SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

Big Pig · May 15, 2007

Although this will not affect JERFit's turnset, we still need to come to a consensus as to how best to keep the game tech rate as high as possible. Intuitively, it seems logical that 4 or 5 well developed nations will drive the tech rate faster than 2 or 3. But Erkon's arguments for maximising our empire at the expense of M and possibly W and gifting techs as appropriate are compelling and I'm struggling to find a flaw in his reasoning

LowtherCastle · May 15, 2007

Big Pig said:
Again, I don't recall ever seeing the 'we want to win' reason for not tech trading. Lets plan our tactics assuming the AIs will trade with each other. When (if) they stop, we can change tactics accordingly

If you open this save and check Catherine, you'll see that she is willing to trade certain modern techs. It appears that she'll trade any techs that don't enable building a space part.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/LC_BC-2140_rather_win_the_game_example2.CivWarlordsSave

But it's not clear that all AIs will trade them.

What this would mean is that we could try to get G to trade for Radio>Computers (Laboratory), and Plastics, which suffice as prerequisites for Fiber Optics(Internet).

Other tradeable techs would include:
Refrigeration, Mass Media, and Flight

LowtherCastle · May 15, 2007

Big Pig said:
Two more issues:
1. Do we continue Globe build in ~~Versailles~~ Verlamion? (= do we intend to capture Istanbul in the next 20-30 turns?) Well, what do we actually lose if we postpone it in Verl for now? Nothing, I don't suppose.
2. Do we continue SoL in MW? Flip a coin. Should we just build non-culture bldgs instead? Build a settler?

Big Pig said:
If we are planning on exiling our 1 city rivals such as Isa and (hopefully in the future) M, perhaps we should settle Horse Island (1S of where H's settler has been hanging around). Both Stone Island and Horse Island would be perfect St Helenas for our favorite AI enemies Good idea. We could build a settler in MW.

Big Pig said:
Although this will not affect JERFit's turnset, we still need to come to a consensus as to how best to keep the game tech rate as high as possible. Intuitively, it seems logical that 4 or 5 well developed nations will drive the tech rate faster than 2 or 3. But Erkon's arguments for maximising our empire at the expense of M and possibly W and gifting techs as appropriate are compelling and I'm struggling to find a flaw in his reasoning

Bottom line is, how much faster can we tech than 5 AIs? There are a number of different paths they could take, assuming they had all the tradeable techs and were researching space-part techs:

From Elec

>Fission
>Refrig
>Indust

From Plastics

>Ecol
>Fiber Optics
>Robotics

From Computers

>FIber
>Genetics

Rocketry

>Satellites

Of course, if we can guess what G is researching, then all we need to do to make it cheaper is research it in advance and gift it to all the other AIs.

Are we sure that taking M's cities will increase our research? Will we need State Property? DO we want to pass the Environmentalism resolution?

Erkon · May 15, 2007

Big Pig said:
Two more issues:
1. Do we continue Globe build in Versailles? (= do we intend to capture Istanbul in the next 20-30 turns?)
2. Do we continue SoL in MW?

1. I am fine with discontinuing Globe if we plan to attack M. And 20-30 turns is very close to my turn set :clap:

2. Switch MW to short builds (missionaries or buildings)

Big Pig said:
If we are planning on exiling our 1 city rivals such as Isa and (hopefully in the future) M, perhaps we should settle Horse Island (1S of where H's settler has been hanging around). Both Stone Island and Horse Island would be perfect St Helenas for our favorite AI enemies

Good idea. Perhaps MW could build the settler?

Big Pig said:
Again, I don't recall ever seeing the 'we want to win' reason for not tech trading. Lets plan our tactics assuming the AIs will trade with each other. When (if) they stop, we can change tactics accordingly

I've seen that in my games, but I don't know when/why it kicks in, and I don't know if it will keep the AI from trading with each others. This leads me to another issue that has been nagging me for a while: how do we know that the AI trade with each others? Perhaps it's time to monitor the years when the AI learns a new tech? Together with the GNP graph it would be possible to detect trades? And there may be another reason why G. and I. does not trade: both of them are broke and cannot adjust differences in tech value with gold. So, perhaps we should donate a few hundred gold to Isa?

Erkon · May 15, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
...
Are we sure that taking M's cities will increase our research? Will we need State Property? DO we want to pass the Environmentalism resolution?

Yes, we are sure. They will pay for themselves many times over. And without them, I think that H. will out-tech us (when we eventually looses MW, Karak and Besh. We don't have that many research cities left in the old continent. That is one of the reasons why I am willing to admit that farming the hamlets next to Verlamion may not necessarily have been the brightest move from my part, at least not when taking M. agression into view. It's easy to be smart with hindsight.

