while the cannon ever so slowly blew holes in the wall, and then chucking things unceremoniously into the resulting gap.

Actually, Empire had a very well-designed open-field combat system, and was the only game in the series in which actual unit formations (rather than army formations) were of much tactical relevance (after years of playing TW games I've yet to determine any noticeable game effect from whether my melee units are wide or deep, other than finding space to put them on the map) - seeing a cavalry charge and forming an infantry square to repel it and the like made for a much more dynamic tactical game than most, but with the lousy AI and (thanks to all the sieges) the fact that you were asleep long before you actually met an enemy in the open field (or researched infantry squares), no one ever got to enjoy it.

3. Agents. Shogun 2 agents were not exactly balanced (then again, TW agents never have been very well-balanced), but the design was the best so far in a TW game. I've yet to experiment much with R2 agents to see whether the more varied stats and mission types are a further improvement. The removal of merchant and diplomat agents (actually an Empire innovation, but carried over) is a marked improvement - there wasn't a lot of strategic flexibility in using these in the older games, and merchants in particular 'levelled up' more or less randomly, so constantly losing agents to hostile takeovers, or being unable to close deals because you rolled a bad diplomat, was an exercise in frustration in Medieval II. Shogun 2 also adopted Empire's trade system wholesale, which aside from the AI's irritating behaviour re raiding trade routes is a big improvement for the series.

4. Streamlining. Shogun 2 did discard some stuff rather unfortunately, and I still think that "gold=everything" is a bit of an oversimplified approach to empire management and that tax slider should be local (as in older TW games, but not S2 or R2). But Total War is not a strategically complex game and never has been, and Empire/Napoleon in particular bloated the strategic layer (distinct building chains for otherwise identical tobacco and cotton, for instance). Complexity is great in a game, but feature bloat that gives the appearance of complexity to a game that basically amounts to "build economy, buy units, go kill things" is just sloppy. Most of Shogun 2's streamlining has been widely welcomed, I think rightly so.

5. Dilemmas were a new type of event that added extra flavour in S2, though you still get the traditional missions (exactly who's offering them being a perennial puzzle, as S2 has no Pope or Senate equivalent).

6. Strategic AI. It's not great, but it's better than in any other TW game. The AI can identify weak targets and prioritise them, it will sometimes ally to fight a common enemy, it will refuse to open borders even to friendly factions if doing so would let you gazzump a province (which gives the illusion that it has its own agenda), and it's capable (though not brilliant) in its unit selection and army coordination. The realm divide mechanic is annoyingly arbitrary, and Fall of the Samurai shows only one way in which it could be handled better than vanilla, but it does at least achieve its stated objective: to make the Total War late game a challenge, while in past games when you had an established economy, developed settlements, and a couple of big stacks, winning the game was just a matter of slogging through sieges.

7. Tech progression is about right in terms of unlocking units and buildings at appropriate game stages, and the AI will mostly keep up (in Medieval II I'd routinely have much more advanced units than the AI, and it looks as though units unlock very rapidly in R2 as well), and more advanced units rarely make earlier ones wholly redundant.

8. Setting variety. This is a bit of a cheat, but I love the idea of having a TW game that covers a fully pre-gunpowder period (a la Rome, minus the exploding ballista bolts of Rome 2), a medieval period where guns are gradually introduced (a la Medieval) and a modern, gunpowder period (sort of a la Empire/Napoleon, but somewhat more recent). Shogun 2 is the only TW game that offers the "whole" TW experience, as it were. It's a cheat because Fall of the Samurai is to all intents and purposes an unrelated product, with no units, techs, or even map common to Shogun 2, and which doesn't require vanilla to play.

The only big downside I'd say Shogun 2 has is naval warfare. The AI is terrible but more than that the system - designed as it is for Empire's Age of Sail naval warfare and with the corresponding map sizes to accommodate that - is not at all suited to clashes between coastal patrol boats. Battles between slow, short-ranged ships on giant maps are long and tedious, and lack tactical variety due to core limitations in unit design - Empire and Napoleon (and Fall of the Samurai) had a set of formation, speed and ammunition types for different ships (even if you did, in practice, just automatically select chainshot, immobilise the enemy and wait for surrender). Beyond rowing hard, battle cries for melee ships and fire arrows, Shogun 2 naval combat is just closing and boarding/shooting. Boarding actions themselves are slow, and ships all but impossible to physically destroy - you can burn them with fire arrows, which will work if they then surrender (i.e. jump ship), but otherwise you end up with gigantic inflated fleets you're continually having to return and repair (unless you just scuttle your captures).

