Scandinavians/Norsemen/Vikings/Danes... Time to clear this up once and for all.

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First of all, I don't really see us agreeing on this anytime soon. Let's just agree to disagree here and call it a day.

[snip]

Regarding your other points about the Germans supporting Finland, firstly I'm starting to get slightly irritated with these guilt-trips you keep dropping("Most Finns are a bit less grateful to the Germans for their "help" than you appear to be", "I am sure the Swedish volunteers who died for Finland in that war would have been charmed by your appreciation of their sacrifice"). The fact is that Germany supported Finland in the war of independence and in WWII. The Nazis screwed up their invasion of Russia and Finland was forced to drive them out. I don't appreciate them burning down Lapland but I can understand that suddenly breaking up an alliance and telling them to get out can get people a little upset(especially considering the epic trickery pulled off by president Ryti).

You are remarkably forgiving about the fact that in 1939-40, during the first war between the Soviet Union and Finland, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were buddies and Nazi Germany had agreed to the planned Soviet occupation of Finland. You even seem to regret that the Nazis lost WWII. Given that, I quite agree that we won't get any further in this discussion.
 
Don't know if the are unusual in your eyes, but the movement does exist:
http://www.danskskaanskforening.dk/ramme.htm

I was invited to one of their rallies some years back at 'Skåneländska Flaggans Dag' outside Malmø. There were at least a couple of hundred people there.

My impression was that even though the phrase 'Skåne hem til Danmark' was uttered many times, the general idea was to celebrate the shared culture and educate people to the fact that Skåne was Danish once. I doubt they actually literally want to be part of Denmark again (even though the beer would be cheaper ;) ).

One elderly school teacher there told me that when he was a child, he learned in school that Skåne was a part of Sweden and had been conquered by Denmark under Christian I and then 'liberated' in 1658 by Carl X Gustav... Luckily, as far as I have gathered, children in Scanian schools are now learning the truth. Skåne was always Danish and was conquered by Sweden in 1658.

Well, as a bona fide Skåning I can assure you that people in Skåne do not wish to get "reunited" with Denmark. A couple of hundred oddballs holding a meeting don't change that.

As for "Skåne was always Danish", it should be noted that it was minding its own affairs, under its own kings, until it was conquered by Denmark in the 8th century. It seems that from the 9th century onwards, they regarded themselves as Danes. This may seem nitpicking, but I'd like to round off the picture a bit.
 
Fair enough. So how about we agree that as far back as 'Denmark' has existed, Skåne has been part of it? How does that sound?
 
This thread has more historical inaccuracies than there are birds in the sky, and to comment on all would take days, but I feel I at least have to comment on the OP...
The word 'Scandinavia' arose in the late Middle Ages. At this time (several hundred years AFTER the Viking Era), the largest university in the present Scandinavian area was the University of Lund (present day Southern Sweden). In those days, the southern tip of present-day Sweden was Danish. This area is still known as 'Skåne' (Scania in English). For many scholars in Lund (and other places), Lund was the centre of knowledge in the area and students came from all of Scandinavia to study here.
Anyway... The scholars of Lund mapped out the area of Denmark, Norway and Sweden (due to the similar languages and cultures) and called the area 'Skaana Aua', meaning 'The Scanian Island' (Lund, of course, being situated in Scania).
The term 'island' is not to be taken literally, but rather understood as 'an island of knowledge' in the dark world... People liked themselves a lot back then...
'Scandinavia' is obviously a Latin variation of 'Skaana Aua'.

So the term 'Scandinavian' did not arise until many years after the Viking Age. It was not even used in Scandinavia itself, as the term was a decadent, academic phrase used by high-and-mighty professors.
The term Scandinavia is believed to derive from the germanic root *Skaðin-awjō meaning "danger" or "damage" (English, scathing/unscathed, German, Schade/beschädigen) and *awjo meaning "island". The meaning is of course uncertain, as is what it refers to, but very few (no more than one person?) would suggest that the term was invented by danish scholars in the late middle-ages, especially considering that Scandinavia appears in many works from the first millennia. For example does Pliny the Elder's writings from the first century mention Scatinavia and Scandiae, as does Ptolemaios's from the second century. Other forms like Codanovia, Scandza, Scandanan, Scatenauge, Scadinavia and Sconaowe, can be found in texts by Pomponius Mela, Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus to name few. The oldest Scandinavian sources use the term the northern lands (Norðrlöndum) a term still in usage in Iceland today, wich leads us to the next subject;
The term ‘Norsemen’ is a phrase that has existed since the Iron Age and is a word that was used mainly by English and French monks who were harassed by raiders from Norway and Denmark. The meaning is simply ‘men from the North’ and is of course a reference to all ‘Viking’ raiders or people from what is now known as Scandinavia. The thing to remember here is that this term was only used by OTHER cultures, never the actual people themselves. The term later evolved into ‘Normans’, as the area of Normandy was named after the ‘Norsemen’ who invaded the area and settled there. The Normans did indeed take the name for themselves, but this was much later. At this point, they no longer considered themselves of the same culture as their ancestors (William the Conqueror’s grandfather, Rollo, was from Faxe in Denmark and was the chief who conquered the area later known as Normandy).