LowtherCastle · May 15, 2007

Erkon said:
how do we know that the AI trade with each others? Perhaps it's time to monitor the years when the AI learns a new tech? Together with the GNP graph it would be possible to detect trades? And there may be another reason why G. and I. does not trade: both of them are broke and cannot adjust differences in tech value with gold. So, perhaps we should donate a few hundred gold to Isa?

Two very good ideas here. We should somehow monitor G's research progress and gifting money might be helpful, although I have zero experience with this idea.

Erkon said:
That is one of the reasons why I am willing to admit that farming the hamlets next to Verlamion may not necessarily have been the brightest move from my part, at least not when taking M. agression into view. It's easy to be smart with hindsight.

Well, the cottages farmed were only a few turns developed and when we get Emancipation, they'll come up quickly, so no biggie there. More important is whether we use Verl for units or research.

JERFit · May 16, 2007

I played like 2-3 turns, and am 1 turn away from MM.

I moved the cavalry from one of the city just south of Izzy's capital, and left it with a grenadier, but it was a bad idea because I forgot that we're at war with her, so she took it over with a gren. a rifle and a pike. So I guess I gotta get that after the middle M city. :mischief:

We want to keep stone island right? Because Ghandi is bombarding it with three frigs, and could invade it in two turns if he has a galleon in the fog. Maybe we should fortify it?

I'll play the rest of my set tomorrow.

Erkon · May 16, 2007

JERFit said:
I played like 2-3 turns, and am 1 turn away from MM.

I moved the cavalry from one of the city just south of Izzy's capital, and left it with a grenadier, but it was a bad idea because I forgot that we're at war with her, so she took it over with a gren. a rifle and a pike. So I guess I gotta get that after the middle M city.

We want to keep stone island right? Because Ghandi is bombarding it with three frigs, and could invade it in two turns if he has a galleon in the fog. Maybe we should fortify it?

I'll play the rest of my set tomorrow.

Oops, did Isa recapture one of our cities?

Is M. prepared to talk?

G. has been bombaring Stone City for ages. I think we should gift it as soon as we get peace.

LowtherCastle · May 16, 2007

JERFit said:
I moved the cavalry from one of the city just south of Izzy's capital, and...she took it...

Bummer...one reason why I prefer to see wars fought in one turnset, even if that turnset is longer than 10 turns--it's not the easiest thing in the world picking up someone else's flow of action...

...anyway...before you go on, tell us which city Isa took. We may prefer to capture her capital now and the other later.

In fact, it'd be great if you could upload the save so we could take a look at it, because, if possible, we may want to grab that city back right now, while it's easiest and before we lose any more population from it.

EDIT: Looked at the last save again, and guess what? I'd say it was Gnejs' blind luck that he didn't lose that city before you did. Cordoba, right?

LowtherCastle · May 16, 2007

Gnejs said:
There is no way we will pop a GE before finishing the UN. D'oh...! And with a happiness cap that is steadily going down from losing resources to Gandhi (I think we just lost our gems) and increased whining about emancipation it does seem more efficient to run a workshop than a farm+engineer. It looked even worse in Ning-Hsia until I collected a lot of MP units there. The jail should give an immediate +2 happy too...I don't think a prolonged war has any effect on the speed of which we will complete the UN (assuming we stack MP units in Ning-Hsia to counter the WW). Unhealthiness is limiting NH's max prod, not unhappiness.

Sorry, somehow I didn't see this post before.

I think we need to have resident warmongering experts have a powwow on how to deal with our new situation. I see these possibilities:

DoP and lick our wounds
Cease fire, prepare for onslaught, redeclare...
Continue as 'planned'
Cont. as planned and add Murcia to our capture list, instead of Cordoba or Seville
Cont. as planned and recapture Cordoba or Seville
Recapture Cordoba, DoP, lick our wounds
Cont. as planned and add Murcia, Istanbul, and al of M minus 1 city.

If our decision is anything other than DoP and lick our wounds, I would DEEPLY appreciate a detailed plan of how you (Gnejs and Erkon) would conduct the war campaign in the Northern Hemisphere, because I don't see how we can do anything in the next 3-5 turns.

Erkon · May 16, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
...
If our decision is anything other than DoP and lick our wounds, I would DEEPLY appreciate a detailed plan of how you (Gnejs and Erkon) would conduct the war campaign in the Northern Hemisphere, because I don't see how we can do anything in the next 3-5 turns.

