SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I think we should keep our borders closed with Zara, so he cant expand behind our culture.
I would also keep running the scientists, as they won't speed up granary/settler production, but will delay the academy.
We will have 1 worker per new city, and the current two won't need any improvements except one chop in the capital, the stone, and maybe a floodplains farm/plains hill mine in Bombay so lack of workers won't be a problem.
I would also keep running the scientists, as they won't speed up granary/settler production, but will delay the academy.
We will have 1 worker per new city, and the current two won't need any improvements except one chop in the capital, the stone, and maybe a floodplains farm/plains hill mine in Bombay so lack of workers won't be a problem.
I also think that we have enough workers, with some whipping we don't need that many tiles and most new cities will have seafood. Plus our workers are, well, fast 
Zara won't expand behind our cultural borders anyway, OB or not. I'd just like to have a closer eye on him...
Zara won't expand behind our cultural borders anyway, OB or not. I'd just like to have a closer eye on him...
here I am open. We can work sci or hammers, up to what you think priority.
I believe even with out port we will get trade routes try rive-coast connection.
All we need to do is to build 2 tie of road to east of capital.
This 2 tie road will connect as to Zara and if we open border and explore mouth of river(his capital) to coast and all our costal cities (which will be almost all new cities)
2 tie road + sailing will connect everything.
Actually do we need 2 tie road? Zara connected to as somehow.
why close borders? In BTS I never see AI cross cultural borders by settler, only by settler in Galey. So I do not think there is mach dange, zara still has river to settle.
I did not open borders just so not give him trade routes when we do not have any.
shyuhe
Deity
The pace of posts in this thread never ceases to amaze me 
Zara won't settle behind us as long as we have a contiguous cultural border blocking him. He will send troops through to attack barb cities though.
While I understand the desire to send out exploration WBs, I think setting up our GP farm is more important. The 2-fish is just that good - I can't see any reason to put off that city, especially since we can send the Bombay settler to the northern coast for the exploration WB. The marble/clam and rice/FP will require additional workers so I'm ok putting those two off until a bit later. I think we're all in agreement that we have 6 cities - Delhi, Bombay, 2-fish, some wheat city, marble/clam, and rice/FP.
My two settlement orders are 2-fish -- wheat (coast) -- marble/clam -- rice/FP OR 2-fish -- rice/FP -- marble/clam -- wheat. The latter pattern does run the risk that Zara takes the wheat spot but it gets our stronger cities up earlier. We can always use the crab city as our sixth, as it has forests for a library chop and we can whip the university.
Espionage - I'd like to keep enough on Zara to see his research but I'm ok with putting the rest on Justinian.
edit: also, we need to save our first GE for the UN. I think the GL is worth building in Delhi after it gets the pyramids. It'll give it a few shots at an engineer (from pyramids pollution) or a scientist, and may be able to pop a few out in competition with our GP farm.
Zara won't settle behind us as long as we have a contiguous cultural border blocking him. He will send troops through to attack barb cities though.
While I understand the desire to send out exploration WBs, I think setting up our GP farm is more important. The 2-fish is just that good - I can't see any reason to put off that city, especially since we can send the Bombay settler to the northern coast for the exploration WB. The marble/clam and rice/FP will require additional workers so I'm ok putting those two off until a bit later. I think we're all in agreement that we have 6 cities - Delhi, Bombay, 2-fish, some wheat city, marble/clam, and rice/FP.
My two settlement orders are 2-fish -- wheat (coast) -- marble/clam -- rice/FP OR 2-fish -- rice/FP -- marble/clam -- wheat. The latter pattern does run the risk that Zara takes the wheat spot but it gets our stronger cities up earlier. We can always use the crab city as our sixth, as it has forests for a library chop and we can whip the university.
Espionage - I'd like to keep enough on Zara to see his research but I'm ok with putting the rest on Justinian.
edit: also, we need to save our first GE for the UN. I think the GL is worth building in Delhi after it gets the pyramids. It'll give it a few shots at an engineer (from pyramids pollution) or a scientist, and may be able to pop a few out in competition with our GP farm.
Not true - the desert means he will take the Wheat 4th at latest, since he will not be settling there no matter what, actually speeding up his Wheat-grabbage. Don't count out the Emperor settling pace, after all we're nearing 1000BC already.
