Science system

[hallmacher]

I am wondering myself how unrealistic and linear the science system in CIV5 is (I win every game at 1750 AD on "emperor"). The more population, the greater the progress. Translated into realty, although equipped with simplest libraries, China and India should be - at least from 15th to 19th century - further developed than the West. But they are und were not. Science never depend only on infrastructure or size of population: just loot at Soviet Union. And science was and will never be a regional exclusive linear super-structure, it has mathematical reasons (complexity).

Back in CIV5, I see that for a middle size country it's now impossible to reach a well developed country. So after a while, in the last part of the game, there is nothing change my world history or surprising me. In my humble opionion the science system of CIV5 is too simple, too unrealistic and too ahistorical - but of course: it's easy to understand and to play.

What dou you think? Was CIV4 better? And how about alternative systems?

 

[killmeplease]

i think science should come from specialists for most. e.g. +1 per scpecialist, so scientist's base output will be 4.
population should generate less, say 0.5 (or even 0.25) per citizen.

small empires get social policies faster, so there should be policies boosting specialists like rationalism do but maybe even more, so small countries will have an advantage or atleast will be able to compete with big ones.

it will be quite a simple mod to do by the way.

 

[Namaspamus]

Basing science output on population feels really strange and hurts small empires.

Yet I don't really miss the slider so I don't know what system would be better.

Edit: killmeplease's proposition about specialists boosted by some more early policies sounds very good.

 

[Dudu42]

If I was the game designer, I would overhaul the tech system for real.

How?

By allowing more techs being researched at the same time. This may sound cheap, but those techs should take long (LONG) to research, and would work in a tree system.

At the Ancient era, we should have only one branch, only one tech at time. By discovering another tech, let's say, biology, we could open a whole new branch including techs like medicine, refrigeration, genetics, and so on.

In this way, you could invest more on one branchs than others.

This is just an undeveloped idea, of course, and not really a sugestion, even less a sugestion for Civ V (Civ VI, maybe...).

..............

About Civ V, I think the techs should cost more and time go slower. In this way we could live a given era much longer and actually enjoy our recently aquired technology instead of aiming for the next.
How many times do we use longswordsman, for example? I see my enemies using them a lot, but I prefer to slingshot to gunpowder units. And that's considering I play on Epic speed.

The tech tree should be less linear. And maybe make more sense. I don't understand why mathematics gives you courthouse, for example. Also, academies sounds underpowered, and they shouldn't. Research agreement looks useless on most cases and I miss the technology trading.

All in all, I feel that the technology system of Civ IV was far superior then Civ V.

 

[killmeplease]

I don't understand why mathematics gives you courthouse, for example.

i am surprized more about that maths requires archery

 

[killmeplease]

new policy tree idea to boost specialists:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=395851

 

[Namaspamus]

At the Ancient era, we should have only one branch, only one tech at time. By discovering another tech, let's say, biology, we could open a whole new branch including techs like medicine, refrigeration, genetics, and so on.

In this way, you could invest more on one branchs than others.

I read about a mini-techs system somewhere. We would skip many mini-tech trees and focus on others. It could be hard to make it simple but sounds interesting.

new policy tree idea to boost specialists:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=395851

There could be policies hugely boosting scientists at the end of the Tradition tree too. So large empires could never get them and small ones wouldn't get outteched.

 

[killmeplease]

There could be policies hugely boosting scientists at the end of the Tradition tree too. So large empires could never get them and small ones wouldn't get outteched.

tradition does not go with scientists imo, in scence of hystorism. liberty is better candidate i think. what we have there? representation or meritocracy.. we can use any of them. because liberty is pretty weak overall.

for tradition i thnk culture per-specialist bonus would be suitable. i had a mod for civ4 there was a traditionalism civic giving +2 culture per specialist.

another thing i want to write here about is an idea of independent policy tree costs. that is, policy cost is increased only for a particular tree. so adopting trees will be available for any civ, but getting some 5th-level policy will be practically possible only for small highly-cultured empires. and those high-level policies should be science-boosting ones.

 

[V. Soma]

My idea is that techs would need pre-conditions:

Do you want Sailing?
CHECK: do you have a coastal city?

Do you want Mining?
CHECK: do you have a hill in your land?

Do you want Animal Husbandry?
CHECK: do you have animal resource in your land?

etc...

A new design of the tree is needed, perhaps with mini-branches...

 

[Atwork]

Assuming you think that the current system overemphasizes population as the primary factor in research rate: what would you suggest as an improved measure of research rate? What do you think would be a superior formula?

 

[killmeplease]

Assuming you think that the current system overemphasizes population as the primary factor in research rate: what would you suggest as an improved measure of research rate? What do you think would be a superior formula?

my suggestion
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=396109

 

[Namaspamus]

tradition does not go with scientists imo, in scence of hystorism. liberty is better candidate i think. what we have there? representation or meritocracy.. we can use any of them. because liberty is pretty weak overall.

for tradition i thnk culture per-specialist bonus would be suitable. i had a mod for civ4 there was a traditionalism civic giving +2 culture per specialist.

another thing i want to write here about is an idea of independent policy tree costs. that is, policy cost is increased only for a particular tree. so adopting trees will be available for any civ, but getting some 5th-level policy will be practically possible only for small highly-cultured empires. and those high-level policies should be science-boosting ones.

I though about Tradition to keep these policies out of large civ's reach. There could be 7 or more policies by tree, the last being the best. But making the end-trees policies more expensive is a good way too.

Maybe the best solution (and I think you suggested it in another thread) is a "policy upkeep" exponentially increasing with the number of cities. So we can't stay small until Renaissance, then go conquer and keep the benefits of policies designed for small empires.

Another good idea I read about science: now you can hire 2 scientists with a library and 1 with a university. The opposite would reward developed cities.