So the term ‘Norsemen’ was not used by the people themselves, but was a term used by others. It was considered an ‘evil’ word. In a version of The Lord’s Prayer found in England, dating from the 9th Century, the line “Deliver us from evil” is actually phrased “Deliver us from the Norsemen”.

So using the term ‘Norsemen’ is as wrong as using the word ‘Barbarians’.
"The northern lands" and "northmen" (refering to all Scandinavians) are in frequent use in the sagas. Granted, they are medieval and not contemporary viking-age sources, but I am inclined to think that our forefathers did not suddenly begin using a foreign "evil" name to describe themselves but rather used a very natural depiction as being men of the north just as we do today.
If there exists a contemporary source it would be a runestone inscription. There are archives with all known inscriptions wich someone with interest and patience could search trough. Perhaps there will be an opportunity to get back on the subject later.
This is without a doubt one of the greatest misunderstandings in the history of language. The term ‘Viking’ was indeed used by the people themselves, and it is definitely the most recognisable of all the phrases.
However, the word ‘Viking’ is not a noun; it is a ‘verb’!
‘Viking’ was not something you were, but rather something you DID!
In many of the Icelandic Sagas, this word appears, but always in contexts like this:

”Han samlede en hær og drog i viking.” = “He raised an army and went viking.”

‘To go viking’, can roughly be translated as ‘to go plundering’ or ‘pirating’.

So using the term ‘Viking’ is actually as wrong as calling them ‘The Killings’ or ‘The Fightings’.
As has been pointed out before in this thread "Viking" is used also as a name and as a noun. In the Landnámabók for example you can read "Flóki Vilgerðarson hét maður; hann var víkingur mikill" (There was a man called Flóki Vilgerðarson; he was a great viking). In fact you can argue weather it is really used as a verb at all; the saying is "Att fara i viking" - to go in viking, where the verb is "to go".
The term ‘Danes’ dates back to Roman times and is the name of the tribe of people who lived in present-day Denmark and Norway (as well as southern Sweden). The first time the ‘Danes’ are mentioned is in accounts of the barbarian raids on Rome in the 5th century. There are also accounts of the ‘Kimbrer’ tribe that were a break-off tribe of the ‘Dani’ in earlier centuries, who wreaked havoc throughout Europe.

The term ‘Denmark’ is first mentioned in Frankish texts from the early 8th century and describes the area of present day Denmark, Norway, Iceland and southern Sweden. It means ‘The borderland of the Danes’
Iceland was "discovered" by Scandinavians in the 9th century. Some Irish monks is said to have lived there before in shorter duration seeking solitude. The island was however not under danish rule until the entire norwegian crown was in the Kalmar union. As for Norway being a part of Denmark during the end of the Scandinavian iron-age (the viking-era), there was a continuous struggle between different kings trying to lay all northern lands under their own rule, so from time to time control over different lands shifted between the kings of Denmark, Norway and Sweden meaning Denmark too was subject for conquest. This was however a powerstruggle between rich/noble families and probably ment very little for the common people.
The term ‘Norway’ comes from the present-day word ‘Norge’, which again comes from the term ‘Nord Rige’ or ‘Nord Rike’ which means ‘The Realm to the North’.
Well, to be precise, the term "Norway" comes from "Norðrvegr" refering to the (at the time only possible) sailingroute north at Karmøy on the west coast.
‘Sweden’ is actually called ‘Sverige’, which comes from ‘Svea Rige’ or ‘Svea Rike’, which means ‘The Realm of Svea’. There is debate in historical circles as to whether ‘Svea’ was a man or a people, but the legends say that he was the brother of a Danish king ‘Dan’ who settled his own land to the east. The historical facts of this are doubtful.
What legends are that? And what historical circles are considering Svea (a modern female name) to have been a historical man?

Svea rige means "the realm of sve", and sve (or sue) is believed to mean "us" or "our own" and deriving from a proto-germanic *Swihoniz or *Sweoniz.
Throughout Western Europe, the term ‘Danes’ was universally used to describe the raiders from Denmark and Norway. By the 10th century the Danes were feared throughout Europe.[...]To understand why the Norwegians were not distinguished from the Danes, one must understand the cultural links between the two.
It has to do with proximity. The Danes, living closest to England and France, gave name to all northmen, Swedes as well. For a while old norse also went under the name "danish tounge". It's a common phenomenon, the Finnish name for Germany, for example, is Saksland deriving from the Saxons.
Denmark and Norway have historically always been linked. Of the three Scandinavian languages, Danish and Norwegian are by far the most similar – Swedish is considerably different.
This is of course a matter of opinion and the subject has been brought up earlier in the thread where the terms west scandinavian (norwegian, icelandic and faeroese) and east scandinavian dialects (danish and swedish) has been pointed out, but I would like to stress the fact that the distinction of danish, swedish and norwegian as being different languages comes from us having several parliaments, all running their own languagepolicies.
Norway was part of the Danish kingdom throughout the Viking era and all the way up until the early 19th century, where it was taken over by Sweden. During the Viking era, Norway had its own vassal kings that often were in conflict with Danish kings, the most powerful of these was Harald Harderaade, who challenged Denmark on several occasions and who even tried to take over England after the Danes left. In the 14th century the final Norwegian royal bloodline died out and Norway was effectively a part of Denmark. In 1814 Norway came under Swedish rule (due to years of Danish stupidity).
In 1905 Norway finally became independent and offered the crown to the Danish prince Carl, who took the name Haakon. The fact that they gave the crown to a Danish prince is also proof of the feeling of unity between the two countries.

