Ronnie1
Deity
I agree with this.
SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
mabraham
Deity
Some assorted observations.
I did some cleanup and additions to the map signage. New uploaded save here. I've still "got it".
Sure. On turn 159 (i.e. start of Griff's set), Vicky had none of Literature, Alphabet or MC. So we need him to look at his saved games to find out.
If we get 90
out of trading, I estimate Music would take 14 turns and Construction 7. If we get 180 out of trading, Music would take 13 turns and Construction 6.
True. A later war would also allow us to organize more troops. Say, two galleys with four catapults to land on the forest north of London, while most of the ground troops walk in from the SW or NE.
Or, an opening attack landing about five catapults next to Nottingham which bomb while land troops walk in from the south towards both Nottingham and London, and an axe pillages the iron road (no horses around). Suicide one cat on Nottingham, which falls immediately. Four cats board two galleys that turn, to be dumped next to London while the land troops reorganize next turn to apply the necessary force on London. Timing might suggest using only three cats total.
I'd suggest getting Vicky's 90 for Maths. Certainly we should hang onto Currency until there's something worthwhile to get. If we beeline Music, then I'm not worried about retaining Literature, and 190 more is nearly four turns' speed-up on Music. If we use Priesthood, Literature and Maths as necessary to get the AIs 370 we can have Music in 10 turns.
I'm not sure whether there is some merit in having the Academy in place before the Golden Age. Certain tiles produce more stuff, and
are doubled during Golden Age, but does anyone know the details?
Also, Music actually gives us a Great Artist, which we might save for a few turns before starting the Golden Age when it suits us. For example, we might not have organized our tech position suitably to get all our revolts done during the GAge. Deferring the Golden Age a bit to grow CC a bit to run more specialists for double during the GAge might be wise also.
I'm guessing not too much. She's got four units defending already...
Sure, a later war does combine with some of this sort of thing. There was an archer wandering around on Vicky's island SW of her five turns ago. We could send a trireme to find it ahead of the swordsmen galley.
Yeah, that's quite reasonable. York+lighthouse is quite useful. The larger inland water body is actually not fresh water, which is good because it means York has a lighthouse, which means the fresh water lake tiles are its food supply. London has 60% culture, and York 40%+hill. I'd think we need to plan for the axeman for the iron, at least two cats on York for bombing, with two more en route for London, and about four offensive units to plan to take out 2-3 archers in York with minimal downtime before moving on London.
Also reasonable is a three-prong move on London. Axeman to pillage the iron and walk in, four cats land on the forest to bomb (four bombardments that turn, two bombardments next turn while the other two walk onto the hill, then the final two bombardments leaving two for the suicide runs avoiding the river-crossing penalty), while axe+four swords walk from three tiles to London's SW in time to attack after the two suicide runs. This means most of our navy is heading home to pick up the next wave. London's a sure thing and we will have enough stuff left to move on York immediately.
I worldbuildered this scenario in the test game to see how it looks. I assumed no builds from Vicky, and allowing for 5 turns for fortification and correct 60% culture defence, against archer CD1+C1, archer CD1, archer and spear C1 per current status. After bombardment, a CR1 cat with/without river crossing is 29.81%/36.88% (which suggests not bothering about the river crossing if it's inconvenient), and CR1 sword is 64.74%. So, at least one suicide cat seems indicated. After one suicide cat (which does the same damage to the rest of the stack, whether or not it dies), assuming that it does enough damage to the lead archer that the next archer moves to be the prime defender, our CR1 swords are at 84.19% and 93.72% on the next two archers. So we'd certainly want to bring five attacking units. After two suicide cats (the second CR1 cat with/without river crossing is 53.80%/73.38%), swords start at 96%, so we'll probably get away with just four attacking units. Also plausible is just three cats on the forest north of London, which all bombard for two turns while the swords move in, and on the last turn we bombard one to get down to 5%, and judge whether to bombard once and suicide once, or suicide twice.
In practice, having two suicide cats and five attacking units available will provide insurance against Vicky sneaking out an axeman in the interim. So that means 3-4 cats, two axemen and four swords is the force we'd need to bring right now for near-certain success. It doesn't seem right to accept much risk, either. The insurance units for London will be units we'll need next for York, so no big deal.
