SGOTM 08 - One Short Straw

[TheMeInTeam]

Well it's not like it would be hard in the least to repulse any attack by him. No reason to rush out an attack.

If he is on a different continent that has other AIs, his chances of attacking us aren't spectacular, and galley raids from the AI have got to be some of the most pitiful efforts in all of Civ IV. I don't think we need to worry about shaka too much, especially if he has other targets he hates more. The EP shows he met someone else?

I guess it wouldn't matter either way. Iso shaka won't tech well, it'll be a while before his attacks become too threatening. We just can't leave coastal cities with lone warriors defending near him .

 

[mdy]

Well it's not like it would be hard in the least to repulse any attack by him. No reason to rush out an attack.

If he is on a different continent that has other AIs, his chances of attacking us aren't spectacular, and galley raids from the AI have got to be some of the most pitiful efforts in all of Civ IV. I don't think we need to worry about shaka too much, especially if he has other targets he hates more. The EP shows he met someone else?

But Shaka is on our continent and that civ he met may have been us. Even if he has met someone else the chances of him attacking us are very high because of our low power rating. If we didn`t attack him we would still have to invest a lot in a defensive force, it is far more effective to destroy him relativly quickly.

 

[TDK]

If he is on a different continent that has other AIs, his chances of attacking us aren't spectacular, and galley raids from the AI have got to be some of the most pitiful efforts in all of Civ IV. I don't think we need to worry about shaka too much, especially if he has other targets he hates more. The EP shows he met someone else?

Please post some screenies of the lay of the land. Does Shaka know anyone else (EP spending)?

I'm not sure about the EP spending, how can one see if he met another civ?

Your above comments make it sound like you don't look at the game before posting. Do you guys know that every player is allowed to load up the latest save as long as one doesn't change anything?

TDK

 

[Diamondeye]

Yes I know but I am only at a computer with civ every second week so I'll easily get lost without some assistance those weeks.

The way you see if he has met another civ is to see if he has less EP towards us than we have towards him (because, per automation, the AI splits its EP even (all weights=0) in earlygame), so if he has met someone else, he would be spending 2 EP on us and 2 on the other civ while we spend 4 on him because hes the only one we know.

 

[mdy]

Actually he has more EP on us than we do, but he raised his espionage slider around 2080 B.C. so he must have met at least 1 civ by then

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not sure about the EP spending, how can one see if he met another civ?

Your above comments make it sound like you don't look at the game before posting. Do you guys know that every player is allowed to load up the latest save as long as one doesn't change anything?

TDK

I...thought that was the case but wasn't sure. It's my first SG and time using HoF . I didn't want to do anything that would get us DQ'd.

Either way, I've been going with work/school the past few days but am off this weekend, so now that I know for *sure* that I can look at it, I will.

 

[llib_rm]

The way you see if he has met another civ is to see if he has less EP towards us than we have towards him (because, per automation, the AI splits its EP even (all weights=0) in earlygame), so if he has met someone else, he would be spending 2 EP on us and 2 on the other civ while we spend 4 on him because hes the only one we know.

Thanks, I did not know this...

 

[llib_rm]

If we didn`t attack him we would still have to invest a lot in a defensive force, it is far more effective to destroy him relativly quickly.

I have not looked at the save, but I generally agree with this strategy. Take Shaka out first and quickly so we can concentrate on infrastructure/research.

Edit:
I looked at the save. Nice job folks!

The CS slingshot could come in around T76. It seems the limiting factor is researching CoL.

I think we need another worker. We need to get the Cu connected, marble quarried (unless we are settling on...), and Hari (#2) would benefit with a farm. Can we squeeze a worker between the GL & Oracle build queue?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The terrain makes it look like taking on shaka would be somewhat time-consuming from a marching-towards-capitol standpoint. Is our intent here to keep any of these cities, or just burn them all except the capitol?

We're in excellent shape to get wonders but in sad shape for an axe rush (an axe rush would typically have 6+ axes already made by now). I'm one of the more aggressive players on this forum, happily spamming cities and units while sagging into a tech hole in many games. It's monarch so we can probably kill him in spite of a late start (Shaka's not exactly a prime candidate for 1 AD feudalism), but is it worth what we're paying should we do it?

I think the answer depends on his land. The less land he can expand into, the less inclined I'd be to axe rush him. If he's got a lot of room he's far too dangerous to leave alone. Shaka attacking from 4-5 cities is pretty pitiful, even if his ibuildunitprob is 40. We could shred anything he'd make with minimal force.

Bit of a tough call...I actually vote no-go on the axe rush since we're *really* behind on it and at least to me it seems also short on workers. Where are we going to get the hammers to expand on top of this and keep our tech rate up w/o losing wonders?

 

[mdy]

We're in excellent shape to get wonders but in sad shape for an axe rush (an axe rush would typically have 6+ axes already made by now). I'm one of the more aggressive players on this forum, happily spamming cities and units while sagging into a tech hole in many games. It's monarch so we can probably kill him in spite of a late start (Shaka's not exactly a prime candidate for 1 AD feudalism), but is it worth what we're paying should we do it?

This is not a problem. CS + chopping will allow us to build up an army very quickly, and we would be very close to construction so our attack could be supported by cats/elephants. Other than stonehenge/GWall/GLighthouse and Oracle the only wonder the AI managed to build by 1 A.D. is the hanging gardens in 1 test game. We can easily afford to rush Shaka and get all the important wonders- Thsi will leave us in a much stronger position, bothe economicly and militarily than just concentrating on wonders. The logistics look perfectly reasonable, espesially if we expand our road network.

It would be worth keeping all his cities. The Great Lighthouse means that they will all make a profit. Another worker would be useful soon, but we can quickly get one built in our third city.

