RR7 -Big in Japan

[Silu]

I feel obliged to defend the AH choice since I claimed that to be textbook a few posts up As I saw it, the choices were AH, Pottery, Masonry and Mysticism, in that order. We want cities before the possible GLH, Pig (+possibly Horse) before Granaries, resources before border pops. That combined with the need to see military resources, AH seemed like a no-brainer. Also I thought we might even want to go Writing before Pottery and you need at least AH for that.

I'm very much guilty of loving granaries way too little... But I'm not sure why we're in a grave need for them here (even if I try ). Our happy cap doesn't appear to be growing anytime soon and most future cities have ample food and enough growing power without granaries.

I agree about the micro suggestions (that I didn't point out btw ), we will get the Settler in 7 turns including anarchy with a chop+whip.

About GLH or bunch of axe... Even I need to see the northern fog before speculating about that. We could go both if Washy doesn't have metal for example, or GLH+settling spree and wait for Cats or similar to off Washy. Or about half a dozen other approaches Something that speaks for GLH is the almost complete lack of good cottageable land and commerce resources.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

As it's me who's up I got it!

I'd change prod back to the warrior, grow to size 4 and perform a 2 pop whip for the settler.. Seems to be bit faster.. And we would gain a defender for the settler.. Let's scout the area around the copper to decide where to plant the city!

Techwise we can decide between masonry (for the quarry), pottery (for the ganaries) or myst (for the monument in our new city). As I'm not sure we'll need grans that fast I'd go myst next to start the monument as fast as possible.

 

[Silu]

^ The 2pop whip idea intrigued me, so I had mathboy crunch the numbers:

chop (without revolt) = 8 turns
1pop whip + chop = 7 turns
2pop whip = 9 turns, warrior
2pop whip + chop = 7 turns, warrior

Surprising, I too would have thought it was faster. It does give the second warrior quicker though which is very nice (at the cost of ~8 food, but more overflow as well)

 

[r_rolo1]

@Silu

Pigs? *scratch head* Do you really mean settling the the plains hill 2 E 1 N of the copper ( the only way of getting the pig and copper )? With no religion, monuments or libraries to pop borders vs a enemy cap? Without that , I don't see how to defend AH in here: no AH resource in cap BFC, no need for horses ....

I wanted a granary in the cap to be able to whip settlers and overflow to the GLH Without granary that is pretty much impossible in feasible time.

 

[Silu]

@Silu

Pigs? *scratch head* Do you really mean settling the the plains hill 2 E 1 N of the copper ( the only way of getting the pig and copper )? With no religion, monuments or libraries to pop borders vs a enemy cap? Without that , I don't see how to defend AH in here: no AH resource in cap BFC, no need for horses ....

I wanted a granary in the cap to be able to whip settlers and overflow to the GLH Without granary that is pretty much impossible in feasible time.

No, that's not what I mean, at the time of my original ponderings BW wasn't even done... But the pig city is going up soon (not first, but soon), sooner than I perceived we'd be wanting Granaries. Plus the benefit of seeing horsies. The Copper we definitely want in the first ring.

Overflowing settler whips into GLH is the only real application of Granary for a while I see here (working our 4 "good" tiles is a hard contender for straight up chain whipping with no wonders in the picture), and I didn't think of that at all Would have been quite viable had we gone Pottery here, now straight up hammers will be very probably better than "wasting" them on a Granary (and our beakers for Pottery) as well before the GLH itself; after all Granary is 30% of the GLH (or a bit under 25% of LH+GLH)

As pointed out by Thy_Spellcraft, Masonry could also have been better than AH for the earlier 1/3/3 BFC tile. I still don't think AH was that bad of a choice, though. I hate settling the 2nd city and 2 turns later noticing there's a wasted plains Horse in its 3rd ring.

EDIT: "no need for horse" assumes we actually get the Copper, Washy might have something to say about that

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, if Wash settles near the rice, I doubt that there will be space for a horse between us and them If we grab the copper there is no need for the horses, as you said So, AH as a safety valve is not a competitive option

Anyway we need to move fast and settle in a way to get copper and rice in the first ring, to ensure they will not flip easily ( especially the rice ).