If we go back to the Viking era again and take a look at the Swedes, their focus was much different than that of the Danes. Where the Danes engaged Western Europe, the Swedes looked East and set up immense trade routes along the rivers of Russia and managed to reach the Caspian Sea and beyond. They founded Kiev and other cities along the rivers and were great merchants and traders, unlike any the world had seen. They were, however, not a people of raiders in the same sense as the Danes were, and the shear impact they had on Europe could not match that of the Danes.
While I don't think they actually founded any cities, they did establish a dynasty that governed Novgorod, Kiev and many other cities and surrounding areas for a couple of centuries. Snorri speaks of the area as "greater Sweden" wich could be a remnant of the rulers originally being taxsubjects to the Swedish king. A majority of the northmen traveling eastward were Swedes but there were Danes and Norwegians there too just as many Swedes traveled westward together with Norwegians and Danes. Remember this, it's important when it comes to the debate whether it's could be considered historically correct or not having a common norse/scandinavian civ in the game.
Centuries later, the three countries were in a union for a while known as the Kalmar Union, but this was more of a mutual protection pact and an economic union than anything else. The Swedes hated it and eventually left the union, feeling that the Danes were calling too many shots. The Swedes later rose to become a huge power in Europe, almost annihilating Denmark in devastating wars.

So if we are to speak of the ‘Viking’ civilization, it is foolish and lazy to throw them all together into one, especially when one takes into account the rivalry between Denmark and Sweden.

Denmark and Sweden are in fact the two countries in the world that have been at war most times. Since the Viking era, the two nations have been at war 29 times – every single time, Norway has fought on the Danish side.
As I stated above the attempts of bringing all northern lands under one ruler began during the scandinavian iron age, and it continued during the medieval era until the cunning Margaret managed to bring all crowns together in a personal union with the monarch situated in Copenhagen. The Kalmar union was certainly much more than a defense pact and one great ambition was to stem the influence of the (german) Hanseatic League. Unfortunately Margaret's successors weren't as competent as her and eventually german influence grew within the king's administration, something wich upset especially the swedish noblemen who were set aside, not to mention the commoners who had little interest in being taxed by german tax collectors. The union came to an end in the 16th century but the notion of a united Scandinavia did not and with Sweden's growing power came increasing attempts to achieve unification (this time with Stockholm as the capital city) through conquest.

What I want to point out here is the fact that despite all wars fought between Sweden and Denmark we still consider ourselves brothers and sisters (well, most of us do anyway) while Russia and it's predecessors, adversaries since the early middle-ages are generally not at all held in high regard. So the number of wars is not a determination of any difference in culture as some posts in this thread is trying to indicate.
Another interesting thing worth mentioning is the Jelling Stone. This is a large finely engraved stone (well, two stones actually) put up around 965 AD in Jelling, Denmark by Harald Blaatand (sometimes translated as 'Bluetooth' but actually meaning 'Blue King' - Tand = Thane = King)[...]
That alternative translation is very interesting indeed! Any more information about it?
My conclusion is, that if it is to be remotely historically accurate, the ‘Viking’ civilization in the Civ games should be the ‘Danish Empire’, led by Knud den Store (Canute the Great).
Sweden should also be represented as a seperate Civ, only as the immense economic and military powerhouse they were throughout the 16th and 17th centuries.

And that’s all I have to say about that. Let’s hear what you all think. :)
Well, everything is modable I suppose, but I'm certain that Firaxis will never include two Scandinavian states in the game, so the question is rather if this one Scandinavian civilisation should have emphasis on the iron age and a citylist including Jelling, Birka, Skiringssal etc or if it should represent Scandinavia up to modern days having a citylist beginning with later and greater places like Copenhagen, Stockholm and Oslo.
 
Fair enough. So how about we agree that as far back as 'Denmark' has existed, Skåne has been part of it? How does that sound?

This is a bit nitpicking, but Denmark existed for some centuries before it conquered Skåne. There can be no doubt that some generations after the conquest, the Skåningar perceioved themselves as Danes, and that te swedes ahd ltos of trouble turnign them into Swedes. They used some rather ruthless methods to accomplish that.
 