This becomes a problem because the AI forces naval warfare on you - not only do the factions all assiduously raid trade routes (with navies of one ship at a time, which are very easy but tedious and repetitive to deal with), but there's a dedicated non-player pirate faction, and autoresolving battles is very poor (as in every TW game except R2). Much of the tedium you don't get from repetitive sieges is sadly restored by even more repetitive naval battles.
 
Total War games have taught me not to be dazzled by the screenshots and to wait for the fan verdit. So far, things haven't been all that positive. I'll end up getting it eventually, but it won't be for a while.
 
From what I see everywhere, RTW2 seems to be pretty horrible.
I'll see for myself soon, but I'm pretty disappointed by some design decisions already.
From the game I most anticipated this year, this is a gut punch :(

Its not a 9 out of 10 Game.
Its a 7.5, 8 out of ten game. That is still a pretty good score. And problems get fixed. Wait till the Christmas sale, and most should be done then
 
I would agree that technicly, Shogun 2 is the best, but the lack of variety is a major killer. I bought all the dlc clans, but barely played any of them. Even the otomo couldnt interest me for long. Rise of the samurai was however very good. A co-op campaign s very fun, provided technical issues dont kill it.

I havent got much time yet to play Rome 2, i did the prologue and am like 12 turns in a rome campaign on normal. Im asking it here because TWC is totally cramped. Whats p with the remainings of a faction? I destroyed the etruscan league (and got the achievement for it), but ive spent the last 5 turns chasing down ships of them.
 
"Building nothing but farms" is an intended feature - the TW strategy layer has always been very simple and mostly about making enough money to buy and support your units. Farms are S2's commerce buildings (for some odd reason).

Hmm that's an interesting way of looking at it. I thought of it as design oversight because 1. it punishes anyone from developing their towns beyond 2 to 4 that will be used for army/agent recruitment purposes (hard to imagine them intending for much of their in-game assets to be actively discouraged from being used) and 2. they completely scrapped the model for both of the DLC-expansions. Maybe they were going to scrap the economy mechanics no matter what, but given that the 2 DLCs have more in common with each other than the vanilla seems like even they were not happy with how vanilla economy worked, and then found one that was more satisfying. Hell, even Rome 2's model is pretty close to how the RotS and FotS worked.

But enough about Shogun 2 I guess, I envy you for getting Rome 2 to work so well. Maybe I'm spoiled by rock solid 60 fps of Shogun 2 but the FPS fluctuation in Rome 2 with turn time is just too excruciating for me to deal with. Sadly the beta patch didn't help much either :(
 
I would agree that technicly, Shogun 2 is the best, but the lack of variety is a major killer. I bought all the dlc clans, but barely played any of them. Even the otomo couldnt interest me for long. Rise of the samurai was however very good. A co-op campaign s very fun, provided technical issues dont kill it.

If the religion system had been better-implemented, the Otomo and Ikko-Ikki would have felt more different (as it is I do like the Otomo), but both clans were added post-release and the system wasn't designed with the intent of being able to play the non-Shinto religions. The fact that you could convert entire provinces' population and have absolutely no effect on the state religion of the other clan (even if it was their last province) meant that religion was nothing more than a very static diplo modifier.

As it is, Shogun 2 does a lot with the limited variety it has - TW games have rather few unit archetypes, and a lot of the "variety" is just reskinning of the same units with slightly different stats. All, after all, have to fit within the same basic framework of sword-spear-archer-cavalry-musket-siege (except for occasional oddballs). I love the fact that Empire's Maratha had cavalry units with three different types of mounts (camel, horse, elephant), and variations on each, but the camel melee cavalry were still just a slightly faster version of the light horse, albeit one that scared cavalry. Rome 2's scorpion works much like its ballista only with a different special ability (and one not much less silly. Need a sniper weapon? Go for a mobile ballista!). Of course S2 also has faction modifiers to units, wealth generation and agent abilities, lacking in previous TW games. Rome 2's faction modifiers work in the same way as Fall of the Samurai's (i.e. with a faction modifier, plus a subfaction modifier).

What Shogun did was make its unit archetypes different. A spear unit was drastically weaker against most targets than a sword unit, but could beat most cavalry, and as a result you used it differently. This degree of hard-countering is missing from most TW games, including in my experience so far (which is about as long as yours) Rome 2. You can get by with just about anything vs. just about anything else, you're just likely to have a little more success with the "right" counters. You go to a Shogun 2 battle without the right units, you lose even with substantial numerical superiority.

