SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

[ZPV]

The barb workers won't vanish. I'd planned to capture them at my leisure, but I'll try to capture them this turn. Of course, if a para loses attacking Hun, one of them may be a little delayed. I'll take another look at Joao's workers, and try to capture as many of them as possible.

edit: yes, I'll do it your way around Hun. I will capture the city first, but then capture both workers. I'll take Portuguese workers as I can get them, but I don't expect a dazzling success in this area because we can't capture Coimbra (It's founded on Oil, which we don't want)

 

[LowtherCastle]

I wouldn't trust the barbs to not kill their own workers. The worker at Assyrian that Erkon marked at the end of his turnset finished the windmill and then next turn he vanished. I suppose it's possible that he boarded a galley, but otherwise he became extinct.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I wouldn't go for Atlantis now, but concentrate on Joao. Guimares and Lisbon should be captured as early as possible, Atlantis might even be too early.

Consider to airlift a missionary into HC's new cty. Either to convert him, or have him go free religion.

Also a question if we should convert Hammi. Note currently Joao and Hammi could pass an annoying resolution. We either have to have more votes or weaken their block (or both by going for Lisbon fast).

Capturing Lisbon T129 and Guimaeres T130 is surely attractive. With their high population, aren't they supposed to have more than three garrisions?

 

[LowtherCastle]

KT frigate: you could chop the frigate to get it a turn sooner.

 

[LowtherCastle]

edit: I'll use the spy in Faro to force Joao into Caste System for about 260EP. That should prevent unwanted whipping of his cities.

I don't have a ton of experience with espionage, but I've just studied this situation a bit. Our % with Joao is steady at 113% for the last 3 turns. The costs in Faro are also steady. We can't do the civics change till next turn anyway, so it will probably be 60% of 361 = 216 EPs. We'll have 144, so we'll need ~72. At 10% we get 70 right now, so +4 for a spy in Babylon and you should have enough. YOu just have to make sure at the end of the turn, your MM hasn't lowered the 10% below 72 total EPs. Of course, it's always risky to cut it so close, but wtf, life's full gambles.

 

[Erkon]

MW is currently running -2 health, with grocer it's +2, with dear it's +3. Hanging Garden gives another scientist and MW will starve one food. Please Windmill coal again

Factory + cplant give -5 health, so MW is then running -2 health. How about Genetics after AL? The +3 health will be very useful in many cities. And then we can complete the forge for +/- 0 health in MW.

Factory + cplant generates another 30 gold when building wealth. It will take four turns to build and MW can build 74 gold right now. 4*74/30=10 turns break even. Then we gain 30 gpt.

I suggest we build the forge, factory and cplant in MW, and go Genetics after AL.

EDIT: Run as many merchants as possible in MR while still growing one pop/turn. Merchant is better than 2f3c coastal tile.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Gnejs, when are you going to prepare your Grand Plan for building all the Space Parts in 1 turn so we can plan everything else?

 

[Erkon]

Gnejs and I will go to Crete on Friday 19th to Friday 26th, and there we will have plenty of time to plan the end game together with Mr Scotch as long as we can convince Wife#1, Wife#2, Kid#1, Kid#2, Kid#3, Kid#4 that eight o'clock is a suitable time for going to bed, and given that we can memorize the civ stats and our map, since we'll be off line. Can you wait until then?

 

[ZPV]

Factory + Coal Plant = -7 health.
In BtS, clean power = -2 health, coal power = -4 health
So the gains aren't as much, especially as we will have to run 1 pop less in MW, losing gold on merchant missions.

 

[ZPV]

The PPP is nearly done.
Things I still need to decide on:
> Where to settle Vienna
> Worker moves in Africa
> Where I'm going to get a bunch of conf misses
> Vassals' research
> a couple of builds

 

[ZPV]

@LC (re post 1463):
Guim t130, Lisbon t129? How can you do that?

Also, is one of the forests in KT prechopped? The Frigate will take 1t after the Lab anyway.

 

[Erkon]

Factory + Coal Plant = -7 health.
In BtS, clean power = -2 health, coal power = -4 health
So the gains aren't as much, especially as we will have to run 1 pop less in MW, losing gold on merchant missions.

I didn't know that power poluted I've never seen that in the Civilopedia

You are of course correct although I had to test this in WB to believe you

Still, please complete the forge after Taj since it's already half finished and we have the health for it.