This thread has more historical inaccuracies than there are birds in the sky, and to comment on all would take days, but I feel I at least have to comment on the OP...The term Scandinavia is believed to derive from the germanic root *Skaðin-awjō meaning "danger" or "damage" (English, scathing/unscathed, German, Schade/beschädigen) and *awjo meaning "island". The meaning is of course uncertain, as is what it refers to, but very few (no more than one person?) would suggest that the term was invented by danish scholars in the late middle-ages, especially considering that Scandinavia appears in many works from the first millennia. For example does Pliny the Elder's writings from the first century mention Scatinavia and Scandiae, as does Ptolemaios's from the second century. Other forms like Codanovia, Scandza, Scandanan, Scatenauge, Scadinavia and Sconaowe, can be found in texts by Pomponius Mela, Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus to name few. The oldest Scandinavian sources use the term the northern lands (Norðrlöndum) a term still in usage in Iceland today, wich leads us to the next subject;"The northern lands" and "northmen" (refering to all Scandinavians) are in frequent use in the sagas. Granted, they are medieval and not contemporary viking-age sources, but I am inclined to think that our forefathers did not suddenly begin using a foreign "evil" name to describe themselves but rather used a very natural depiction as being men of the north just as we do today.
If there exists a contemporary source it would be a runestone inscription. There are archives with all known inscriptions wich someone with interest and patience could search trough. Perhaps there will be an opportunity to get back on the subject later.As has been pointed out before in this thread "Viking" is used also as a name and as a noun. In the Landnámabók for example you can read "Flóki Vilgerðarson hét maður; hann var víkingur mikill" (There was a man called Flóki Vilgerðarson; he was a great viking). In fact you can argue weather it is really used as a verb at all; the saying is "Att fara i viking" - to go in viking, where the verb is "to go".Iceland was "discovered" by Scandinavians in the 9th century. Some Irish monks is said to have lived there before in shorter duration seeking solitude. The island was however not under danish rule until the entire norwegian crown was in the Kalmar union. As for Norway being a part of Denmark during the end of the Scandinavian iron-age (the viking-era), there was a continuous struggle between different kings trying to lay all northern lands under their own rule, so from time to time control over different lands shifted between the kings of Denmark, Norway and Sweden meaning Denmark too was subject for conquest. This was however a powerstruggle between rich/noble families and probably ment very little for the common people.Well, to be precise, the term "Norway" comes from "Norðrvegr" refering to the (at the time only possible) sailingroute north at Karmøy on the west coast.What legends are that? And what historical circles are considering Svea (a modern female name) to have been a historical man?

Svea rige means "the realm of sve", and sve (or sue) is believed to mean "us" or "our own" and deriving from a proto-germanic *Swihoniz or *Sweoniz.
It has to do with proximity. The Danes, living closest to England and France, gave name to all northmen, Swedes as well. For a while old norse also went under the name "danish tounge". It's a common phenomenon, the Finnish name for Germany, for example, is Saksland deriving from the Saxons.
This is of course a matter of opinion and the subject has been brought up earlier in the thread where the terms west scandinavian (norwegian, icelandic and faeroese) and east scandinavian dialects (danish and swedish) has been pointed out, but I would like to stress the fact that the distinction of danish, swedish and norwegian as being different languages comes from us having several parliaments, all running their own languagepolicies.While I don't think they actually founded any cities, they did establish a dynasty that governed Novgorod, Kiev and many other cities and surrounding areas for a couple of centuries. Snorri speaks of the area as "greater Sweden" wich could be a remnant of the rulers originally being taxsubjects to the Swedish king. A majority of the northmen traveling eastward were Swedes but there were Danes and Norwegians there too just as many Swedes traveled westward together with Norwegians and Danes. Remember this, it's important when it comes to the debate whether it's could be considered historically correct or not having a common norse/scandinavian civ in the game.As I stated above the attempts of bringing all northern lands under one ruler began during the scandinavian iron age, and it continued during the medieval era until the cunning Margaret managed to bring all crowns together in a personal union with the monarch situated in Copenhagen. The Kalmar union was certainly much more than a defense pact and one great ambition was to stem the influence of the (german) Hanseatic League. Unfortunately Margaret's successors weren't as competent as her and eventually german influence grew within the king's administration, something wich upset especially the swedish noblemen who were set aside, not to mention the commoners who had little interest in being taxed by german tax collectors. The union came to an end in the 16th century but the notion of a united Scandinavia did not and with Sweden's growing power came increasing attempts to achieve unification (this time with Stockholm as the capital city) through conquest.

What I want to point out here is the fact that despite all wars fought between Sweden and Denmark we still consider ourselves brothers and sisters (well, most of us do anyway) while Russia and it's predecessors, adversaries since the early middle-ages are generally not at all held in high regard. So the number of wars is not a determination of any difference in culture as some posts in this thread is trying to indicate.That alternative translation is very interesting indeed! Any more information about it?Well, everything is modable I suppose, but I'm certain that Firaxis will never include two Scandinavian states in the game, so the question is rather if this one Scandinavian civilisation should have emphasis on the iron age and a citylist including Jelling, Birka, Skiringssal etc or if it should represent Scandinavia up to modern days having a citylist beginning with later and greater places like Copenhagen, Stockholm and Oslo.

Just a few minor things here:

1. The university of Lund in Skåne/Scania was founded by Sweden in 1668, after the Swedish conquest of Scania.
2. "Viking" was, in fact, a noun meaning "sea-rover", though its etymology is still a matter of debate. See, for example, "The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology" or Elof Hellquist: "Svensk etymologisk ordbok".
3. The Norsemen (which means Scandinavians, *not* "Norwegians") did found some citites. For example Aldeigjuborg (now called Staraya Ladoga) in Russia and Dublin on Ireland.
4. The Finnish name for Germany is Saksa, not Saksland.
 
Well, Öjevind Lång, I must say I find your reply somewhat odd... was it really an answer to my post?