I havent got much time yet to play Rome 2, i did the prologue and am like 12 turns in a rome campaign on normal. Im asking it here because TWC is totally cramped. Whats p with the remainings of a faction? I destroyed the etruscan league (and got the achievement for it), but ive spent the last 5 turns chasing down ships of them.

That always used to be the way TW games worked (and sometimes Shogun 2 does - I was actually a bit disappointed when I defeated one large army bearing down on my settlement just by conquering its capital, whereupon it promptly vanished. I have had cases where I destroyed the Sagara and their former army turned into an identical "Sagara rebel" army and retook the city). The idea is that as long as an army survives, it's possible for the faction to retake either its lost territory or a new settlement, so you can't rely on it being wiped out. I'm glad that Rome 2 does this.

Though destroying ships seems odd. Unless the ship physically sinks, it seems it will always survive even if it only has one or two soldiers left - a fleet with too few soldiers won't sink post-battle as in Shogun or Empire.
 
Hmm that's an interesting way of looking at it. I thought of it as design oversight because 1. it punishes anyone from developing their towns beyond 2 to 4 that will be used for army/agent recruitment purposes (hard to imagine them intending for much of their in-game assets to be actively discouraged from being used) and 2. they completely scrapped the model for both of the DLC-expansions. Maybe they were going to scrap the economy mechanics no matter what, but given that the 2 DLCs have more in common with each other than the vanilla seems like even they were not happy with how vanilla economy worked, and then found one that was more satisfying. Hell, even Rome 2's model is pretty close to how the RotS and FotS worked.

But enough about Shogun 2 I guess, I envy you for getting Rome 2 to work so well. Maybe I'm spoiled by rock solid 60 fps of Shogun 2 but the FPS fluctuation in Rome 2 with turn time is just too excruciating for me to deal with. Sadly the beta patch didn't help much either :(

Okay, it's possible we're at cross-purposes here because I'm not sure quite what you're getting at - I'm thinking of the fact that the farm chain buildings produce both food (which allows strongholds etc., and hence an increase in tax income) and most of your domestic gold income. Rome 2's farms work exactly the same way, and from recollection so do those in the Shogun 2 expansions.

I don't see the system punishing town development; you need to build farms in order to develop towns. What Shogun 2's province system does want to do - as Rome's does with its edicts - is promote specialisation, and to favour upgrading along the building chain in a given province over building a large number of more generalised buildings.

I think changes that were made in the DLCs were made because of changes to the garrison mechanics - you need more spare building slots because you get garrisons primarily from towns (which take a slot) rather than from the fortress, and still need space for the usual dojos and agent buildings.
 
Okay, it's possible we're at cross-purposes here because I'm not sure quite what you're getting at - I'm thinking of the fact that the farm chain buildings produce both food (which allows strongholds etc., and hence an increase in tax income) and most of your domestic gold income. Rome 2's farms work exactly the same way, and from recollection so do those in the Shogun 2 expansions.

I don't see the system punishing town development; you need to build farms in order to develop towns. What Shogun 2's province system does want to do - as Rome's does with its edicts - is promote specialisation, and to favour upgrading along the building chain in a given province over building a large number of more generalised buildings.

I think changes that were made in the DLCs were made because of changes to the garrison mechanics - you need more spare building slots because you get garrisons primarily from towns (which take a slot) rather than from the fortress, and still need space for the usual dojos and agent buildings.

Most of your gold in Shogun 2 came from the ridiculous effect of global surplus food adding to each province wealth. So if you upgraded your castle to improve tax income, it actually hurt you both in the short term (cost of the castle) and in the long term (losing out of ridiculous global wealth growth).

Because of that surplus food system and how beneficial it was to never improve your castles outside of that one or two unit producing towns, I don't see how it can be compared to Rome 2 at all, where Rome 2's system actively encourages you to unlock building slots because local growth is dedicated to getting you that extra building slot and nothing else.

Edit: More I play, Rome 2 is looking like a diamond in a rough sack of poop. So the food surplus is global, but with high tier food buildings having lot of local penalties, so you have to spread out your advance food buildings then offset them by local happiness (or whatever it was called in the game) buildings, which eats up lot of food. Intriguing.

Also if anyone is wondering how army cap is going to affect you... it should never affect a normal playthrough. In my game, I united modern day greek provinces and my army cap improved from 3 to 6. IDK how most people play total war games, but for early-mid phase 6 armies are more than plenty (it's more than I ever needed to build in Shogun 2 for example lol). So assuming that it continues to increase at least 2 more times, the new army system (recruitment based on armies with unit types dependent on province where army is located) looks and feels like an improvement. It feels very organic for sure.

