I just did some tile-counting: We have just 10 farmed-irrigated tiles that'll get the +1 food from biology - all of them on the Greco-Chinese lands. Obviously we can get more by farming over cottages but that'll slow our science. I'm therefore inclined to think we should get military tradition before biology (besides, it's only 4 turns to military tradition, 7 to biology, and it'll take a while to build our army of - I'm guessing, mainly cossacks/catapults, with a few grenadiers thrown in anyway? Communism would be extremely useful to research too if we're likely to be trying to capture far-flung cities.
I guess until we have military tradition, we want to start setting cities with barracks to build catapults and the odd grenadier, and those without to build frigates and galleons?
I think we have to see how the race for the second spot goes while building the UN and then take the appropriate measures.
If we want to go to war I would suggest to research Military Tradition. At the moment just Washington has this tech and won't trade it. It takes just 4 turns and gives us cossacks. Build some and send them over to whoever we want to cripple. They will wreck heavoc.
Yeah, AFAICS which leaders get to be in the vote is calculated afresh for each vote, so if one civ overtakes another in size, that could easily change who our opponent is between votes.
I agree on taking Hittite early - if we can take it while the barbs have it that means we can get it without upsetting anyone else. Also, if we can send even a small force over there now, we may find we can capture it at an opportune moment when an AI has attacked it and weakened its defenders.
When I lost the scout looking at it, Hittite only had 2 warriors and 1 Lbow. I think the 2 loaded galleons have enough firepower to take it out quickly
Here's a thought...I think the best way to get Toku as our opponent is to gift him a city or two AND Biology.
We want Toku as our opponent, because I think us and our 6 friends might be able to get enough votes to win, perhaps if we take out Louis, Frederick, and Izzy.
Also, we want to attempt to get permanent alliances with a few of our friends...That requires Communism and/or Fascism. To get those, we need defensive Pacts for like 40 turns...that requires Military Tradition.
Here's the proposed plan then...Get Military Tradition next, then Biology and gift it to Toku. Follow that with Communism and Fascism.
While doing that, we start the UN in Moscow and once we get Mil Trad, we sign defensive pacts with Hatty, Gandhi, Julius, Vicky, and Monty. As long as we are not #1 in power and the person we are trying to get a permanent alliance with isn't either, then after about 40 turns, we should be able to propose and get a permanent alliance with some of them. If we are able to get one with Hatty and/or Monty, then they'll never be our opponent in the vote.
The problem with that? We can't declare a war or we lose our defensive pacts. Also, I'm not entirely sure if we can get a permanent alliance with more than one other civ.
The problem with that? We can't declare a war or we lose our defensive pacts. Also, I'm not entirely sure if we can get a permanent alliance with more than one other civ.
Intriguing idea. You should probably private Gyathaar to ask him about the permanent alliance rules.
Shame we didn't think of using permanent alliances earlier - if we had we could probably have re-prioritized our research to get military tradition earlier.
I've never used permanent alliances before. How do they work? Can any member of the alliance declare war on someone else and that automatically brings the other party in?
(EDIT: Also need to check: Is it the combined population of an alliance that determines no. of UN votes and eligibility for votes?)
I'm not sure, I've never used them, but I believe Sam and mark know a bit about it...if I recall, Geezers got a Permanent Alliance with Gandhi in SGOTM1 on their way to the fastest diplo victory
edit: I had just finished pm'ing Gyathaar about permanent alliances when I checked our thread again and saw your post
In SGOTM01 it was set from the beginning that you had an AI you could not declare war on and one AI you were at war with until you finished them off. Gandhi was the one you theoretically could not declare war on, but I think one team managed to get into war with Gandhi by a permanent alliance with another AI .
I do not know whether it was a permanent alliance with Gandhi. We got to know that we could not war with him when we met him only. The AI being at war with was known right from the start. If it would have been a permanent alliance I think we should have known Gandhi right from the start, but I also do not know much about permanent alliances and how they work.