1. I never made any claims regarding the university of Lund.
2. Exactly my point; Viking is most definitely a noun, and most likely not used as a verb.
3. I've never used the term norsemen in any other regard. When it comes to whether they "founded" the cities or not it is a question of definition. Dublin, for example, existed as a village before it became a town under the Scandinavians.
4. Here, on the other hand, I stand corrected. The Finnish name for Germany is Saksa and nothing else. Saksland (or Saxland) is the norse name for the northern German region.
 
While I'm at it, I thought I'd jump into the Scania-debate as well...

If we are to believe the sagas, Scania shifted many times between being an independent chiefdom or petty kingdom, and being a part of Denmark or Sweden. In return, the Scanian king Ivar Widefathom, the sagas say, conquered both Denmark and Sweden, so with tongue in cheek you could say that at one time a large part of Scandinavia was Scanian.

Scania was eventually tied more permanently to the Danish realm during Harald Bluetooth's rule sometime in the 970's. It was he who moved trade from the pagan stronghold Uppåkra to the village of Lund where he began building a town. Lund, by the way, means "[sacred] grove" and not London :lol: .

Other notable periods:

1042-1047 Denmark (with Scania) is ruled by the Norwegian king Magnus Gode.

1329 Scania is pawned by king Christopher II to count Johan III of Holstein-Plön.

1332 Swedish king Magnus Eriksson buys Scania from the count for 34 000 silvermarks.
Henceforth King Magnus will call himself king of the realms Sweden and Norway and the
land of Scania.

1343 Danish king Valdemar Atterdag confirms Swedish ownership in treaty.

1360 King Valdemar conquers Scania from Swedish king Magnus and Magnus' son Håkon,
who now is king of Norway.
Spoiler :
In 1363 Valdemar's daughter Margarete was married to
Magnus's son king Håkon. A couple of decades later, a period including a
powerstruggle with the Swedish nobility, a war with the Mecklenburgers and the
premature deaths of King Håkan as well as his and Margarete's son Olof, we find
queen Margarete heading all of Scandinavia.

1524 Newly elected Swedish king Gustav Vasa resign claims for Scania in peace treaty.

1658 Scania becomes Swedish with the Roskilde peace treaty.
 
While I'm at it, I thought I'd jump into the Scania-debate as well...

If we are to believe the sagas, Scania shifted many times between being an independent chiefdom or petty kingdom, and being a part of Denmark or Sweden. In return, the Scanian king Ivar Widefathom, the sagas say, conquered both Denmark and Sweden, so with tongue in cheek you could say that at one time a large part of Scandinavia was Scanian.

Scania was eventually tied more permanently to the Danish realm during Harald Bluetooth's rule sometime in the 970's. It was he who moved trade from the pagan stronghold Uppåkra to the village of Lund where he began building a town. Lund, by the way, means "[sacred] grove" and not London :lol: .

Other notable periods:

1042-1047 Denmark (with Scania) is ruled by the Norwegian king Magnus Gode.

1329 Scania is pawned by king Christopher II to count Johan III of Holstein-Plön.

1332 Swedish king Magnus Eriksson buys Scania from the count for 34 000 silvermarks.
Henceforth King Magnus will call himself king of the realms Sweden and Norway and the
land of Scania.

1343 Danish king Valdemar Atterdag confirms Swedish ownership in treaty.

1360 King Valdemar conquers Scania from Swedish king Magnus and Magnus' son Håkon,
who now is king of Norway.
Spoiler :
In 1363 Valdemar's daughter Margarete was married to
Magnus's son king Håkon. A couple of decades later, a period including a
powerstruggle with the Swedish nobility, a war with the Mecklenburgers and the
premature deaths of King Håkan as well as his and Margarete's son Olof, we find
queen Margarete heading all of Scandinavia.

1524 Newly elected Swedish king Gustav Vasa resign claims for Scania in peace treaty.

1658 Scania becomes Swedish with the Roskilde peace treaty.
That's interesting. I guess Skåne was even more contested than I imagined, not that I claimed anything contrary, but I accepted Danish sovereignty over Skåne for 700 uninterrupted years which wasn't correct. It just shows that all things on internet has to be checked up before being accepted.


Given the shifting balance of power and frailty of the Scandinavian countries, I don't see any of them as being close to representing a civilization in Civ by itself. A Scandinavian civ is the best option.
 
That's interesting. I guess Skåne was even more contested than I imagined, not that I claimed anything contrary, but I accepted Danish sovereignty over Skåne for 700 uninterrupted years which wasn't correct. It just shows that all things on internet has to be checked up before being accepted.


Given the shifting balance of power and frailty of the Scandinavian countries, I don't see any of them as being close to representing a civilization in Civ by itself. A Scandinavian civ is the best option.

Scania was conquered by Denmark in the 8th century and remained Danish for almost a millennium. The fact that some Norwegian king ruled Denmark (of which Scania was part) for a brief period during the Viking Age, that the province was pawned to a German prince for a time and that "the land of Skåne" was ruled by Magnus Eriksson, who also styled himself king of Norway and Sweden, does not change the fact that Scania was Danish, and perceived itself as Danish, all the way to the Swedish conquest in 1658. For longer than that, actually. It took some pretty ruthless suppression by the Swedish crown before the Scanians resigned themselves to now being part of Sweden.