But I say Rome 2 is diamond in a bag of poop because it's sooo unoptimized and buggy. If you already played Rome 2 and think you are unaffected by bugs, think again because combat AI is suffering some major indecisiveness issues so you are bound to have ran into these issues.
 
Most of your gold in Shogun 2 came from the ridiculous effect of global surplus food adding to each province wealth. So if you upgraded your castle to improve tax income, it actually hurt you both in the short term (cost of the castle) and in the long term (losing out of ridiculous global wealth growth).

Hmm, I'd actually never noticed that. I always get the majority of my income from trade points while I build up my economy (including strongholds), then turn to extortion hiking the tax rate. I always have an embarrassing amount of gold in the late game anyway.

Also if anyone is wondering how army cap is going to affect you... it should never affect a normal playthrough. In my game, I united modern day greek provinces and my army cap improved from 3 to 6

I agree. The real reason to build more armies is not to have more armies, but to have more generals, since you can no longer have more than one per army. Still not quite sure how this works (I have two surviving generals in my own house, but still 41% influence), but I think the intent at least is that more generals = more influence = some so far unspecified effect relating to politics. Plus generals can have direct effects like public order boosts and construction discounts that can be useful by themselves if you just garrison them in a province, as well as acting as the province's recruitment building (no general, you can't rapidly build units to deal with an enemy advance).

IDK how most people play total war games, but for early-mid phase 6 armies are more than plenty (it's more than I ever needed to build in Shogun 2 for example lol). So assuming that it continues to increase at least 2 more times, the new army system (recruitment based on armies with unit types dependent on province where army is located) looks and feels like an improvement.

The cap isn't the issue for me, it's lack of flexibility and character. I can't have multiple characters stacked in an army to gain the benefits of their varied traits, I can't have armies I can send off on their own to raid or skirmish without risking a valuable character, and I can't have Man of the Hour promotions or similar effects.

It's a clunky system and R2 acknowledges this itself in the sloppy way it handles fleets - on the one hand it needs to be able to transport people across sea, and in exactly the same way as any other TW game you can indeed load your soldiers into an existing fleet. But hang on, we can't maintain that many fleets and half of those want to stay in port for the same kinds of boost a general gives. So we have to let armies transport themselves by sea. With the end result that the same game contains two systems for achieving exactly the same thing, the essence of poor game design.

But I say Rome 2 is diamond in a bag of poop because it's sooo unoptimized and buggy.

I'm not sure poor AI is a bug, per se. But I've certainly had some bizarre results today.

I wanted to finish up an attack on Karalis, so left my recent Carthaginian capture unguarded - a Carthaginian army moved in, and I learned that garrisons take time to develop to full health, so I had 3 30-man units. Carthage had one general's spearman unit.

The ship carrying it moved to shore close to the victory point, so that's where I expected them to head. Instead they landed, moved outside the town, and headed for a road, possibly in search of my units (all hidden). "Okay", I thought, "long way round, but it's clever of sorts to use the road". Only, when they got there, the spearmen did this:

I waited for a bit, and they did this:

Spoiler :


So I stuck the game on 4x speed and my men took time out to drop their flag and pose for a photo shoot:

Spoiler :


While the Carthaginians did this:

Spoiler :


Looking increasingly bored, as though thinking "Wow, this is taking as long as an Empire siege battle, and only slightly more is happening".

50-odd minutes later:

Spoiler :


Then there's the problem I highlighted earlier. Take this siege battle:

Spoiler :


(no, I didn't realise how many ladders you get per ladder selection).

I chose a foggy day since I was, after all, attacking and wanted to reduce the damage dealt by the ranged units on the ... hang on.

Spoiler :


Is it just me, or is something missing here?

I've also seen Libyan (Carthaginian client state) fleets floating back and forth without ever doing anything (making a mockery of my panicked "The Libyans!" Doc Brown impressions), while the surviving Etruscans suicided by attacking one of my settlements - sure, if they were going to get a settlement of their own again they need to attack, but was Roma really the optimal target when they had about three spearmen units, mostly damaged, and nothing else?
 
Because of that surplus food system and how beneficial it was to never improve your castles outside of that one or two unit producing towns, I don't see how it can be compared to Rome 2 at all, where Rome 2's system actively encourages you to unlock building slots because local growth is dedicated to getting you that extra building slot and nothing else.

