SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

[klarius]

klarius Does it matter what order we OB as to how trade routes are allocated? i.e. if we OB with Askoa first does that maximize the chance of us or him establishing a trade route (now or later) between our city and Bombay?

Nothing to do with sequence or anything. The game allocates the best possible trade routes by just going down the list of cities. And BTW trade routes are not bidirectional. If we have a trade route with Bombay, Bombay may have a trade route with Cuzco instead, if that gives more income.

Ok, why you asked is probably because of another piece of folklore that trade routes would have something to do with religion spread. Nope.
Just trade connection is necessary for automatic spread.
Open borders does not help except to let missionaries in.

 

[Gnejs]

Okay. I think the camp is worth it, but I'm not sure. We should be able to get some idea of where the obelisk would be with some more info from Gnejs, right?
New York settled on T11, worked the river plains, which got farmed on T20. It has 3 archers garrisoned.

It'll grow to pop2 on T??.
Gnejs, did NY build an archer or receive all three?
We know that Washington researched Mng>BW, finishing on T15 and switching to slavery for a 1 turn revolt. He's making a ton of gold so ifhe researched Mysticism next, it's probably done.

There were two archers there when he settled. Later there were three. Are we allowed to look at old saves? If we are I could check these things. But somehow I doubt that this is allowed...

 

[Gnejs]

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW T20-T34

Note: Stopping at T34 sets up the Alpha(~T45) turnset better.

Most important goals, actions, and intent: Research Writing, optimize improvements for library, alpha

BUILD QUEUE
Workboat(8t)
Scout (4t)
library (partial)

UNIT MOVES
Garrison W warrior.
Station SE warrior for scouting with OBs.

WORKER ACTIONS
Furs camp (2 mvmt + 4t)
Mine marble (1 mvmt + 4t)
Mine stone (partial)

CITY MM
T20-T24 as is
T25 switch deer to fur
T26 pop3; work deer
T27 wb done>scout
T28 2nd nets laid; switch deer to crabs
T29 ...
T30 Writing done>Alpha, OBs, send SE warrior scouting East coast (Toku dead-end--save scout for west coast. Or?)
T31 Scout done>library
T32 pop4; work marble mine
T33 ...
T34 ...

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Keep the peace
Open borders immediately

TRADE SCREEN ACTIONS
Monitor AI war plans each turn
Monitor AI attitudes for shifts each turn

OTHERS
Research: Writing>Alpha (partial)
Civic change: None
Religion change: Will stop and discuss if religion spreads.
Mid-turnset break: T29 after Writing complete
Monitor NY each turn for an obelisk or religion spread.

Notes: I tested different variations and the safest route I found, considering we might lose the furs at any time, is furcamp>marblemine>stonemine because this enables us to get the library done fastest and still get ALpha on T45 (T46?). Please let me know if anyone finds a better sequence.

Is it possible to micromanage for getting both scout and writing done on T30? And would this give us a library one turn faster?

Why mine the marble? Isn't it better to mine the stone first? We are in no hurry to get a stone quarry, but a marble quarry will be among the first tasks for our worker after Alpha.

 

[LowtherCastle]

There were two archers there when he settled. Later there were three. Are we allowed to look at old saves? If we are I could check these things. But somehow I doubt that this is allowed...

Of course you can look at old saves. That's why I save them. YOu just can't play them forward, of course. Same as always, no irreversible moves.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is it possible to micromanage for getting both scout and writing done on T30? And would this give us a library one turn faster?

Why mine the marble? Isn't it better to mine the stone first? We are in no hurry to get a stone quarry, but a marble quarry will be among the first tasks for our worker after Alpha.

I don't have a save to test it precisely with, because mine has 15 too much. I can definitely get the scout done a turn earlier. I was slowing it down to produce more commerce. Since it looks like we can't manage T45 anyway, we may have some beakers to spare.

 

[klarius]

I can manage T45 alpha T41 library by leaving out the wb.
I just build the scout working clams with and w/o nets. Switch from unnetted clams to fur when camped. Switch to wb with 1 hammer to go, work now furs and both clams.
Switch back to scout turn 8 to get the overflow into library and still continue with 2 clams and furs.
Meanwhile the worker mines stone, then camps deer.
After growth to 4 add stone mine. When deer camped switch from unnetted clams to deer.
After library completes 2 scientists with both clams or clam and deer at slight starvation.

Attach a save which should have the same state as our real one.

 

[Gnejs]

Please remind me, how do the research discounts for known AIs that have the tech work? We have met quite few AI compared to some of the test games. Could this be a reason for LCs missing 15 beakers?

 

[klarius]

Please remind me, how do the research discounts for known AIs that have the tech work? We have met quite few AI compared to some of the test games. Could this be a reason for LCs missing 15 beakers?

18 civs means 30/18 % = 5/3 % per civ rounded down.
6 civs known and knowing a tech is 10% that may have been a bpt on hunting.
AH we researched at 13 bpt so 5 civs will give one bpt (quite possible as all have both prerequisites).

 

[Gnejs]

I can manage T45 alpha T41 library by leaving out the wb.
I just build the scout working clams with and w/o nets. Switch from unnetted clams to fur when camped. Switch to wb with 1 hammer to go, work now furs and both clams.
Switch back to scout turn 8 to get the overflow into library and still continue with 2 clams and furs.
Meanwhile the worker mines stone, then camps deer.
After growth to 4 add stone mine. When deer camped switch from unnetted clams to deer.
After library completes 2 scientists with both clams or clam and deer at slight starvation.