I agree about a Scandinavian civ being the best option.
 
Scania was eventually tied more permanently to the Danish realm during Harald Bluetooth's rule sometime in the 970's. It was he who moved trade from the pagan stronghold Uppåkra to the village of Lund where he began building a town. Lund, by the way, means "[sacred] grove" and not London :lol: .

Wrong. Although the town itself did exist before (under an unknown name), it was Canute the Great who founded Lund as a merchant town. He named it LVND DENEMAC (LVND was exactly the way London was spelt by Danes in this time) 'London of Denmark'. This is seen on coins and maps from the time. Canute's goal was to create a sister-city to London in Denmark.
So it was not Harald who founded Lund as the city it came to be, but Canute, and the name does mean 'London'.


Öjevind Lång;8740177 said:
Scania was conquered by Denmark in the 8th century and remained Danish for almost a millennium. The fact that some Norwegian king ruled Denmark (of which Scania was part) for a brief period during the Viking Age, that the province was pawned to a German prince for a time and that "the land of Skåne" was ruled by Magnus Eriksson, who also styled himself king of Norway and Sweden, does not change the fact that Scania was Danish, and perceived itself as Danish, all the way to the Swedish conquest in 1658.

Although I agree with you on virtually everything here (hey, there's a first time for everything ;) ), I still have a problem with the whole 'Skåne was conquered by Denmark' part.

Firstly, you would have to have 'Denmark' as an identity without Skåne. What did that consist of? Nations as they exist today did not exist in those times, and seeing as Skåne is mentioned as being part of Denmark before Jutland was, 'Denmark' would have to consist of Sjælland and a few other islands.

Secondly, who was it conquered from? Was it independent? Who was king of Skåne? The people of Skåne were virtually the same as the people of Sjælland. They were geographically much closer to each other than they were with the tribes of Sweden.

Skåne was a part of Denmark from the 'beginning' (I know it is a silly term, but I can't really think of a better one). To say that Skåne was 'conquered' by Denmark is simply wrong.
 
Öjevind Lång;8740177 said:
Scania was conquered by Denmark in the 8th century and remained Danish for almost a millennium. The fact that some Norwegian king ruled Denmark (of which Scania was part) for a brief period during the Viking Age, that the province was pawned to a German prince for a time and that "the land of Skåne" was ruled by Magnus Eriksson, who also styled himself king of Norway and Sweden, does not change the fact that Scania was Danish, and perceived itself as Danish, all the way to the Swedish conquest in 1658. For longer than that, actually. It took some pretty ruthless suppression by the Swedish crown before the Scanians resigned themselves to now being part of Sweden.

I agree about a Scandinavian civ being the best option.
First of all - I'm not sure what your argument against my post is about. Is it whether Skåne was under Danish control for 700 uninterrupted years, or not?
Secondly, I have to wonder if and how Skåne became Danish at the moment it was "conquered" in the 8th century.

There seems to be a bit of inconsistency in your use of "being Danish".
 
Wrong. Although the town itself did exist before (under an unknown name), it was Canute the Great who founded Lund as a merchant town. He named it LVND DENEMAC (LVND was exactly the way London was spelt by Danes in this time) 'London of Denmark'. This is seen on coins and maps from the time. Canute's goal was to create a sister-city to London in Denmark.
So it was not Harald who founded Lund as the city it came to be, but Canute, and the name does mean 'London'.

Although I agree with you on virtually everything here (hey, there's a first time for everything ;) ), I still have a problem with the whole 'Skåne was conquered by Denmark' part.

Firstly, you would have to have 'Denmark' as an identity without Skåne. What did that consist of? Nations as they exist today did not exist in those times, and seeing as Skåne is mentioned as being part of Denmark before Jutland was, 'Denmark' would have to consist of Sjælland and a few other islands.

Secondly, who was it conquered from? Was it independent? Who was king of Skåne? The people of Skåne were virtually the same as the people of Sjælland. They were geographically much closer to each other than they were with the tribes of Sweden.

Skåne was a part of Denmark from the 'beginning' (I know it is a silly term, but I can't really think of a better one). To say that Skåne was 'conquered' by Denmark is simply wrong.

Well, these are piffling things. Still:

1. "Lund" was and still is the Scandiavian word for "grove", and it is fairly generally acknowledged that Lund started as a sacred grove where people went to sacrifice to the pagan gods. That's why the Christians built a cathedral there. (And that's why it was called Lund from the beginning; the previous political centre of Uppåkra was further south.) It was traditional church policy to make old centres of pagan worship into centres of Christian worship, for obvious reasons. That Canute chose to call Lund (in Scania) by a different name than London (in England) in Latin (Lundinium Gothorum as opposed to Londinium Anglorum) is just because his Latin scribes wanted to establish clarity. The name emphatically is not a Scandinavian version of the English London. Here, all you need is a good and not too antique etymological handbook .

2. Before Scania was conquered by the Danes it was not Danish. First it was made up of various little principalites. Then, some time prior to the conquest, it had started to coalesce into a little kingdom of its own; all the minor Scanian principalities sent delegates to a common "thing" (assembly). It was not Danish before the Danish conquest, and it took a century or so after the conquest before it felt itself etirely comfortable as part of the kingdom of Denmark.