Edit to my last: Hold on, do you just mean the fact that surplus food offsets growth penalties from taxation, because growth was only a gold boost in S2? Or is there another effect of surplus food? The former is very minor unless you have a lot of food, and I doubt that having that much food would offset the bonus you get from increasing the tax rate with the extra repression from strongholds (it would certainly be much slower to build an economy that way).

Edit: More I play, Rome 2 is looking like a diamond in a rough sack of poop. So the food surplus is global, but with high tier food buildings having lot of local penalties, so you have to spread out your advance food buildings then offset them by local happiness (or whatever it was called in the game) buildings, which eats up lot of food. Intriguing.

I was briefly puzzled by what the food system was doing since growth didn't match local food production, until I worked out that Rome 2 is basically trying to do some bizarre Total War-ised version of Civ's city growth mechanic (lots of different buildings that produce food in the same way as Civ citizens, and that food is turned into growth in the central settlement).

It's an extremely inelegant mechanism in R2 to put it mildly: you produce one - global - resource in local buildings, whose purpose is nothing more than to be turned into a separate resource by other, local, buildings that are used for local growth (and a surplus used for global growth because even without specialisation you're going to be producing much more food than you consume locally).

It's not at all clear why this should be preferable to Shogun 2's food=growth as a 1:1 equivalence, both at the same scale, let alone the decision-making (trivial as it may be) needed to trade the benefits of surplus food off against the benefits of expansion. Shogun 2's growth/gold equivalence was poor, but that just means redefining what the growth mechanic does - not creating a new intermediary resource that does effectively nothing and changing the way it's generated so drastically.

So assuming that it continues to increase at least 2 more times, the new army system (recruitment based on armies with unit types dependent on province where army is located) looks and feels like an improvement. It feels very organic for sure.

This was always the way recruitment worked in TW. All TW games with mercenaries recruited mercenaries specific to the province the army was in. Any province building units could only build units that province had access to (which is exactly what the "new" general system is doing - the only difference is that you're clicking a recruit button in the general's tab rather than the province's). Even with Shogun 2's pointless "recruit at a distance" mechanic for armies in the field, the units would recruit only in provinces that actually had buildings to generate them. There's nothing either novel or more "organic" about this system than prior ones.
 
I think the design decision is pretty clear, they don't want small raiding party at all (which makes the AI extra ironic and idiotic since that's all the AI tries to do with their tiny mini armies that just melt at your doomstack).

And this is an example of why I think current state of AI is a bug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdpIENG0Y2k

No way that's intended behavior lol XD

Edit to my last: Hold on, do you just mean the fact that surplus food offsets growth penalties from taxation, because growth was only a gold boost in S2? Or is there another effect of surplus food? The former is very minor unless you have a lot of food, and I doubt that having that much food would offset the bonus you get from increasing the tax rate with the extra repression from strongholds (it would certainly be much slower to build an economy that way).

It is indeed very minor at the start... but then after you get 5+ provinces and just rush the farm tech tree, it starts to pile on in non-linear fashion as every new province you get not only benefit from rest of your provinces producing the surplus food, but also add to rest of your provinces by producing surplus food itself. Towards mid phase I'm talking about 30+ growth per turn (that's AFTER subtracting the tax penalty BTW) for every single province you own, and it only gets larger as the game goes on. It is a mechanic that suffers from snowballing effect way too much, and the broken aspect of it kicks in well before the realm divide.

I was briefly puzzled by what the food system was doing since growth didn't match local food production, until I worked out that Rome 2 is basically trying to do some bizarre Total War-ised version of Civ's city growth mechanic (lots of different buildings that produce food in the same way as Civ citizens, and that food is turned into growth in the central settlement).

It's an extremely inelegant mechanism in R2 to put it mildly: you produce one - global - resource in local buildings, whose purpose is nothing more than to be turned into a separate resource by other, local, buildings that are used for local growth (and a surplus used for global growth because even without specialisation you're going to be producing much more food than you consume locally).

There is no more growth outside of food growing building slots. Town wealth is now fixed value that can only be increased by preset values from buildings. And surplus food caps at 25 (5 food per 1 global growth and I think 4% reinforcement rate, so the cap of surplus food is 5 global growth and 20% reinforcement rate increase). So global food production is no longer just massing as much food as possible... With Rome 2, economy is now act of balancing by maintaining that 25 global surplus food while squeezing as much production/wealth out of your provinces through local effect buildings that eat up foods.