If we trade for all the, then Music+Construction will take 20 turns. Then, the way to set this scenario up is to organize the 6+ axes and swords onto Vicky's island during the teching (heaps of time for an axe to walk to near the iron tile). Set up our galleys to chain out of BF through PC so that we can whip and galley-chain four catapults to the front line of the navy over four turns, and then escort two galleys and trireme to a tile near London in another four turns. Then DOW, and take three turns to capture London. Each extra galley we build probably shaves a turn off that, through lengthening the galley chain.
Yep, jugging build queues to save maintenance is worthwhile, unless we have a pressing need for only one type of unit. So, in the short term we can probably only do this in PC with sword and axe. Later, once we've got our opening cats, we can juggle between sword, axe, cat and maybe archer.
Maxing overflow is not a desirable objective of itself. They're just hammers. Delaying a whip so that two units build back-to-back to save on unit maintenance is a desirable objective, but the larger overflow is the mechanism to achieve the objective, not the objective itself. Delaying whipping a build that we want to use right now just to achieve maximum overflow is clearly wrong.
Yeah, as I said, I agonized over this last turn. It was not possible for us to organize two swords onto a galley on T171 without compromising tile usage of PC. PC had to be whipped on T169 or T170 to achieve that, and I judged it best to whip T170. So, if we want to send two swords ASAP to CGT, then we'll need to give up one turn on the Imine. If we decide not to beeline swords to CGT, then I agree that we should proceed along the lines you suggest.
To clarify, for those of us less experienced with the granary mechanism, the granary accumulates "virtual" food up to half the size of the current food bin (rounded down). Subsequent food are discarded. Then, upon growth that virtual food gets converted to actual food. So once the granary is full of virtual food, the food required for growth is about halved. A newly-built granary starts with zero virtual food. For example, at size 5 we need 45 food to grow. The granary has size 22, so if we have anywhere from 0-23 food when we build the granary, then it will be full by the time we grow to size 6. However, any point in time in that 0-23 range is just as good as any other. The difference is either not accumulating virtual food yet, or discarding virtual food once the granary is full - so no difference. So, if the rate of whipping is irrelevant, timing the whip of the granary so that after the whip there's
[pre]floor((30+size*3)/2)[/pre]
food in the bin gives us full use of the granary and maximum use of the tiles at the higher population before we whipped the granary.
The conflict between working good tiles and whipping a granary at the efficient time also creates windows where building a cheap lighthouse first is correct, which is why I was pushing that for MC and PC. It was probably right for GH, too, but I didn't have my spreadsheet up-to-date to prove it.
Anyway, since a 2-whip is also desirable, then switching off the granary at 44
and onto something else (e.g. lighthouse) seems good. However, Ron's three options all omit the fact that we will build the lighthouse the turn after the granary from the overflow. Every turn of delay whipping the granary costs 2
from the lighthouse, and that has significant long-term effects. So I think we should do option 4...
4) In two turns we'll be at 44 hammers on the granary and size 4, and we should 2-whip then to get our lighthouse ASAP.
Yes, we already have the lighthouse, so we just whip as we get near to half full. For an interim build, I suggest workboat, since we'll need at least three of these in the next little while.
True. Another trireme or two will be useful for exploring and warring, and so will another galley or two. After that, we'll probably want some fast cats, and courthouses before the Caste switch. Also, SM should get some turns on the fish so it is also in with a chance of whipping a courthouse after its granary.
The city we do have a trade route with is Bjorgvin, next to Utrecht. We have a sailing route to it. Perhaps Ragnar has no sailing route or road route from it to his capital yet, and we are also a tile short of a sailing route to his coastal cities on the eastern side of his island.
We also want to cancel some fish deals to get for them.
I think FH should build another galley for the nascent English invasion plans, rather than its current choice of workboat (which has zero hammers committed).
I did some cleanup and additions to the map signage. New uploaded save here. I've still "got it".
Sure. On turn 159 (i.e. start of Griff's set), Vicky had none of Literature, Alphabet or MC. So we need him to look at his saved games to find out.
