SerfNES II - Legacy of Versailles

[Fëanor]

From the USA
To the UK

There is no mention of any period of time in the treaty, it quite a pathetic and sad excuse for the United Kingdom to dishonor agreements they signed.

From the USA
to France

Due to the United Kingdom's choice not to fully honor the Treaty of Decolonization we find our position on the French colonial possessions somewhat compromised, while we believe that our actions are still legal we are willing negotiate a treaty that transfers those territories back to France in exchange clear agreements on the payment of American loans to France.

Edit: Or as an alternative the US offers to raise the Compensation for those colonies to 30 EP (20 ep loan cancellation plus 10 EP cash)

 

[Dachs]

(there was 29 million Turks in total in Anatolia, so I am guesstimating the population in Ionia)

Nah. Population of the entire Ottoman Empire as per the millet census of 1914 gives less than 29 million; it was less than 21 million as a matter of fact. Counting the loss of Mesopotamia and the Levant, Anatolia (or Asia Minor, or whatever) has about 10 million persons in it, nearly 2 million of whom are Greek and at least one million of whom are Armenian. Granted, those territories have been shunted to their respective nationalities in large part, but there are still about half a million Greeks living in what is now Turkey, and slightly more than that number (probably three-quarters of a million; being exact here is of course difficult) of Turks in both European and Asian Greece. As for non-OOC comments...

To: Ankara Government
From: Kingdom of Greece

We will not recognize your government until you in turn recognize that we control our portion of the Ionian coast as per the Treaty of Versailles. While we have no wish for conquest, and will not attack you, we will defend our rightfully awarded territories to the last.

 

[#1 Person]

To Kingdom of Greece
From: The Republic of Turkey

So you believe that national boundaries and populations are mearly being something to be traded and "rewarded"? It is necessary that national lines are placed in relation to the ethnicity of the population, and we will not have some treaty arbitrarily set lines otherwise. We, as the protectors of the Turkish people, will not recognize the land to be under foreign rule.

OOC:
Ah, the pop information I was getting from (http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/golf/greekturk1921.htm), I have came across many different numbers in my studies, and I decided to pick that one since it is the largest

The Wikipedia page says 14,629,000 for 1919. But It doesn't site their source, and I am generally inclind to take it with a grain of salt, as it doesn't say during which time in 1919, and there was large amounts of territorial changes during that year. Most notably the Northern Portions of Iraq and the Levant were occupied by allied troops.

Ottoman census's were completely unreal though. I do not know whether or not you have access to a university computer, but this article explains some of it (http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0020-7438(197810)9:3<325:TOCSAP>2.0.CO;2-Y). Simply put, any number published by the Ottoman Empire is way off.

 

[Fëanor]

In order to maintain peace between the USA and France the following settlement is proposed.

The Cayenne Settlement​

• Cancellation of US loans to France
• US sends 10 ep to France as additional compensation
• France officially transfers its colonies in the Americas to the USA
• The USA organizes the territories of the three Guyana's into the Guyana Commonwealth
• The USA organizes the US territories in the Caribbean plus Belize into the Caribbean Commonwealth

Signed Acting President of the USA T.R. Marshall

 

[Shadowbound]

France offers some final amendments, to address the concerns that were one of our reasons for not selling the territories to the United States in the first place.

The Cayenne Settlement​

• Cancellation of US loans to France
• US sends 10 ep to France as additional compensation
• The USA and France organize the territories of the three Guyanas into the Guianan Confederation.
• The USA and France organize the US and French territories in the Caribbean plus Belize into the Caribbean Commonwealth.
• France will transfer Saint Pierre and Miquelon, with the United Kingdom's permission, to Canada. Clipperton to Mexico, to be held in trust by the United States until the end of that country's civil war.
• France and the United States recognize Guyana and the Carribean to be fully independent nations, and acknowledge that said nations internal affairs are to be free from any special relationship with the United States, apart from their status as nations in the Americas

 

[Fëanor]

The French amendments would make the US return several annexed lands such as Clipperton Island, Saint Pierre, Miquelon and is therefore unacceptable, the US will not pay 30ep for decolonization and still have French bases in its backyard.