As the example with the Cavalry shows, it's not possible to provide a detailed plan, since it will be ruined on turn 2. However, I'm sure we can draw up some general guidelines. Unfortunately I'm offline until monday, but I will read the forum from my phone.

LowtherCastle · May 16, 2007

Erkon said:
As the example with the Cavalry shows, it's not possible to provide a detailed plan, since it will be ruined on turn 2. However, I'm sure we can draw up some general guidelines. Unfortunately I'm offline until monday, but I will read the forum from my phone.

Unless, Gnejs, with his superior military wisdom, left that Cavalry there because Cordoba was within 1-turn striking distance. I'm willing to wager there's a reason why Gnejs left a Cavalry unit in Cordoba, but not in Seville.

Problem is, for me that's wisdom in hindsight, but more than likely, for Gnejs, foresight.

Big Pig · May 16, 2007

Don't worry - I'm sure it should be easy to recapture. I would prefer to recapture it (or Isa's capital - whichever is easiest) before we DoP as Isa is more likely to accept Stone Island as a gift if she has only 1 city. But you need to get peace asap after this as the war weariness is slowing our progress.

So:
- capture Gaz
- capture B capital (hopefully you have already)
- capture Seville/Cordoba or Murcia (I would think re-capturing our city will be easiest and quickest)
- do all the above in 2 turns or less

While we are still at war, continue to bombard the defences of Istanbul down to 0 with the frigates. They will slowly regenerate, but hopefully should still be depleted for when we re-DOW in ~20 turns time

Gnejs · May 16, 2007

JERFit said:
I played like 2-3 turns, and am 1 turn away from MM.

I moved the cavalry from one of the city just south of Izzy's capital, and left it with a grenadier, but it was a bad idea because I forgot that we're at war with her, so she took it over with a gren. a rifle and a pike. So I guess I gotta get that after the middle M city.

We want to keep stone island right? Because Ghandi is bombarding it with three frigs, and could invade it in two turns if he has a galleon in the fog. Maybe we should fortify it?

I'll play the rest of my set tomorrow.

Doh!

I knew I forgot something! Isa attacked that city in my turnset, so I moved the Cavalry there to deter her from trying again. Then Erkon was talking about a spare Cavalry and how to use it on Gaziantep and I just kept nodding and thinking that it was a good idea. :hammer2:

So it is all Erkons fault after all...

Sorry for that, JERFit...

Good luck on the rest of your turnset. I am going to be travelling again until Sunday, probably with only my wifes mobile phone as a connection to this forum. So I guess any posts by me here will mean I am behaving...

LowtherCastle · May 16, 2007

Big Pig said:
capture Seville/Cordoba or Murcia (I would think re-capturing our city will be easiest and quickest)

If we leave Isa with our city and capture Murcia, won't that leave her culture borders a lot more contracted? We might prefer to do that. Also takes away her oil sooner rather than later.

Big Pig · May 16, 2007

LowtherCastle said:
If we leave Isa with our city and capture Murcia, won't that leave her culture borders a lot more contracted? We might prefer to do that. Also takes away her oil sooner rather than later.

Yes - but as we are planning on exiling her to Stone or Horse Island in the not too distant future it is not worth prolonging WW for an extra 3 or 4 turns for. If Murcia is as easy to capture as Seville/Cordoba, then fine

Erkon · May 16, 2007

Peace asap. Then we dow in 20-30 turns. But we must build units.

JERFit · May 16, 2007

Spoiler :

Ok, I decided not to finish playing because there are still some issues that need resolving, such as, recapture cordoba or take her capital, when to declare peace, and what to do in Ning-Hsia.

I won't be able to play tomorrow, so unless somebody wants to take over I'll pass it on, or you can wait for me until Friday evening here/Saturday am Europe.

I played like 3 turns I think.

Oh, and that's embarrasing, the city was taken with a musketman. Stupid musketman. >.<

LowtherCastle · May 17, 2007

Erkon said:
Peace asap. Then we dow in 20-30 turns. But we must build units.

M isn't talking yet.
Most of our units are still in Edirne.
B is about to rebuild razed city.
We don't have enough firepower (cannons) by B's capital to take it without losing our grens.
We have zero naval transport nearby.
I'd say we're looking at another 5-10 turns, unless M splits his lips.

Erkon · May 17, 2007

It's my fault! It's all my fault. PS: we must build more units...

SGOTM 04 - Murky Waters

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Deity

bringing home the bacon

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

Deity

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