If we get 90
out of trading, I estimate Music would take 14 turns and Construction 7. If we get 180 out of trading, Music would take 13 turns and Construction 6.True. A later war would also allow us to organize more troops. Say, two galleys with four catapults to land on the forest north of London, while most of the ground troops walk in from the SW or NE.
Or, an opening attack landing about five catapults next to Nottingham which bomb while land troops walk in from the south towards both Nottingham and London, and an axe pillages the iron road (no horses around). Suicide one cat on Nottingham, which falls immediately. Four cats board two galleys that turn, to be dumped next to London while the land troops reorganize next turn to apply the necessary force on London. Timing might suggest using only three cats total.
I'd suggest getting Vicky's 90
for Maths. Certainly we should hang onto Currency until there's something worthwhile to get. If we beeline Music, then I'm not worried about retaining Literature, and 190 more is nearly four turns' speed-up on Music. If we use Priesthood, Literature and Maths as necessary to get the AIs 370 we can have Music in 10 turns.I'm not sure whether there is some merit in having the Academy in place before the Golden Age. Certain tiles produce more stuff, and
are doubled during Golden Age, but does anyone know the details?Also, Music actually gives us a Great Artist, which we might save for a few turns before starting the Golden Age when it suits us. For example, we might not have organized our tech position suitably to get all our revolts done during the GAge. Deferring the Golden Age a bit to grow CC a bit to run more specialists for double
during the GAge might be wise also.I'm guessing not too much. She's got four units defending already...
Sure, a later war does combine with some of this sort of thing. There was an archer wandering around on Vicky's island SW of her five turns ago. We could send a trireme to find it ahead of the swordsmen galley.
Yeah, that's quite reasonable. York+lighthouse is quite useful. The larger inland water body is actually not fresh water, which is good because it means York has a lighthouse, which means the fresh water lake tiles are its food supply. London has 60% culture, and York 40%+hill. I'd think we need to plan for the axeman for the iron, at least two cats on York for bombing, with two more en route for London, and about four offensive units to plan to take out 2-3 archers in York with minimal downtime before moving on London.
Also reasonable is a three-prong move on London. Axeman to pillage the iron and walk in, four cats land on the forest to bomb (four bombardments that turn, two bombardments next turn while the other two walk onto the hill, then the final two bombardments leaving two for the suicide runs avoiding the river-crossing penalty), while axe+four swords walk from three tiles to London's SW in time to attack after the two suicide runs. This means most of our navy is heading home to pick up the next wave. London's a sure thing and we will have enough stuff left to move on York immediately.
I worldbuildered this scenario in the test game to see how it looks. I assumed no builds from Vicky, and allowing for 5 turns for fortification and correct 60% culture defence, against archer CD1+C1, archer CD1, archer and spear C1 per current status. After bombardment, a CR1 cat with/without river crossing is 29.81%/36.88% (which suggests not bothering about the river crossing if it's inconvenient), and CR1 sword is 64.74%. So, at least one suicide cat seems indicated. After one suicide cat (which does the same damage to the rest of the stack, whether or not it dies), assuming that it does enough damage to the lead archer that the next archer moves to be the prime defender, our CR1 swords are at 84.19% and 93.72% on the next two archers. So we'd certainly want to bring five attacking units. After two suicide cats (the second CR1 cat with/without river crossing is 53.80%/73.38%), swords start at 96%, so we'll probably get away with just four attacking units. Also plausible is just three cats on the forest north of London, which all bombard for two turns while the swords move in, and on the last turn we bombard one to get down to 5%, and judge whether to bombard once and suicide once, or suicide twice.
In practice, having two suicide cats and five attacking units available will provide insurance against Vicky sneaking out an axeman in the interim. So that means 3-4 cats, two axemen and four swords is the force we'd need to bring right now for near-certain success. It doesn't seem right to accept much risk, either. The insurance units for London will be units we'll need next for York, so no big deal.