Also the US has already pointed out in our discussion that we will not undermine the Monroe Doctrine. And considering that the Republican Party candidates are running on a platform of anti-communism interventionism and will likely expand the Monroe Doctrine to allow the US to remove Communist regimes we cannot possibly sign any agreement that could be nullified in less that one year (signed in the early stages of the update and void before it ends)

If France is unwilling to accept our proposal we suggest we begin negotiating a return of those territories to France in exchange of clear terms of payment of US loans to France.

 

[Dachs]

To Kingdom of Greece
From: The Republic of Turkey

So you believe that national boundaries and populations are mearly being something to be traded and "rewarded"? It is necessary that national lines are placed in relation to the ethnicity of the population, and we will not have some treaty arbitrarily set lines otherwise. We, as the protectors of the Turkish people, will not recognize the land to be under foreign rule.

That wasn't the primary reason behind Greece's claim on Ionia at all. We claimed Smyrna and the rest of Ionia, as well as Thrace, based on historical and national claims - the Turks haven't been able to genocide them all over the past millennium. We believe that any place where nearly 2 million Greeks live is a place to which Greece can lay a strong claim indeed. A legitimate treaty has given Greece control of the lands she currently controls, and we will abide by that legitimate treaty. Your refusal to sign it and your status as an armed revolutionary movement displacing the established and legal order in your country places us at odds. You can blither about failing to recognize the Treaty of Versailles, but if you wish to violate that treaty and displace the legitimate order, your criminals that you call an army will have to take Ionia from us by force. While Greece does not wish for war, we will not yield on the question of Ionia and we will not abandon the Greeks who live in our rightfully awarded territory.

OOC: I would tend to be a little leery of that OnWar.com source, because it cites gigantic numbers for Turkey's army (numbers that I don't get from the Encyclopedia of Military History, for example, which is usually pretty good about these things). The numbers are suspiciously round (and also wrong; off by a good ten thousand for the Greeks due to captured count; either it is ~23000 or ~45000 Greek casualties where OnWar.com says 30000).

While I know that the millet census is a piece of crap, it's also the only census that was in any position to have anything close to real numbers, because during war years any number - especially those not published by the Ottoman government - is pretty much a fairy tale.

And no, I can't use a university computer, but I can use JSTOR (pretty handy actually; taught me most of what I know about Pennsylvania Dutch/German) and I can read that article.

On a completely unrelated note, I have sent someone diplo, and I can't write orders unless a response comes.

 

[Head Serf]

Well, it's Wednesday, and I have only about 3 or 4 orders. Please send orders today or tommorrow! If you have a good reason for needing an extension, TELL ME, I can and will accommodate you.

 

[Dachs]

Orders will come soonly; I guess I will have to add conditionals.

 

[IronMan2055]

You have my orders right?

 

[#1 Person]

That wasn't the primary reason behind Greece's claim on Ionia at all. We claimed Smyrna and the rest of Ionia, as well as Thrace, based on historical and national claims - the Turks haven't been able to genocide them all over the past millennium. We believe that any place where nearly 2 million Greeks live is a place to which Greece can lay a strong claim indeed. A legitimate treaty has given Greece control of the lands she currently controls, and we will abide by that legitimate treaty. Your refusal to sign it and your status as an armed revolutionary movement displacing the established and legal order in your country places us at odds. You can blither about failing to recognize the Treaty of Versailles, but if you wish to violate that treaty and displace the legitimate order, your criminals that you call an army will have to take Ionia from us by force. While Greece does not wish for war, we will not yield on the question of Ionia and we will not abandon the Greeks who live in our rightfully awarded territory.

OOC: I would tend to be a little leery of that OnWar.com source, because it cites gigantic numbers for Turkey's army (numbers that I don't get from the Encyclopedia of Military History, for example, which is usually pretty good about these things). The numbers are suspiciously round (and also wrong; off by a good ten thousand for the Greeks due to captured count; either it is ~23000 or ~45000 Greek casualties where OnWar.com says 30000).

While I know that the millet census is a piece of crap, it's also the only census that was in any position to have anything close to real numbers, because during war years any number - especially those not published by the Ottoman government - is pretty much a fairy tale.

And no, I can't use a university computer, but I can use JSTOR (pretty handy actually; taught me most of what I know about Pennsylvania Dutch/German) and I can read that article.