I just find that to be much more elegant than the surplus food spam I experienced back in Shogun 2. At least so far. Maybe I just haven't found the broken aspect of Rome 2's economy yet.

It's not at all clear why this should be preferable to Shogun 2's food=growth as a 1:1 equivalence, both at the same scale, let alone the decision-making (trivial as it may be) needed to trade the benefits of surplus food off against the benefits of expansion. Shogun 2's growth/gold equivalence was poor, but that just means redefining what the growth mechanic does - not creating a new intermediary resource that does effectively nothing and changing the way it's generated so drastically.

There was no trading between surplus food vs expansion back in Shogun 2... you expand, you get more surplus food, and have more province that benefit from your already existing surplus food :crazyeye:

This was always the way recruitment worked in TW. All TW games with mercenaries recruited mercenaries specific to the province the army was in. Any province building units could only build units that province had access to (which is exactly what the "new" general system is doing - the only difference is that you're clicking a recruit button in the general's tab rather than the province's). Even with Shogun 2's pointless "recruit at a distance" mechanic for armies in the field, the units would recruit only in provinces that actually had buildings to generate them. There's nothing either novel or more "organic" about this system than prior ones.

I played Rome, Medieval 2, Empire, Shogun 2 and Rome 2 so far... and this was never how recruitment worked outside of mercenaries, which are rather tiny part of the series. Empire introduced the clunky "recruit at distance" that you are talking about in Shogun 2 but it was functionally differently because it still produced units at nearby cities, which then just auto rallied to the army. Rome 2 on the other hand, directly produce units on the location of the army while locking the army in position during recruitment.

In smaller provinces this will be a trivial change, but there are many bigger provinces in the game and this makes a big difference there. As an example, Sparta, Athene and modern day Crete? form single province. So you can have a rax in Crete and produce all the units that rax unlocks back in the mainland, and vice versa.

Just to balance things out so that I don't come off as someone who just can't find no faults with Rome 2... there are lot of things wrong with this game, one of such is that they really didn't do right is missile unit-siege balance, because right now siege units just kill units faster and better in field battles, as well as being able to break down walls. It's kinda ridiculous that ancient artillery perform better on field than the ones from Empire Total War's early game.

Edit: Oh cool, check out how you can select the map in custom battle.
 
Its not the combat units that bore me, cause im no fool: i know most units in Empire, Napoleon and even Medievall 2 are just minor tweaks from each other. I loved the combat cause it was clear: a general wouldnt rip through spear units like they did in medievall 2. Its the faction diversity that bore me. Especially cause every campaign would end in realm divide, leading to very similar campaigns.


Yeah i know about rebels who get the faction name after defeating a faction, its just that there are 4 seperate ships/units, sailing around, quite annoying. And they are still in the diplomacy tab...

EDIT: they launched an attack on a beach (with 26 men), i kill them all, and yet they still sail away on the campaign map. Thats really annoying

EDIT2: even worse, the next turn they do the same, and they still have 26 men....

Stil dont get btw if the buildings (like temples and such) influence only the region or the whole province. Cause if its the first then it doesnt matter whether i build livestock in one regio and cattle trader in the next
 
I think the design decision is pretty clear, they don't want small raiding party at all (which makes the AI extra ironic and idiotic since that's all the AI tries to do with their tiny mini armies that just melt at your doomstack).

And this is a problem. Being intended does not excuse it being bad design. A strategy game that removes strategic options is not a welcome change.

Besides which, for reasons you've already pointed out this doesn't do anything to stop you actually using raiding parties - you have access to more armies than you'd ever need to do that. All it does is force you to include a general in the raiding parties. I see no reason for this, or any way in which it improves the game.

And this is an example of why I think current state of AI is a bug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdpIENG0Y2k

No way that's intended behavior lol XD

Haven't seen anything quite like that... Maybe the AI was really trying to draw the defenders out with feints...?

I was coming to the conclusion based on my experience that the AI struggles with the true line of sight system - maybe its units (clustered over the other side of town) couldn't see my siege attackers, and I know the static Carthaginian attackers couldn't see any defending units. In those situations it appears not to know what to do at all.

But obviously that doesn't explain this bug.

t is indeed very minor at the start... but then after you get 5+ provinces and just rush the farm tech tree, it starts to pile on in non-linear fashion as every new province you get not only benefit from rest of your provinces producing the surplus food, but also add to rest of your provinces by producing surplus food itself. Towards mid phase I'm talking about 30+ growth per turn (that's AFTER subtracting the tax penalty BTW) for every single province you own, and it only gets larger as the game goes on. It is a mechanic that suffers from snowballing effect way too much, and the broken aspect of it kicks in well before the realm divide.