 

[ZPV]

Sure, I'll do Forge after Taj

 

[klarius]

I'm missing Christian temples where possible. 2 hpt and soon the possibility to run a 2hpt priest.

If you really want to use spy points you should run a spy specialist in Babylon. Maybe also build an Intelligence agency somewhere.

 

[ZPV]

OK, I'll put some Temples in there where I can.
Spy in Babylon - yes. Any chance to generate a non-caste GP is good.

 

[Gnejs]

Skip the temples. They will hardly pay off by the time our spaceship is complete.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Gnejs, I think

you screwed your Altantis calculations all up​

and you'll have to

do them again...or no vacation​

Know whatchya forgot? All the added trade route money for having an offshore city with pop28, pop27, pop26, pop25, in all our cities... I hope you enjoy calculating all that... and no estimations

 

[LowtherCastle]

Notes on your PPP:

It looks awesome to me! A few thoughts:

City Builds
FF: obs-Christian temple?!! (=+3hpt, with temple+priest =+7hpt, pays off very fast)
KT: lab-frig-galleon for transport-Christian or conf misses?!!!
Bab: NE-bank-uni-forge-WS -or- NE-bank-uni-grocer-mkt-obs (WS first is only marginally better and requires +5 banks)
SWC: Moai-(frigate)-grocer (After Moai, don't we work all coastal and try to grow to pop17 before Elect? Otherwise, why Moai here?)

Wkrs
Dur-K: I'm thinking we need at least 3-5 more farms here (I jumped the gun on watermills) to grow the pop rapidly before the hammer economy kicks in with factories. Dur-K will be a big producer within 20t. Have enough workers here to pre-mill the farms.
Marble: Needs two more windmills and can borrow the C1 for now.

MR
We do NOT have any extra food here, in fact we're a bit short, but we'll still get to pop27 when the grocer is done.

Joao
Are you still planning to convert him to CS?

Babylon
I don't think it pays off at all to run a spec instead of the iron and I doubt the spec for plainshillmine pays off either. At least not before we finish NE-bank-uni.

Vienna
I like wheat-2W. With one wkr, chop wheat-N into asap granary, then farm wheat and prioritize growth. Always have a new farm ready for pop growth while chopping the levee. A second wkr would be helpful for the levee chop.

T129-Lisbon T130-Guim
All four galleons chain through Nongoma to Joao, but the dates are off by one turn, because I was thinking there was a galleon in Nongoma. So you could attack one city on T130 and one on T131, your choice which first, probably Guim is smarter, so you can put all three into port on the same turn for paradropping next. The problem is, you'd have to send an airship to Guim immediately to see if they have 3 or fewer garrisons. This would also force you to use the Atlantis galleon to pick up units to attack Atlantis a turn later than you're planning.

This also complicates defending MR on land (frigate is on time), so I like your plan better. Why risk an SoD from Joao? Why risk Atlantis getting more units? Why risk not having enough units for Guim and Lisbon? I would say that, imo, only Guim and Lisbon really matter. Get them, and continue on as long as MR doesn't get pillaged. If you can't hold the SoD off, vassalize Joao and we're good to go.

KT
No pre-chop. I didn't realize the frigate was done in 1t...

Other
Your Antarctic explorer got hijacked to defend at Altantis... We might want to build another airship to explore much of the south, including those two mystery tiles in Australia. Or whatever...

klarius' idea on Christian Temples is very interesting. They may pay off for cities with low hammers, high-food (FF, Nongoma, Ndond, Nodwengo), for our hammer cities, and also maybe for our space-parts cities. We don't necessarily need the temples now, though, but we need to spread Christianity to chosen cities before we leave OrgRel. I think they might pay off if we build the misses in cities with no production bonuses (KT) and put them in cities that will have prod bonuses (C1, Ulu, Morocco). But I haven't actually done any comparisons. If Gnejs can demonstrate they're non-optimal, then fine.

Edit: I don't see any other good sites for settlements other than Austrailia and you need a galleon for that.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Things I still need to decide on:
> Worker moves in Africa

Imo, the priorities are: uMu/Ulu/Morocco/(Hun)/Nongoma/Nodwengo. Other cities get 1 worker max.

Improve tiles for max growth in all cities. One city could become an offshore trade route city--probably Nongoma because it's hammer poor and needs lots of health bldgs. Nongoma could use four fp farms by border expansion, if possible. Atlantis can be the other offshore trade route city.