If we trade for all the
, then Music+Construction will take 20 turns. Then, the way to set this scenario up is to organize the 6+ axes and swords onto Vicky's island during the teching (heaps of time for an axe to walk to near the iron tile). Set up our galleys to chain out of BF through PC so that we can whip and galley-chain four catapults to the front line of the navy over four turns, and then escort two galleys and trireme to a tile near London in another four turns. Then DOW, and take three turns to capture London. Each extra galley we build probably shaves a turn off that, through lengthening the galley chain.Yep, jugging build queues to save maintenance is worthwhile, unless we have a pressing need for only one type of unit. So, in the short term we can probably only do this in PC with sword and axe. Later, once we've got our opening cats, we can juggle between sword, axe, cat and maybe archer.
Maxing overflow is not a desirable objective of itself. They're just hammers. Delaying a whip so that two units build back-to-back to save
on unit maintenance is a desirable objective, but the larger overflow is the mechanism to achieve the objective, not the objective itself. Delaying whipping a build that we want to use right now just to achieve maximum overflow is clearly wrong.Looking at the save now....and I have some ideas.
Coast tiles are actually decent tiles for us now that we have the Colossus. I am going to work with the idea of using some coast tiles in strategic places for specific reasons.
PC,
If we switch off the PMine and work a coast this turn, we will grow to size 5 and still be able to 2 pop whip the sword the next turn. The benefit here is that after the whip, we never lose use of the IMine and we get a bit more overflow. The archer
Yeah, as I said, I agonized over this last turn. It was not possible for us to organize two swords onto a galley on T171 without compromising tile usage of PC. PC had to be whipped on T169 or T170 to achieve that, and I judged it best to whip T170. So, if we want to send two swords ASAP to CGT, then we'll need to give up one turn on the Imine. If we decide not to beeline swords to CGT, then I agree that we should proceed along the lines you suggest.
GH,
Similar to PC, if we grow to size 4 and then switch to a lighthouse for a few turns, we leave the granary at 44/90
To clarify, for those of us less experienced with the granary mechanism, the granary accumulates "virtual" food up to half the size of the current food bin (rounded down). Subsequent food are discarded. Then, upon growth that virtual food gets converted to actual food. So once the granary is full of virtual food, the food required for growth is about halved. A newly-built granary starts with zero virtual food. For example, at size 5 we need 45 food to grow. The granary has size 22, so if we have anywhere from 0-23 food when we build the granary, then it will be full by the time we grow to size 6. However, any point in time in that 0-23 range is just as good as any other. The difference is either not accumulating virtual food yet, or discarding virtual food once the granary is full - so no difference. So, if the rate of whipping is irrelevant, timing the whip of the granary so that after the whip there's
[pre]floor((30+size*3)/2)[/pre]
food in the bin gives us full use of the granary and maximum use of the tiles at the higher population before we whipped the granary.
The conflict between working good tiles and whipping a granary at the efficient time also creates windows where building a cheap lighthouse first is correct, which is why I was pushing that for MC and PC. It was probably right for GH, too, but I didn't have my spreadsheet up-to-date to prove it.
Anyway, since a 2-whip is also desirable, then switching off the granary at 44
and onto something else (e.g. lighthouse) seems good. However, Ron's three options all omit the fact that we will build the lighthouse the turn after the granary from the overflow. Every turn of delay whipping the granary costs 2 from the lighthouse, and that has significant long-term effects. So I think we should do option 4...4) In two turns we'll be at 44 hammers on the granary and size 4, and we should 2-whip then to get our lighthouse ASAP.
Yes, we already have the lighthouse, so we just whip as we get near to half full. For an interim build, I suggest workboat, since we'll need at least three of these in the next little while.
True. Another trireme or two will be useful for exploring and warring, and so will another galley or two. After that, we'll probably want some fast cats, and courthouses before the Caste switch. Also, SM should get some turns on the fish so it is also in with a chance of whipping a courthouse after its granary.
The trade route thing is indeed a bit weird. Not sure how we get the route without the, but also strange that we don't have
The city we do have a trade route with is Bjorgvin, next to Utrecht. We have a sailing route to it. Perhaps Ragnar has no sailing route or road route from it to his capital yet, and we are also a tile short of a sailing route to his coastal cities on the eastern side of his island.
We also want to cancel some fish deals to get
for them.I think FH should build another galley for the nascent English invasion plans, rather than its current choice of workboat (which has zero hammers committed).
mabraham
Deity
All the above was by way of food for team thought from me thinking out loud.