Shaka attacking from 4-5 cities is pretty pitiful, even if his ibuildunitprob is 40. We could shred anything he'd make with minimal force.

In time he could still build up a big force which would require a significant number of units to defend ourselves against. Why accept this drain on our resources when we can convert it into an advantage by destroying Shaka.

edit: A plan:

capital: Great Lighthouse-Oracle. The worker can hook up the copper once the forest is chopped.

2nd city: warrior-barracks-axe

3rd city: worker-workboat

I suggest pausing after we have revolted to bureacracy. Once we have scouted Shakas capital we will know how difficult he will be to take out.

 

[Diamondeye]

Hmm. I have to agree that our main focus here should be the wonders and not axerushing. Otoh, Shaka can be PITA, even on Monarch diff, if he has enough land. I really don't know. I'll take a good look at the save some time tomorrow and try to get an idea of what to do from then.

 

[mdy]

I think that we are in danger of being sidetracked by shiny wonders, and missing what is really important to win this SGOTM. We should be trying to maximize the number of wonders per turn played. To do this we do not have to build all of them ourselves as we can capture them from the AI. The limiting factor will be our economy as that will determine how far into the tech tree we get before the extra no of turns needed to research the techs for wonders outways the benefit of the extra wonder. We therefore only really need to build wonders that will improve our economy, or will come too late for an AI to build ( building wonders for extra GP points, espesially Gprophets is useful, but not essential).

A axe/cat/elephant rush and building a lot of wonders are not mutually exclusive strategies. We can destroy Shaka, build all the important early wonders (and a few of the less important ones). We might (or might not) miss out on a minor wonder by attacking Shaka, but if the AI builds something like the Statue of Zeus then it really does not matter - We can capture it later and it saves us the hammers.

Capturing Shaka`s cities early will deliver a big boost to our economy, increasing our wonders per turn score significantly. Also if his capital is a decent production centre we would not have to use our capital to build units in future wars, so it can focus on wonders/infastructure.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I agree in getting rid of shaka post-construction/HBR. War elephants are a scary, dominating force pre-longbows and viable even then. IMO that's probably the ideal time/way to take him out.

We have to be careful though is all I'm saying. His land is very poorly developed ATM and to be honest we're low enough on workers that our own land probably needs more. Those cities are also distant so if they're not developed keeping them could slow our tech pace considerably. Normally I'd want to keep most of the cities I take but if it's jungle and some more jungle without great tiles to work at first I might suggest razing at least 1-2 of his cities.

Either way I say we get rid of him, it's just a question of timing. He's not gonna build any wonders for us though, so no point in delaying too much...just enough to make sure capturing/keeping the cities helps as much as possible perhaps.

 

[ungy]

I'm still cought up in RL and haven't been able to get the game working with vista but I would say it's definately better to remove Shaka than build second tier wonders. As MDY points out, with the GLH we can afford it.

At this point the game is not about wonder count, it's about getting maximum economic expansion. Building key wonders is part of that, taking Shaka's land is as well.

 

[TDK]

We will have to build up an army to counter Shaka no matter what, so we might as well go on the offense. War elephants will probably be countered by Shakas Impies, so they might not be ideal in this situation.

This is a game of economy and reaching the end of the tech tree first, so we should only build wonders that help us achieve that aim. Right now that's the Pyramids and Great Library IMO. We should also look to the Temple of Artemis - it goes very well with the Great Lighthouse and helps us pop Prophets.

TDK

 

[Diamondeye]

I think taking out Shaka with Ellies and (lots of) Catties is the most viable solution. I will not be able to pick up a save before wednesday, by the way.

 

[Levgre]

I think we should make it a point to quickly settle any good city spots. From what I can tell, there is only 1 more for now, north by the cow and clam. Later we'll be able to get some pretty good slow-growing cottage cities by the lake, although that is probably after the shaka invasion... it takes time to cut down all that jungle.

What should our tech path be after civil service?
Metal Casting is tempting for the colossus with copper... we should make sure we get that before anyone else.
Aesthetics -> Literature also, for great library and Parthenon. Hariharalaya could probably build one of the wonders with its pig and ivory, and plenty of hills avaiable.


I'm not sure if we need the pyramids, although we should get it if it's not a big hassle. But I think other wonders would be more cost-effective. We do not have a great amount of luxury resources so our growth could be limited with representation, while we have a good amount of health resources and are also expansive.
Right now it looks like the happy cap would be 10 base with no more happiness in sight, except for buildings.

 

[mdy]

What should our tech path be after civil service?
Metal Casting is tempting for the colossus with copper... we should make sure we get that before anyone else.
Aesthetics -> Literature also, for great library and Parthenon. Hariharalaya could probably build one of the wonders with its pig and ivory, and plenty of hills avaiable.

I was thinking contruction-horseback riding to unlock cats/elephants. The AI tends to take a very long time to get the collosus so we can easily afford to delay it (we would not have the spare production to build it anyway).

I don`t think the happy cap will be a problem with representation. A forge/market/religion/temple will raise it to 14, and we will want all of these at some point anyway. We may also capture a happy resource from Shaka, or find one on an island.

 

[Levgre]

ah, forgot we were getting Confucianism. With that we should be fine

 

[TDK]

So I guess we finish the Warrior and start a Barracks in 2nd city as we need some forces for Shaka no matter what. We settle 3rd city on Marble.
We should play until we reach Oracle and CS and then revolt to Representation and Slavery before uploading the game. We can then more realistically assess what we want to do with our boom economy.

I can do that tomorrow if no one else takes it before then, in the interest of moving the game forward.

TDK