 

[Silu]

There might be Horses, and they might be worth adjusting our settling pattern; I still think even just that wins the possibility of going Warr-Settler-Granary in capital. Yeah yeah, I'm whipping a dead Horse (pun intended!) and as a bonus the point was moot in the first place. BTW I also think that tech decision was not important at all, esp. with the leeway gained from popping techs. IMO none of the choices was/is considerably better than the others during the time it takes to get the others.

On that note a 2nd thought on actual topic, if we want we can go Pottery next while building a LH to grow with practically zero "harm" done to the Granary GLH Settler Whip Maneuver (or GGLHSWM for short) if we want to pull that off.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

As it seems everybody agrees about getting out a settler and escort as fast as possible.. So I'll do! And I'll scout the southern part of the copper to be able to make a better decision concerning the settling spot..

About tech: myst for monument seems to be out. So this leaves masonry or pottery. I'd still prefere masonry for the marble..

And another question: Do we rather want to send the worker together with settler and warrior to copper-city and build another one (speeded with the whip overflow) in Kyoto, or should we build him in copper-city?

 

[nocho]

Funny discussion going on here! I also fail to see why AH would be a major blunder, given we popped some techs and it's "only" monarch. Tend to agree with Silu that knowing whether and where we have horses never hurts. Maybe pottery first had its merits but don't think it's a game altering thing.

Don't know what kind of overflow we'll have after the 2-pop whip, but going for a second worker sounds good to me, while sending the first with the settler. In that case I'd rather go for pottery first, first of all to appease rolo , secondly our 2nd city can then start on a granary sooner (as it can't build a monument yet either), third, our cap will be size 2 at that moment so doesn't need the improved marble immediately. Besides, when the settler comes out the mine on the river-hill should be about to be done for a 3rd decent tile. So I'd say pott->mason->myst.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Finished my quiet 10-turn set.. Here what happened:

IT:
As purposed I changed production to a warrior and stoped farming the marble.

2680 BC:
AH in and I changed to pottery as well as I changed civic to slavery. Kyoto grew to size 4 and I changed prod to the settler. BTW: No horses nearby..

2600 BC:
Our scouting warrior killed a lion and got woodyII.

2560 BC:
2 pop whiped the settler. The overflow went into a worker.

2440 BC:
Whiped the worker as well for one pop.

2400 BC:
Hinu was found. And as we need to decide about the settling spot I finished here.

Our scouted lands so far:


And that's the spot I'd settle on:

I coose this one, 'cause I don't belive we'll keep the rice within the near future without taking washington.. So I'd rather take the cows!

 

[Silu]

Stacking whip anger with the Worker whip was a ballsy move, not sure I would have done that Could have been better to keep the higher growth rate and happy cap and make a bigger whip 10 turns later, maybe for the Granary or another Settler since Washy is putting us on a clock. Then again I'm usually too lenient with the whip...

I'm a bit torn about the Rice, we probably want to avoid capturing as many inland cities as we can to not trip over the dom limit. On that note we maybe should settle next to the Rice to ensure we get it without tackling Washington (the city ), will happen latest when our Sushi kicks in I'd say 1NE of the Copper, leaves room for a Cow city on the coast.

I guess Masonry is the next finally. It's about time we decide if we want to commit to a GLH plan. Lighthouse would be nice to have as well in the near future so I think we might as well give it a shot. If it fails and we get the Copper we can fall back on that as a backup plan and do our own version of Pearl Harbor with Axes.

 

[nocho]

If I'd see a save I would post a got it!

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Ohh... Will add the post as soon as I'm back home.. Sorry guys..

BTW: The main advantage settling my spot would be to get both cities connected without a road.. we only would need to scout the southern coastal fog to do!