3. If the people of Skåne were "virtually the same peopel as the people of Sjælland in denmark, they were also virtually the same people as the pople of the old Swedish province of Småland. That is to tay, that they were all Scandianvians with relatively small dialectal differnces in those days.

4. You are right, before the acqquistion of Scania, Denmark only consisted of Sjælland, Fyen, the peninsula of Jutland and some minor islands. What of it?

At the risk of sounding stroppy, let me point out that I am a native born and bred of the city of Lund in the province of Scania or Skåne, and that history was my chief subject when I took my B. A. at the university of Lund.
 
Öjevind Lång;8743196 said:
1. "Lund" was and still is the Scandiavian word for "grove", and it is fairly generally acknowledged that Lund started as a sacred grove where people went to sacrifice to the pagan gods. That's why the Christians built a cathedral there. (And that's why it was called Lund from the beginning; the previous political centre of Uppåkra was further south.) It was traditional church policy to make old centres of pagan worship into centres of Christian worship, for obvious reasons. That Canute chose to call Lund (in Scania) by a different name than London (in England) in Latin (Lundinium Gothorum as opposed to Londinium Anglorum) is just because his Latin scribes wanted to establish clarity. The name emphatically is not a Scandinavian version of the English London. Here, all you need is a good and not too antique etymological handbook .

Fair enough. I don't see that the two claims contradict each other. It is historical fact that Canute called Lund 'Lvnd Denemac' and London 'Lvnd', but that could simply coincide with Lund already having the name to begin with.

2. Before Scania was conquered by the Danes it was not Danish. First it was made up of various little principalites. Then, some time prior to the conquest, it had started to coalesce into a little kingdom of its own; all the minor Scanian principalities sent delegates to a common "thing" (assembly). It was not Danish before the Danish conquest, and it took a century or so after the conquest before it felt itself etirely comfortable as part of the kingdom of Denmark.

What Danish conquest? When did this conquest take place? Who was the 'Danish' king/chief who 'conquered' Skåne? Who was leader of Skåne?
I would love to know what facts you have to base this on. I have never heard of a collective Danish conquest of Skåne.

3. If the people of Skåne were "virtually the same peopel as the people of Sjælland in denmark, they were also virtually the same people as the pople of the old Swedish province of Småland. That is to tay, that they were all Scandianvians with relatively small dialectal differnces in those days.

Indeed they were. But geographically, the area of Northern Skåneland was covered with thick forest in those times and contact with people from Sjælland (who migrated from Skåne to begin with) would have been more common than people from Småland.

4. You are right, before the acqquistion of Scania, Denmark only consisted of Sjælland, Fyen, the peninsula of Jutland and some minor islands. What of it?

Nope. Skåne was a part of Denmark before Jutland was. In the Iron Age, the Jutes were a people of their own, fighting many wars with neighbouring tribes. So this 'conquest' of Skåne was carried out by the king of... what exactly?

Saying that Skåne was 'conquered' by Denmark, is like saying Mercia was 'conquered' by England. Mercia (and all other ancient English chiefdoms) was independent for many years, but was a part of 'England' for as long as 'England' has existed.
The same is true for Skåne. Back when Skåne (and Sjælland and Jutland for that matter) were independent chiefdoms under independent chiefs, the concept of countries didn't exist.
So I still say that it is wrong that Skåne 'became a part of Denmark'. You might even say that the original Danes WERE from Skåne. And that Skåne 'merged' with Sjælland and the islands - thus giving birth to what we might call Denmark.

At the risk of sounding stroppy, let me point out that I am a native born and bred of the city of Lund in the province of Scania or Skåne, and that history was my chief subject when I took my B. A. at the university of Lund.

I also have a BA in History from Aarhus University. The great thing about history is that people can have these discussions. :) Debate is a great thing.

Let me just say, by the way, that I am very happy about this whole debate. I have taken many of my original points up to new consideration based on what I have discussed with you guys, and realise that there is more to this than black/white truth.

There has been a few not so pretty posts in this thread (from myself included), and I believe that has to do with the lack of meaning and potential misunderstandings that can be put forth in writing.
Let me say now, that I do not mean any offense in any of my posts and that I am writing in good spirit.

I hope this discussion can continue, and I hope we all can get a more broad perspective on the whole subject. :)
 
Saying that Skåne was 'conquered' by Denmark, is like saying Mercia was 'conquered' by England.

No. Saying that Skåne was conquered by Denmark is like saying Gotland was conquered by Sweden, or that Prussia was conquered by Brandenburg. In other words, that something which had never belonged to Denmark or Sweden or Brandenburg was made part of Denmark or Sweden or Brandenburg. You are projecting 9th century Denmark backwards in time to contain that which was not and never had been part of Denmark before the Danish conquest - as if Skåne always had belonged to Denmark in some kind of Platonic sense. Who ruled Dennark at the time of the Danish conquest of Skåne is of secondary importance. I take it you don't deny that Skåne was forcibly annexed to Denmark by a Danish invasion? And, as I have said in a previous post, before the Danish conquest Skåne was partitioned into different principalities, but they had evolved a sense of regional common identity and had started to send representatives to a common Scanian *thing*, or parliament.
 