Pretty much my thoughts, except I'd invert the two last in the first order, I think the FP Rice with irrigation is much better than the seafood central. The latter has a big, big chance of giving ZY the Wheat site but as some noted that might not be the end of the world. Its positioning is kinda annoying since we can't get Coast&Cow or Irrigation&PH. However the purpose of that city is to get WBs NOW and then just support by doing some
-duty - for this settling on the coast PH isn't bad at all. If ZY settles in an awkward way I wouldn't count out settling 2S of the Oasis as well, more pop can only mean an easier Diplo voting.If for we can/want only get Settlers OR Workers, I'd go for the Wheat-Coast 4th as that doesn't require that much of a worker investment - 6 turn WB without any worker action at all.
shyuhe
Deity
Pretty much my thoughts, except I'd invert the two last in the first order, I think the FP Rice with irrigation is much better than the seafood central. The latter has a big, big chance of giving ZY the Wheat site but as some noted that might not be the end of the world. Its positioning is kinda annoying since we can't get Coast&Cow or Irrigation&PH. However the purpose of that city is to get WBs NOW and then just support by doing some
I was thinking that the wheat/coast has enough forests to chop out the workboats necessary for the clam spot. So it will allow us to get that city up and running sooner as well (whereas the alternative is whipping a WB from the irrigated rice in the rice/FP spot).
If we settle the wheat/coast, will it be able to build the necessary library/university quickly? The only buildings we care about for these satellite cities are granary (whipping), library, university. And maybe a lighthouse/WB as necessary.
Well it can easily get 12-13
/t + 5 chops, so I think it should certainly get the basics and Lib/PHI-Uni fast enough, even if it pumps a couple of WBs first plus maybe some other boats. Not a great whipping city though, or good much-of-anything except short-term hammers and the Wheat.The 2 fish site is clearly the best so I think we should get it up ASAP. The marble city is probably the second best, and if we built it's workboats and the explorers in the wheat city then it could probably be brought on line quicker than just building everything in that city, so I am O.K. with 2fish-wheat-marble city.
As long as we save a couple of forests and use the whip a little we should be able to get the university built quick enough.
Another alternative is to put the Hanging Gardens there, and hire an Engineer once we have a forge built. If we don't hire any scientists after the next GP is generated this would give us a 100% chance of an engineer instead of trusting to the RNG. With Stone and bureaucracy the added pop would give us more hammers than the HG cost if it was whipped, and the extra health would be useful as we would have several cities with a large pop.
The best way to leverage bureaucracy is to work cottages, not to hire scientists in the long term, which makes Delhi sub optimal as a GP farm.
As long as we save a couple of forests and use the whip a little we should be able to get the university built quick enough.
Another alternative is to put the Hanging Gardens there, and hire an Engineer once we have a forge built. If we don't hire any scientists after the next GP is generated this would give us a 100% chance of an engineer instead of trusting to the RNG. With Stone and bureaucracy the added pop would give us more hammers than the HG cost if it was whipped, and the extra health would be useful as we would have several cities with a large pop.
The best way to leverage bureaucracy is to work cottages, not to hire scientists in the long term, which makes Delhi sub optimal as a GP farm.
it is my understanding that we never mean for capital to work as specialists gp farm.
But it can be made to be a good wanders based gp farm. whipping now or work available hills later will give as necessary production.
butild mids +HG +GL in delphi and we will have gp generation capable to push out GP time from time.
but working cottages is not the best use, using that early production bonus could be mach more effective.
But it can be made to be a good wanders based gp farm. whipping now or work available hills later will give as necessary production.
butild mids +HG +GL in delphi and we will have gp generation capable to push out GP time from time.
but working cottages is not the best use, using that early production bonus could be mach more effective.
Ok, reading through all this is kind of a chore.
Just to chime in on the settling pattern. A bit random, I know...
More after some more reading...
Edit: I'm sure I missed this part of the discussion, but why on Earth are we not in Slavery? With SPI?
Just to chime in on the settling pattern. A bit random, I know...
- I think the GP farm should be up first. It's too good a city, but it needs quite some time to produce the basics, before doing a Uni and NE.
- I'm ok with 2-fish>wheat-coast>marble-clam, except...
- Despite the need for exploring WB('s), the wheat/cow/oasis and FP sites just seem better inland. We easily have 4 more good cities for Oxford here (as shyuhe pointed out above), and cities beyond that aren't as important in a fast-tech game like this, IMHO. If the GP farm can do the first explorer WB reasonably quickly (some combination of pastured cow and whipping), then I'd be inclined to move those others inland.
- I think Zara will skip the desert pretty quickly. We saw that with Mao in the SQuickie game, and he had better land available near his capital. Emperor AI's do start expanding quite rapidly at some point in the circa-1000 BC era.