When a city can grow 1pop per turn, then build workshops.

 

[ZPV]

Notes on your PPP:

It looks awesome to me! A few thoughts:

City Builds
FF: obs-Christian temple?!! (=+3hpt, with temple+priest =+7hpt, pays off very fast)
KT: lab-frig-galleon for transport-Christian or conf misses?!!!
Bab: NE-bank-uni-forge-WS -or- NE-bank-uni-grocer-mkt-obs (WS first is only marginally better and requires +5 banks)
SWC: Moai-(frigate)-grocer (After Moai, don't we work all coastal and try to grow to pop17 before Elect? Otherwise, why Moai here?)

FF: yes
Bab: No WS, becuase of 2 national wonders already there.
SWC: yes, but if I have to work windmills for a turn to get the Frigate in time, then I will
KT: I'm thinking of an airport instead of Galleon (should be 3 or 4t with chop), and then build 1 conf. miss/turn, to arilift to cities that need to get off the ground quickly.

Wkrs
Dur-K: I'm thinking we need at least 3-5 more farms here (I jumped the gun on watermills) to grow the pop rapidly before the hammer economy kicks in with factories. Dur-K will be a big producer within 20t. Have enough workers here to pre-mill the farms.
Marble: Needs two more windmills and can borrow the C1 for now.

Dur-K: OK, I'll build a few more farms. I'll try to do it on squares which will later get workshops. I'm hoping to move some of the workers on, but there will be more coming from Nippur.

MR
We do NOT have any extra food here, in fact we're a bit short, but we'll still get to pop27 when the grocer is done.

I'll go for max growth, unless someone can show that we still get to pop27 in 5 turns without it. (HG, remember)

Joao
Are you still planning to convert him to CS?

yes, but I'll wait for 50% discount.

Babylon
I don't think it pays off at all to run a spec instead of the iron and I doubt the spec for plainshillmine pays off either. At least not before we finish NE-bank-uni.

OK, I'll work them both, but that might change for the odd turn for MM reasons.

Vienna
I like wheat-2W. With one wkr, chop wheat-N into asap granary, then farm wheat and prioritize growth. Always have a new farm ready for pop growth while chopping the levee. A second wkr would be helpful for the levee chop.

I also like wheat 2W, as it doesn't share tiles with Assyrian.

T129-Lisbon T130-Guim
All four galleons chain through Nongoma to Joao, but the dates are off by one turn, because I was thinking there was a galleon in Nongoma. So you could attack one city on T130 and one on T131, your choice which first, probably Guim is smarter, so you can put all three into port on the same turn for paradropping next. The problem is, you'd have to send an airship to Guim immediately to see if they have 3 or fewer garrisons. This would also force you to use the Atlantis galleon to pick up units to attack Atlantis a turn later than you're planning.

This also complicates defending MR on land (frigate is on time), so I like your plan better. Why risk an SoD from Joao? Why risk Atlantis getting more units? Why risk not having enough units for Guim and Lisbon? I would say that, imo, only Guim and Lisbon really matter. Get them, and continue on as long as MR doesn't get pillaged. If you can't hold the SoD off, vassalize Joao and we're good to go.

Other
Your Antarctic explorer got hijacked to defend at Altantis... We might want to build another airship to explore much of the south, including those two mystery tiles in Australia. Or whatever...

I'll send two galleons (one east, one west) after they've transported troops to Joao. Similarly an airship can scan those last two tiles from Cuzco, I believe.

klarius' idea on Christian Temples is very interesting. They may pay off for cities with low hammers, high-food (FF, Nongoma, Ndond, Nodwengo), for our hammer cities, and also maybe for our space-parts cities. We don't necessarily need the temples now, though, but we need to spread Christianity to chosen cities before we leave OrgRel. I think they might pay off if we build the misses in cities with no production bonuses (KT) and put them in cities that will have prod bonuses (C1, Ulu, Morocco). But I haven't actually done any comparisons. If Gnejs can demonstrate they're non-optimal, then fine.

I think they'll probably pay off for space-part cities. We don't have the infrastructure to spread it en masse, and IMO getting confu to fast-growing cities is a higher priority.

Edit: I don't see any other good sites for settlements other than Austrailia and you need a galleon for that.

Australia won't be settled under my watch. Sending settler(s) there will pay off, but not while our cities should be doing important things like growing and building factories