If you're sitting on 5-10 provinces long enough to get through the farm tech tree (even rushing) and finish the resulting buildings, I can see that it would kick in before realm divide - I tend to expand much more quickly. I also think you're looking at a false economy - swimming in gold when you don't need it isn't a useful exploit; if you're conquering and taxing provinces more quickly, you're making more gold earlier and those costs pay off in the long run since what you buy with them sticks around.

Bear in mind also that food is not the only factor affecting growth - you get negative growth from taxes.

There is no more growth outside of food growing building slots.

No, food buildings produce food. Only settlement buildings produce growth, which is for some reason handled as a separate resource. A very basic starting settlement with a farm and a village produces 6 food, of which the village consumes 4 and generates 2 growth. The remaining 2 food goes into the global food pool and adds a little more to growth.

So in this very simple situation you have one resource trying to do two separate things - 1. turn food into a separate growth mechanic locally, and 2. turn excess food into the same growth mechanic, but globally and at a lower rate.

When you might as well just halve the food production (since the growth/consumption ratio in settlements generally seems to be 2:1) and use food directly to produce town growth, as in S2. The way growth is measured (expanded building slots rather than gold income) may be an improvement, but this is an extraordinarily clumsy way to go about it.

Town wealth is now fixed value that can only be increased by preset values from buildings. And surplus food caps at 25 (5 food per 1 global growth and I think 4% reinforcement rate, so the cap of surplus food is 5 global growth and 20% reinforcement rate increase). So global food production is no longer just massing as much food as possible... With Rome 2, economy is now act of balancing by maintaining that 25 global surplus food while squeezing as much production/wealth out of your provinces through local effect buildings that eat up foods.

So far I haven't been specialising at all in my campaign and I already have a 20 food surplus with control of two and a half provinces. This may go down as I unlock more food-consuming buildings, but so far I'm seeing no trade-off - I can just let the game do its own thing and it will give me everything I need. While in Shogun 2 I did play by balancing production against food.

I just find that to be much more elegant than the surplus food spam I experienced back in Shogun 2. At least so far. Maybe I just haven't found the broken aspect of Rome 2's economy yet.

I think you're just overestimating how useful "food spam" was.

As for R2, now you want to "food spam" until you hit an arbitrary limit, and there's no trade-off with expansion because food = expansion. And you still want more farm buildings because they add to local growth even once you hit the cap.

It seems that R2 has come up with an economic model so poor that even the designers have had to compensate by setting an arbitrary limit to stop you growing too much surplus, rather than finding a way to make a useful food vs. development trade-off. That does not strike me as good game design; fixed caps on anything usually aren't, and R2 seems full of them.

There was no trading between surplus food vs expansion back in Shogun 2... you expand, you get more surplus food, and have more province that benefit from your already existing surplus food :crazyeye:

I played Rome, Medieval 2, Empire, Shogun 2 and Rome 2 so far... and this was never how recruitment worked outside of mercenaries, which are rather tiny part of the series.

I'm not sure if you're seeing my point. The fact that you recruit from the army is irrelevant - a province can only recruit units it has the buildings to recruit. This is all that's happening here. If you don't have an artillery building, you can't build cannon.

This isn't equivalent to the field recruitment of the last game or (as you point out) Empire. It's equivalent to recruiting units from the province screen - an option that no longer exists. Say I'm in London in M2 - it's a town, so I can't recruit units I'd be able to in a castle. If I have no archery range, I can't recruit archers. etc. etc.

Rome 2 isn't doing anything else - it's just an interface change that puts the button in the general's panel rather than the province's. Yes, it puts the units directly into the army even if the army isn't stationed in the settlement, but this is just a slight convenience that saves a turn of moving a unit, not any kind of fundamental change to recruitment.

And for that you actually end up sacrificing utility and, again, flexibility - no, you don't get to recruit a unit and move it to the army you want it in. In fact it's now impossible to do this. All you can do is create a new general as a "spawning point", create the units you want, take them to join the other army in the field (since you're unlikely to actually want to use it in your primary spawning province), then bring the other general all the way back since he can't join the army. That, or just sit the army in your spawning province until it's full and then move it out, doing the above to replace losses (though it seems you have to be very careless to lose land units in R2 - they survive on the smallest unit numbers, and even if they do break the AI never pursues them). Is this really an improvement or "more organic" than the older system?