Öjevind Lång;8745171 said:
No. Saying that Skåne was conquered by Denmark is like saying Gotland was conquered by Sweden, or that Prussia was conquered by Brandenburg. In other words, that something which had never belonged to Denmark or Sweden or Brandenburg was made part of Denmark or Sweden or Brandenburg.

I am certainly no historian, but I am currently reading a book on 400 years of Prussian history. To say Prussia was conquered by Brandenburg would be very odd. Brandenburg was the seat of power for the Hohenzollern dynasty and became a part of the Kingdom of Prussia. Prussia only became a kingdom after the Hapsburg emperor granted it that right.

If by 'Prussia' you mean the Baltic state of 'East Prussia', then Brandenburg did not technically 'conquer' it but acquired it without a war.

I'm sorry if this is nitpicking or if I'm telling you what you already know, but this just bugged me a bit.

Very interesting thread, gotta love that historical debate :D. I know more about my Nordic friend's histories then they do :lol:
 
Öjevind Lång;8745171 said:
No. Saying that Skåne was conquered by Denmark is like saying Gotland was conquered by Sweden, or that Prussia was conquered by Brandenburg. In other words, that something which had never belonged to Denmark or Sweden or Brandenburg was made part of Denmark or Sweden or Brandenburg. You are projecting 9th century Denmark backwards in time to contain that which was not and never had been part of Denmark before the Danish conquest - as if Skåne always had belonged to Denmark in some kind of Platonic sense. Who ruled Dennark at the time of the Danish conquest of Skåne is of secondary importance. I take it you don't deny that Skåne was forcibly annexed to Denmark by a Danish invasion? And, as I have said in a previous post, before the Danish conquest Skåne was partitioned into different principalities, but they had evolved a sense of regional common identity and had started to send representatives to a common Scanian *thing*, or parliament.

Yes I deny that Skåne was forcibly annexed to Denmark because there is no historical record of this. You still have not answered my questions:

1. What Danish conquest?
2. When did this conquest take place?
3. Who was the 'Danish' king/chief who 'conquered' Skåne?
4. Who was leader of Skåne?
5. What facts do you have to base this on?

In order to make a claim that one area conquered another area, you need to base it on something, and these questions are of importance if we are to establish if you are right.
If there has been a conquest of sorts that I have never ever heard anything about, I would love to learn more.
So please let me in on your historical sources.

Who is to say that Skåne didn't 'forcibly annex' Sjælland, thus giving birth to Denmark?
 
Since there is no Danish ethnicity, one can only be "Danish" by either being member of that original tribe or later on by being a citizen of the Danish state. The people of Scania could only become Danish (citizens) after a Danish realm was established and Scania was incorporated into it.

In the end we're all Scandinavians.

Spoiler for historical speculation...
Spoiler :
There is a historical source (I do not have it at hand, but I think it is in Jordanes' accounts of the Goths) where it is said that the Danish tribe came from the lands of the Swedes (Suehans), drew the Herules away from their lands and settled there themselves. Now, personally I don't believe that the Danes came from the areas around lake Mälaren, but let's just for the sake of argument say that the Danes originated north of the Öresund strait, that wouldn't make the Scanians Danish. It would however make the Danes Scanians. ;)
 
Since there is no Danish ethnicity, one can only be "Danish" by either being member of that original tribe or later on by being a citizen of the Danish state. The people of Scania could only become Danish (citizens) after a Danish realm was established and Scania was incorporated into it.

My point exactly. And since Skåne was a part of Denmark as far back as the word 'Denmark' has been used, it is not wrong to say that Skåne always has been a part of Denmark.
It was indeed an independent chiefdom in the Iron Age but so was Sjælland. Was that also 'forcibly annexed' into Denmark? (to Öyevind Lång, not Ingvina Freyr ;) - I'm still looking forward to hearing more about this Danish invasion...)
The original people of Skåne were just as 'Danish' as people from Sjælland, and since Jylland (Jutland) was united with 'Denmark' later than Skåne, it is fair to say that Skåne was even more 'Danish' than Jutland.
 
And since Skåne was a part of Denmark as far back as the word 'Denmark' has been used, it is not wrong to say that Skåne always has been a part of Denmark.
How do you figure, if Skåne was incorporated into Denmark by the end of the tenth century? Besides, "always part of Denmark" excludes some 350+ years as a part of Sweden.

Anyway, my point on the whole Scandinavian subject, wich I always enjoy stressing, is that we are all Scandinavians. The other names are just old tribal names that have linguered. Had queen Margrete's successors been equal to her in terms of political skills, or if Karl X had succeeded in storming Copenhagen some 250 years later, we might all have proudly called ourselves Danes or Swedes today, while 500 years of Polish rule (had that occured) wouldn't have made us call ourselves Poles (or Polacks?). And since the name of the game is Civilization, I think it's perfectly fit to include one Scandinavian civilisation even though we for the largest part of history have been divided into two or more states. Compare with India or Germany for example.

EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't mind calling myself Danish now either with the upcoming football world cup and all. :)
 
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