Summary: We learned Mass Media and Military Traditions. We are a beuracracy and building the UN. We are the new care takers of Hittite. It look like Vickey is going to war with someone to our east. I guess we are going to make a decition as to what and who will aid. It might be Hatty.
1580 AD (Turn 330): Not much and press enter just to see IBT: Gandhi come knocking asking for Physics. We can't say no to our best bud who is falling behind.
1583 AD (Turn 331): Cski:Market>Knight. Sending back the Caravel to scout Hittie. Moving two loaded galley and an empty one to Novgerode along with a Caravel. IBT: Monty(cautious) demand we stop trading with Musa who is friendly to us, We decline.
1586 AD (Turn 332): We learn Mass Media and start Mil Trade. Rush Uni in Moscow for one pop. IBT: Musa offer 140g + Democracy for Mass Media. Was tempted but held back .
1589 AD (Turn 333): Moscow: University>UN (need 63 turns). So changing unworked cottage to a work shop and will revolt for 2 turns to become a Bueracracy. Novgerode: Uni>Galley, Beijing: Cat>Knight, The landing party is ready at Novgerode. Added a Knight and Longbow to empty galley. IBT: ZZZ
1592 AD (Turn 334): Chenju is defended with just two pikes. Hittite Raiders takes off. IBT: Washington,cautious, demand we stop trading with Monti. We declined to comply and now he is annoyed . Can we take him out next. Can we. can we.
1595 AD (turn 335): We are a Beuracracy and UN in 44 turns . Hittite still have the same 3 defenders, LB and 2 warriors. Workers completed the workshop and now the UN in 39 turns . Hitties are saying ....the Russians are comming, the Russians are comming... Tempted to adopt a state religion for another 25% shields. IBT: Khan wanted open borders and was declined.
1598 AD (Turn 336): L City: Market>Musketman. Beijing is unhappy. We need aa market there. So it got added to the line and mm to get most shilds. City manger was turned on for max food. IBT: Hatty demand we stop trading with Monti. We declined since she is our current competition and she is +9 in favor of us with +13 for Monti. She remain pleased. Saladin will not take it well since we refused to stop trading with Ganghi.
1601 AD (Turn 337): GA Du Fu can give 2004 beakers toward Demacracy. Hittites are saying...the Russians have landed...Musa might give us a problem with the UN. He is up Steel, Demacracy and replaceable parts and willing to trade where as our buddies Vicky and JC will not trade Dem & Rep Part and Mill trade respectively. Some friends. IBT: Zzz
1604 AD (Turn 8): Shanghai: Oxford University>Observatory. Two un promoted knights kill the two warriors and take the city. I guess the LB had to be some place else. Left 2 each knights, cats, galleys and one each of LB, Pike and a caravel in Hitite. Returning a Knight and a cat to Fatherland. IBT: Zzz
1907 AD (Turn 9): Sparta finishes: Observatory>Cossack, Nanjing finishes: Market>Frigate. Just noticed Vickey is moving a sizable invation force toward Musa's direction but she is pleased with him. 2 Galleys carrying 3 eac of knights and cats with 2 Frigate escort. They just passed Novgerode. IBT: Zzz
AD (Turn 10): The Galley with knight and cat are home. I am sending the Caravel to follow the English invation force. It may not be able to keep up. Musa still do not have Mass Media and willing to trade 350g and replaceable part for Miltrade. Our economy took a hit with the new city by about 11gpt.
Turn 330, 1580 AD: James Watt has been born in Thebes!
Turn 331, 1583 AD: You have discovered Mass Media!
Turn 331, 1583 AD: Tokugawa adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 331, 1583 AD: Wang Anshi has been born in Karakorum!
Turn 332, 1586 AD: You have constructed a University in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Galleon.
Turn 332, 1586 AD: The borders of Rostov have expanded!
Turn 332, 1586 AD: The borders of Nanjing have expanded!