On a completely unrelated note, I have sent someone diplo, and I can't write orders unless a response comes.

OOC:
Casualties includes wounded at OnWar.com I can assume, hence the high number.

IC:

From Turkey
To Greece

Although you might have large numbers in Izmir, Turkish Numbers outweigh them many times. By your same reasoning, there is a large Irish minority population in New York (at this time at least), but the United Kingdom has no claim to it. The same example refuts your historical claim the region, you have not held the land for over 500 years, while we have. As for Thrace, we have no particular opinion on that matter.


EDIT: OOC: I know that the Greeks don't outway turks many times, but, Mustafa Kemal claimed that. In a similar way, I intend to deny the Armenian Genocide and the like.

 

[Dachs]

From Turkey
To Greece

Although you might have large numbers in Izmir, Turkish Numbers outweigh them many times. By your same reasoning, there is a large Irish minority population in New York (at this time at least), but the United Kingdom has no claim to it. The same example refuts your historical claim the region, you have not held the land for over 500 years, while we have. As for Thrace, we have no particular opinion on that matter.

Actually, Turkish numbers don't outweigh Greeks "many times", especially in Ionia. As for New York, the situations are not analogous; the Greeks in Ionia are the remnant of the population that was genocided by the various Turkic powers who invaded Anatolia a millennium ago, they were not fleeing adverse economic and social conditions elsewhere.

We still refuse to acknowledge any claim you may have to legitimacy, much less any claim to our legitimately treaty-acquired territory.

 

[Flavius Aetius]

Serf, I just noticed a strange thing...why Italy is listed as Conservative Democracy and not as Costitutional Monarchy?

 

[Head Serf]

Because I personally hate the term Constitutional Monarchy. I don't personally think the type of government should include parts which have no real power (or have power but would never use it). In this sense I feel it is better to view Italy as a democracy.

 

[bombshoo]

Belgian Orders sent

 

[#1 Person]

From the Turkish Republic
To Italy

We appreciate your care in the control of the Antalya region. We are fine with you maintaining military bases in the region as you see fit, however, your political control of the region was never to be permanent. We are organizing elections this turn in Turkey, and we would most certainly wish this region to take part.

To Greece
From Turkey

The Treaty of Versailles only says that you get the "Greek Majority" lands in western Anatolia. My claim is that there are none. I have no intention of breaking any treaty.

 

[Shadowbound]

The French amendments would make the US return several annexed lands such as Clipperton Island, Saint Pierre, Miquelon and is therefore unacceptable, the US will not pay 30ep for decolonization and still have French bases in its backyard.

We see this nowhere in our proposed treaty. The only difference is that France is transferring the territories directly to the new countries, instead of using the United States as an intermediary.

Also the US has already pointed out in our discussion that we will not undermine the Monroe Doctrine. And considering that the Republican Party candidates are running on a platform of anti-communism interventionism and will likely expand the Monroe Doctrine to allow the US to remove Communist regimes we cannot possibly sign any agreement that could be nullified in less that one year (signed in the early stages of the update and void before it ends)

France merely wishes to ensure that the US will not possess a de facto satellite state, like Cuba (which the United States occupied in 1906 and ran under an American governor for three years).

 

[Flavius Aetius]

From the Turkish Republic
To Italy

We appreciate your care in the control of the Antalya region. We are fine with you maintaining military bases in the region as you see fit, however, your political control of the region was never to be permanent. We are organizing elections this turn in Turkey, and we would most certainly wish this region to take part.

From: Italy
To: Turkey

Italian zone in Turkey won't take part in Turks elections until Italy will control it.
Antalaya is a part of the Italian state, and if they have to take part of an election, it will be the Italian one.

 

[#1 Person]

From Turkey
To Italy
CC: United Kingdom, France, USA, all other European Powers

The territory was not given to you within the treaty of Versailles. The territory was only placed under your influence until such a time as a Democratic Turkey could be formed. We are currently doing so. I will most certianly not allow you to illegally, under all International treaties, annex a section of Anatolia. The area, is only under your mandate, any sort of annexation would be violation of the treaty.

 

[DarthNader]

Orders sent.