- Pyramids hurt expansion here quite a bit, IMHO. Mostly because of over-committing our available workers to stone quarry. I don't particularly like working corn outside of Delhi, or working two cottages at this stage (though I guess that may be just left over from CS sling setup). Getting a couple of chops and GH mines in there would be nice, too, with the bureau bonus. I think the hammer/whip bonus is bigger than a bit of extra commerce at this early stage. The GP farm could use an immediate cow pasture, too.
Edit: nvm this part, I just discovered a whole page of micro stuff. Have to read through that...
More after some more reading...
Edit: I'm sure I missed this part of the discussion, but why on Earth are we not in Slavery? With SPI?
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
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- 23,653
Yup, you missed it. We made a team decision to not use slavery this entire game--we wanted to give XTeam a chance. (j/k)Edit: I'm sure I missed this part of the discussion, but why on Earth are we not in Slavery? With SPI?
^ Oh, good. That makes more sense.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
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Guys, I think we're all agreed on mysty's turnset up to AH and that involves no settling decisions of any kind. At that time we'll know if we successfully spawn-busted or not. We'll also know if there is seafood east of the desert and maybe know about the clams crab area too. Then we can make the best decision going forward. Mysty, I think you should go ahead and play up to that point, whenever you're ready.
Edit: If you open borders with Zara, then the warrior has a somewhat safer path to the NE to fogbust that coast.
Edit: If you open borders with Zara, then the warrior has a somewhat safer path to the NE to fogbust that coast.
shyuhe
Deity
Agreed (10 char).
RRRaskolnikov
Goldfish
Me too
grats Mut on that amazing turn set, still trying to get everything that has been posted in the last three days (fortunatly, LC put some french words here and there so it's a bit faster)...Also amazed at BOTM 28 results boys
So I finally looked into the blocked-AI-DoW thingy now that it's almost actual, here's what I gathered.
Blocking AI expansion doesn't directly increase DoW chances. Why it makes AIs more likely to declare is that is 1) reduces the amount of cash AIs use for non-unit costs as they can't waste more cash on more cities 2) makes them build military units instead of Settlers. This increases their unitSpendingPercent (= how much % of their total costs is unit costs).
UnitSpendingPercent is a very big factor when deciding if AIs go to maxWar (the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink kind frequently showcased by Alex/Monty/Shaka). It has no effect on limitedWar. However, ZY has a quite high maxWar rating, 200, compared to the 50 of the worst nutcases (lower number means bigger war chance, NOT linearly in this case). This means that boxing him is much less likely to provoke war than it'd be to box in a dude with a lower rating, even though ZY's unitBuildProb is respectable at 30.
His limitedWar rating is relatively lower, but as said boxing in doesn't affect that directly at all. Limited war is also more likely to be averted due to attitude (for reference, ZY noWarProb is 10/50/90/100 for Annoyed/Caut/Plsd/Fnly).
So all in all I don't think he's very likely to declare even when blocked, even less so if he goes into Pleased. Here are the ratings for reference.
Miscellaneous fun fact: AIs pay less unit maintenance after they have met the human. Yeah, met.
Blocking AI expansion doesn't directly increase DoW chances. Why it makes AIs more likely to declare is that is 1) reduces the amount of cash AIs use for non-unit costs as they can't waste more cash on more cities 2) makes them build military units instead of Settlers. This increases their unitSpendingPercent (= how much % of their total costs is unit costs).
UnitSpendingPercent is a very big factor when deciding if AIs go to maxWar (the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink kind frequently showcased by Alex/Monty/Shaka). It has no effect on limitedWar. However, ZY has a quite high maxWar rating, 200, compared to the 50 of the worst nutcases (lower number means bigger war chance, NOT linearly in this case). This means that boxing him is much less likely to provoke war than it'd be to box in a dude with a lower rating, even though ZY's unitBuildProb is respectable at 30.
His limitedWar rating is relatively lower, but as said boxing in doesn't affect that directly at all. Limited war is also more likely to be averted due to attitude (for reference, ZY noWarProb is 10/50/90/100 for Annoyed/Caut/Plsd/Fnly).
So all in all I don't think he's very likely to declare even when blocked, even less so if he goes into Pleased. Here are the ratings for reference.
Spoiler :
Miscellaneous fun fact: AIs pay less unit maintenance after they have met the human. Yeah, met.
mushroomshirt
King
I say go for it too.
In other news I'll be away from civ for a few days - I'll be around but even less helpful than usual.
In other news I'll be away from civ for a few days - I'll be around but even less helpful than usual.
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