Turn 333, 1589 AD: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 333, 1589 AD: Geezers adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 333, 1589 AD: Li Po has been born in Persepolis!
Turn 334, 1592 AD: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 334, 1592 AD: Cyrus's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 335, 1595 AD: Beijing has become unhappy
Turn 335, 1595 AD: Isabella adopts Representation!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: St. Petersburg will grow to size 18 on the next turn
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Novgorod celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Du Fu has been born in Athens!
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Louis XIV has 380 gold available for trade
Turn 337, 1601 AD: You have discovered Military Tradition!
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Novgorod celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 337, 1601 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight (10.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (4.50)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 338, 1604 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Your Knight has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight (10.00) vs Barbarian's Warrior (4.50)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 338, 1604 AD: (Plot Defense: +75%)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: (City Defense: +25%)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Geezers's Knight has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Your Knight has destroyed a Warrior!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 338, 1604 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 338, 1604 AD: You have captured Hittite!!!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Gandhi has 190 gold available for trade
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Shanghai has grown to size 11
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Joseph Marie Jacquard has been born in Timbuktu!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Kublai Khan adopts Free Market!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Cyrus has 210 gold available for trade
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Mansa Musa has 360 gold available for trade
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Julius Caesar has 160 gold available for trade
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Louis XIV has 450 gold available for trade
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Novgorod will grow to size 16 on the next turn
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Novgorod will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Mansa Musa has completed Broadway!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Victoria adopts Emancipation!
Autolog
Spoiler:
Turn 331 (1583 AD) Coppertownski begins: Knight Tech learned: Mass Media St. Petersburg grows: 17 Athens grows: 12
Turn 332 (1586 AD) Research begun: Military Tradition Moscow finishes: University Novgorod grows: 15 Novgorod finishes: University Rostov's borders expand Beijing finishes: Catapult Nanjing's borders expand
Turn 333 (1589 AD) Novgorod begins: Galleon Beijing begins: Knight Moscow begins: The United Nations
Turn 334 (1592 AD)
Turn 335 (1595 AD) Lodestone City grows: 11 Lodestone City finishes: Market Beijing grows: 14 Nanjing grows: 9
Turn 336 (1598 AD) Lodestone City begins: Musketman Beijing begins: Market New Novgorod grows: 15 Du Fu (Great Artist) born in Athens Guangzhou grows: 12
Turn 337 (1601 AD) Tech learned: Military Tradition St. Petersburg grows: 18 Shanghai finishes: Oxford University
I bet Vicky is going to war with Huayna...or at least, I hope so. We could use the opportunity to go to war with her, and perhaps get Hatty, Monty, Gandhi, and/or Julius all into it as well.
Looking at the Statistics screen and the victory screens, there is a big discrepancy. I wish I knew how CIV calculates population.
First- Victory screen shows Toku in 2nd with 8%) if true)
Second- a quick look at Pop in the Stats screen indicates we have almost 18mil or 24% of the world pop which is significantly higher than the almost 18% the dominance victory screen shows. Anyone have a clue as to why?
It seems to me Toku was at 8% many turns ago when he was in second. Computer glitch? Too many CIVs in one game for it to handle
As if I didn't have anything else to do on a Monday Morning, here is a total city count with total population. A couple Civs have a far flung city here and there (Mansa's Tedeka is way south) (Hattie strung all over.)
Here we go:
Geezers the Great- 14(166 *plus Hittite's pop when it comes out of revolt)
Toku - 12(89)
Monti - 12(87)
Hattie - 9(86)
JC - 8(70)
Kubla - 7(65)
Cyrus - 6(59)
Mansa - 9(58)
Huanya - 8(55)
Izzie - 8(53)
Vickie - 4(50)
gandhi - 6(47)
Wash - 6(45)
Louis -3(30)
Saladin - 2(23)
Mao - 4(20)
Fred - 2(11)
I may have missed 1 or 2 but think it is close. Not much size difference for the 3 Civs looking to be number 2. If the numbers mean anything then it might lend credence to gifting Hittite to TOKU for insurance.