 

[nocho]

Bwgh, crappy land we have roloed... I'm slightly torn on where to settle as well. If we're thinking of axe rushing Washington which would surely be a nice site to have and gives jumbos for happy and more possiblities for future military expeditions, then settling on that river may come in handy if that connects the bronze quickly to the capital. And the next city could go somewhere in between the rice and the pigs to make for a rather decent future production site. Depends though if there's sea food close to the pigs. Anyhow, I'm not too worried yet about capturing Washington regarding future domination limits, I think we need some decent cities first and there are not a whole lot of possibilities here.

If we settle NE of the copper to claim the rice, I would go mysticism before masonry as I figure we'll want a monument asap to keep hold of the rice as soon as Washington pops its borders again.

Regarding GLH, I guess it's that or using the hammers for a load of axes. I'm more inclined to the latter atm.

 

[Silu]

Oh yeah, Mysticism Definitely, if we settle near the Rice. BTW, the Rice spot needs just +1 road piece compared to the river spot to connect the Copper to capital Defending 1st ring against 3rd isn't that bad, though his borders will pop in 10 turns making it unavailable for a short while. Not to say I dislike the Cow spot, rolo just filled my head with nasty scenarios of resource-claiming hardship...

Esp with a head start on metal and being AGG, I don't think GLH and Axe havoc are mutually exclusive - might even be good to have him settle around some first, since we are not allowed to eliminate him. Biggest danger in that is to have him settle in crappy places and having to raze and spend the hammers on Settlers anyway Leaving just a single craptown for him is risky as well, as someone might come and eliminate him just for kicks before we start having control of the diplo situation.

Are we above choking and worker steals? That's certainly possible here as well (WM2!) if we're planning on Axing him some anyway, though I'm not sure if it's optimal

 

[r_rolo1]

No, we are not above chokes and worker steals. This is, besides the variant rules, a gloves off game after all

About going to thy city or to rice city ... well, to be honest, I prefer the red spot, mainly because i think we can do a decent prod city grabbing the rice and the pigs ( as soon as Wash culture is not a issue, that is ). Besides that, it also means less roading to link the metal...

About axing our neighbour vs GLH ... my gut feeling says to go axe, but that is just because of the safety aspect. I still need to see the dates of wonder falls to try to see if there is a Ind civ around to decide if it is feasible to make both a axe rush and a wonder at the same time.

Well, nocho already said that he would play as soon as thy gives us a save ( hey , I thought that only happened in pholkhero games ). Silu is on deck.

 

[nocho]

my gut feeling says to go axe

You're gut speaks wisely!

So will settle red/thy-spot. Guess barracks (agg so half priced anyway) in both cities and then *axeman in both for a while after bronze is up? New city maybe monument after myst somewhere? Chop everything in sight? No worries, only have 10 turns so won't be able to chop everything completely bare. New warrior will remove coastal fog.

nocho already said that he would play as soon as thy gives us a save

No, I said I'd post a got it! And then take all the time in the world! I've got a set to finish in another SG, hopefully can do this one tomorrow.

 

[Thy_Spellcraft]

Finally the save!

About rushing Wash or not: I've to agree to silu. Going for him within next couple of turns would make him an easier target for someone else.. So maybe heading staight towards monachy and oracling feud before going for him would provide the possebility to vassal him and save him from being killed by someone else..

 

[Silu]

To elaborate, I'm as much for some troutslapping as the next guy, but I think we could afford to wait just a bit; either let him settle some cities for us while building sth like GLH or settle a few more ourselves and then go after the guy.

We have time to steal Washy's visible worker if we'd like. The visible road on that tile seems to indicate it isn't roaded to his capital, preventing a counterattack... not 100% sure if that's reliable. WM2 dude could do that while KRIEGER EINS safeguards our copper city Would also give us a scout on his capital, maybe there's another Rice lurking (Speaking of which, Hannibal's capital has a Rice) But I'm not sure if all this is a good idea or not as it might put make him have just a single city for a while.

 

[Cam_H]

(Note to roster - I'm out of action Civ-wise for the next few days. Please proceed without me, and I'll let you know when I'm back in the saddle).