Attach a save which should have the same state as our real one.

Brilliant, klarius!

The "cost" seems to be that we connect the fur 1-2 turns before growing to pop 5. Assuming we get to keep the fur that long, of course.

 

[klarius]

Brilliant, klarius!

The "cost" seems to be that we connect the fur 1-2 turns before growing to pop 5. Assuming we get to keep the fur that long, of course.

We can (and should to speed up wb) then sacrifice a few scientist turns after alphabet to grow faster. So the cost is really some scientist turns and by that a small delay on academy.
I don't think that's a lot. In my top game I didn't use library scientists at all, but build academy only with GLib scientists, to get up granary and lighthouse fast.

Edit:
There is still a little margin on beakers in my method. I'm still looking for a way to do it with library on T40.

 

[Gnejs]

We can (and should to speed up wb) then sacrifice a few scientist turns after alphabet to grow faster. So the cost is really some scientist turns and by that a small delay on academy.
I don't think that's a lot. In my top game I didn't use library scientists at all, but build academy only with GLib scientists, to get up granary and lighthouse fast.

True.

One thing I have been thinking about is whether we should use the first GS on an academy or if we should lightbulb Philosophy instead. Assuming that we have a religion and can run Pacifism this may be more beaker-efficient than doing it the other way around. I haven't checked the timing of it though.

 

[Gnejs]

Of course you can look at old saves. That's why I save them. YOu just can't play them forward, of course. Same as always, no irreversible moves.

2. The list of saves should not be a regular place for you to visit as a team member. You should not be going back to look at old saves during the game.

Guess you will have to change your habits on this.

 

[LowtherCastle]

There is still a little margin on beakers in my method. I'm still looking for a way to do it with library on T40.

I see no margin without furs from T41 and if we lose them T40 or earlier I seee you needing extra beakers to still make T45.

And the cost is more than what Gnejs mentioned. wb>scout(T30) is 8 beakers short of T45 and I can't find them anywhere, but it also has the wb done, +6 without any need to sacrifice more, and 20h into a wkr on T45. The second worker will come in handy. Do you think the timing of Alpha is that critical?

 

[klarius]

I see no margin without furs from T41 and if we lose them T40 or earlier I seee you needing extra beakers to still make T45.

And the cost is more than what Gnejs mentioned. wb>scout(T30) is 8 beakers short of T45 and I can't find them anywhere, but it also has the wb done, +6 without any need to sacrifice more, and 20h into a wkr on T45. The second worker will come in handy. Do you think the timing of Alpha is that critical?

Yes!
And I don't see the second worker needed at all, BTW.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yes!
And I don't see the second worker needed at all, BTW.

Okay. Let me know if you make any more improvements and I'll revise my PPP tomorrow. Thanks for the save.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Guess you will have to change your habits on this.

Guess again.

Spoiler :

I can't figure out what this is in response to, but I definitely would like a clarifcation. In any Civ game I play, I make saves and refer back to them to check to see changes in status. I might want to see how AI attitudes have changed or when a border expansion happened, or what units an AI had in a city that my scouting was looking into.

Can you possibly be saying that's a no no?

Doing that is allowed, but the same rules apply to playing forward from there as for (p)replaying from a current save: DON'T DO IT. Given that, and given that the uploaded saves are only letting you take a peek every ten turns, on average, the amount of useful information to be gleaned is somewhat limited. So we as the staff would not expect to see old saves downloaded often, no.

Yes, of course--no irreversible actions. I'm not even talking abut downloading, anyway. I'm talking about me and my team members referring to saves that we make, turn by turn, as we play. SO that's okay, right?

Yes, it is.

 

[klarius]

Well, all my tries for speeding up library ended in alphabet T46. So no improvement.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I got them both--Lib T40, Alpha T45, using a variant of your plan. I can only get 9 scientist-turns instead of 10, but the wb is also done on T45. I mined both rocks first, plus I had to work the deer for two extra turns right before and after Writing. I also pastured the sheep instead of the deer, but I'm not sure that counted. Maybe.

 

[FiveAces]

True.

One thing I have been thinking about is whether we should use the first GS on an academy or if we should lightbulb Philosophy instead. Assuming that we have a religion and can run Pacifism this may be more beaker-efficient than doing it the other way around. I haven't checked the timing of it though.

If we're getting Lit and drama before CoL, won't we get the 1st GS well before we can research Philo?

On the religion - if we bulb Philo early, we will most likely found Tao, but if that is our only religion, running it will come at the expense of relations with the hindu civs. And if it's not then we'll be less likely to have hindu spread to us (assuming that also isn't a bit of folklore like the "religion spreads by trade routes" bit I previously believed).

That being said, I guess it's all about beakers, so if bulbing Philo is the more efficient route it's certainly worth considering.

 

[Gnejs]

Guess again.

Thanks for clearing that out.


New York was settled on T11 and completed an archer T15. It has been working a plains forest the whole time. That is 27 base hammers, minus whatever the cost of an Archer is for a Deity AI. Could it be building a worker or settler now?