And on the subject of recruitment buildings, another lapse with the province system. Buildings now work at province level, but it's common to capture settlements with duplicates of buildings you already have. Extra Fields of Mars and other recruitment buildings are almost wholly redundant (although they add a minor garrison force). So this new system prompts you to dismantle or 'convert' them all into something more useful, which seems very clumsy design.

In smaller provinces this will be a trivial change, but there are many bigger provinces in the game and this makes a big difference there. As an example, Sparta, Athene and modern day Crete? form single province. So you can have a rax in Crete and produce all the units that rax unlocks back in the mainland, and vice versa.

This is cosmetic. The system only works this way because each province contains multiple cities, and those cities functionally act as one. This isn't equivalent to having a building in Nottingham in M2 and being able to spawn the same unit in London - those three cities amount to the equivalent of a single city in the past games. It's akin to the Empire system where a single province contains a core city and smaller villages in the area that can be used for building slots. In R2 as in all previous games, recruitment is at province level, all that's changed is what the province contains.

Just to balance things out so that I don't come off as someone who just can't find no faults with Rome 2... there are lot of things wrong with this game, one of such is that they really didn't do right is missile unit-siege balance, because right now siege units just kill units faster and better in field battles, as well as being able to break down walls. It's kinda ridiculous that ancient artillery perform better on field than the ones from Empire Total War's early game.

I got the "kill 1,000 men with siege engines" achievement the first time I used siege engines (2 ballistae, 2 scorpions), partly because the AI refused to move units away from the area I was bombarding. But yes, their kill rate is absurd.

Hmm, maybe I should stop with these kinds of analyses - I was quite coming to enjoy R2 but this discussion has me realising just how badly thought-out its core mechanics are...
 
Its not the combat units that bore me, cause im no fool: i know most units in Empire, Napoleon and even Medievall 2 are just minor tweaks from each other. I loved the combat cause it was clear: a general wouldnt rip through spear units like they did in medievall 2. Its the faction diversity that bore me. Especially cause every campaign would end in realm divide, leading to very similar campaigns.

Yes, the similarity of campaigns (not just realm divide, but the fact that the AI factions tend to do the same thing and die at the same time in most games, with the same ones becoming dominant) is a killer, I'll grant you.

I'm really not sure the factions were any less diverse than in most TW games, though - you have 8-10 factions, and they each have a focus on different unit types not so different from Medieval II ("gets good cavalry but poor spearmen"), and you do have the economic differences that you don't in older TW. They all play basically the same way, but this is true of all non-Maratha factions in Empire and in all factions in Medieval II.

EDIT: they launched an attack on a beach (with 26 men), i kill them all, and yet they still sail away on the campaign map. Thats really annoying

Yes, mine did the same thing. Autoresolving the battle seems the only reliable way to kill ships.

Stil dont get btw if the buildings (like temples and such) influence only the region or the whole province. Cause if its the first then it doesnt matter whether i build livestock in one regio and cattle trader in the next

The whole province. There are no resources that are handled at city level - everything (public order, wealth, culture, food and growth) are province level. Basically, think of the four cities in a province as one city that just look like four on the map. And no, it doesn't matter which town in a province you build what in.

EDIT: However, while this is true production-wise, it occurs that you may want to specialise in case you lose one of the cities. If your cattle trader isn't in the same place as your largest town, for instance, you may end up with a food deficit if the cattle trader's town is captured (but probably won't since you always seem to have a ridiculous excess of food).
 
http://www.ibtimes.com/total-war-rome-2-patch-1-patch-notes-released-1403136

First patch notes released - don't seem to contain AI improvements (I'm not sure what "improved AI use of walls in Athens map" entails - it doesn't use its walls in any siege defence. Are all Greek-style towns "Athens" on the battle map? If so that may fix the issue I had in the above screenshot).

Fixed slow turning rates for transport ships.

Hold on, these completely free ships are supposed to be more powerful than they are now?

• Fixed bug when ramming sideways into moving ship, which caused the ramming ship stick to target and strafe along with it in battles.

Encountered this one once, as I described above, so this is nice - but hardly the sort of major issue that needs addressing as a priority.

• Fix for cultural influence bonus from the Shrine of Neptune building

I hadn't noticed a problem with it. I only have one province with significant foreign culture, and Shrine of Neptune is my main culture building there.

Given the long list of bug fixes listed, and the fact that to my knowledge I've experienced one, perhaps two of those bugs, it seems I have been fortunate after all.
 
I deeply HATE the ******ed "magic transport" design decision. I had to say this.
 
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