Looking at these numbers I am tempted to take out all the small civs. This will get our pop up and more votes for us. It should not be too hard to get these cities. We could even try to gift a few cities to Toku to ensure that he remains no. 2 if he is willing to take these cities.
There's a slight discrepancy there as the game is showing 1029 votes total, but I make it your figures + Hittite add up to 1019, but that's probably close enough to ignore (it may be that the game does something slightly different from adding up city pops, I know it's been reported in the forums that it has two different ways of measuring population).
But anyway, ignoring the discrepancy, the game says we need 637 votes to win. On your figures, us plus everyone pleased with us gives 569, so we'd be 68 short. (Assuming everyone who's pleased with us votes for us; that's not a given in itself). We can make up 31 of the shortfall by taking out Mao and Frederick (well, roughly, ignoring the cities I think losing 1 pop (?) when they fall), but we'll obviously need to 'do' a couple of bigger civs too.
Luckily, the world does seem to be quite nicely divided into blocks: going through all the civs who are cautious/annoyed/furious towards us, it looks like we can declare war on almost any of them while doing only minimal damage to our relations with ones in our friendly block.
By my calculations we can shave 5 turns off the time to build the UN if we workshop over one of the cottages in Moscow. If we're desparate, we can shave 8 turns off the time to build the UN if we workshop over two of the cottages; however, that'll only work if we can get communism soon and revolt to state property (and hope that only loses us 1 turn), otherwise Moscow will starve and lose one of the workshops.
However it's going to take us a while to do our conquering anyway, so might not matter too much. I'd still do one workshop immediately though.
btw Moscow still doesn't have a lighthouse - which is one reason it's so small and so taking so relatively long to build UN (but a bit late to build one now). We should prioritize it the moment Moscow finishes the UN though.
Now we have fairly good population figures (thanks Dagnabit!) I'm changing my mind about holding off and not doing anything with our forces. It looks clear that we're going to need to take out a few other civs, and that's going to take time, so I'll vote we go to war as soon as we can rustle a force together. Options include to start with Mao, and then move on to joining in whoever Vicky is attacking (especially if it's Huayna, but obviously not if it turns out to be a friend of ours). Or we could follow Vicky first in the hope of picking up some cheap cities that she's weakened the defences for us? I'm inclined to do the latter if we can get there in time, as Vicky's force (assuming the fleet off Rostov is the entire force) doesn't look to me like it's strong enough to capture a typical AI-defended city, but it should be strong enough to weaken some city's defences for us to capture.
Both Mao and Huayna have only Monty pleased towards them amongst our friends.
btw if we're going to war, can we prioritize steel for researching soon? Some CR1-promoted cannon would be incredibly useful, especially as a lot of civs will have pikeman now (I notice Huayna has one by Machu Picchu)
Maybe I am a little tiresome, but for cossacks pikes are just apetizers. We just need some cossacks and cats first. Cats to bomb the cities to zero and let the cavalry roll over them. With the cash we have we could upgrade our knights. IIRC it costs 155 gold / knight. None of the smaller AIs will be able to withstand this.
btw if we're going to war, can we prioritize steel for researching soon? Some CR1-promoted cannon would be incredibly useful, especially as a lot of civs will have pikeman now (I notice Huayna has one by Machu Picchu)
As Mansa's friendly with us again it's probably worth trading for it. Perhaps for Replaceable Parts as well? As far as potential targets I agree that Mao & Frederick are good targets. Hatty likes Frederick but as long as we don't let our war against him lapse it wouldn't affect our relations with her.
EDIT: Btw I notice that Toku's second in pop again.
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). So changing unworked cottage to a work shop and will revolt for 2 turns to become a Bueracracy. Novgerode: Uni>Galley, Beijing: Cat>Knight, The landing party is ready at Novgerode. Added a Knight and Longbow to empty galley. 
. Can we take him out next. Can we. can we.