I will work on a PPP that does a naval and military build-up from the east, Duckweeds a settler in CC, and infrastructure in the east. If we do decide to go for the war on Vicky after Music+Construction, then there is really not time for a CGT effort, but we should try to get a sword sharpened on an archer on Vicky's island if we see one. It'll be useful whatever we do.
I will work on a PPP that does a naval and military build-up from the east, Duckweeds a settler in CC, and infrastructure in the east. If we do decide to go for the war on Vicky after Music+Construction, then there is really not time for a CGT effort, but we should try to get a sword sharpened on an archer on Vicky's island if we see one. It'll be useful whatever we do.
bcool
Deity
Any tile that produces 1 or more hammers produces 1 more, and any tile that produces 1 or more commerce produces 1 more. And as you said the
are doubled.Vicki is in war prep mode. I don't know for sure what this actually makes the AI do, but aren't they building military units for x turns and then examining if they have built up enough military for an attack? So I'm assuming Vicki is building military units with most of her cities.
Our assault would also have to take into consideration that Vicki would likely whip out a few defenders. (A whipped axe would put a big wrench in any of the proposed plans). She would at least whip out an archer in any threatened city if we don't take it down almost immediately.
bcool
Deity
If we take ~27 turns to organize the assault, I would expect we would have to deal with the other iron she has East of York.
bcool
Deity
Here's some of my thinking out loud...
We really need to simulate these attacks with a better test game. I don't think we will be able to model war prep mode, but I'm thinking we build a test game with Vicky's lands and cities as they are now and give her the techs she has and hopefully give her a few turns to switch into slavery and start a few builds of her choice.
Then we set her up as she is T170, then advance the game to turn we expect to launch an attack. Then world build in the units and actually try out the various battle plans to completion. o I'm guessing we are underestimating how quickly she could build and whip units out in defense.
Especially if we wait 20+ turns she will likely have construction as well. Since that probably will become trade bait soon.
We really need to simulate these attacks with a better test game. I don't think we will be able to model war prep mode, but I'm thinking we build a test game with Vicky's lands and cities as they are now and give her the techs she has and hopefully give her a few turns to switch into slavery and start a few builds of her choice.
Then we set her up as she is T170, then advance the game to turn we expect to launch an attack. Then world build in the units and actually try out the various battle plans to completion. o I'm guessing we are underestimating how quickly she could build and whip units out in defense.
Especially if we wait 20+ turns she will likely have construction as well. Since that probably will become trade bait soon.
Ronnie1
Deity
If we are planing on a strike on Vicky, do we still want to settle the CGT site early? I think if we are going in the Vicky direction, we should concentrate on building a more substantial force. We don't want to come up a few units short, or have no healthy defenders.
I agree with bc, since she is in war prep mode, she will be building more units for sure. For this reason, I would NOT trade her Math, no reason to speed her towards Construction.
I agree with bc, since she is in war prep mode, she will be building more units for sure. For this reason, I would NOT trade her Math, no reason to speed her towards Construction.
This is actually why I was thinking along the lines I was. I think we are at the point now with Colossus in place that we want to grow our pops. Especially if we are anticipating a golden age, coastal tiles are equivalent to working villages. Population is 1 of the key factors in making a GA worth while. All GA benefits are tied to pop, so more = better!
This is an option for sure, I played around with some ideas, but eventually decided that to wait to grow back to size 3 the turn after the whip was the idea I liked best. I may be off in my thinking here, I didn't have time to test all of the options.
adrianj
Deity
I haven't looked at the save lately, so I don't have any specific comments. What I *do* like is an attack on Vicky! I'm pretty keen to get the bloodshed started 
Something I can help with:
production is +100%. Not necessairly doubled for cities with NE or Pacifism.
Any tile that produces at least 1
gets an additional 1 (ie, coast will now produce 5. Again, it's not doubled. Edited: Fixed typo "not" = "now"
Same story for. No bonus to food, hence it's generally smart to grow cities before the golden age, and sometimes smart to run a food deficit during the golden age if it means working more tiles/specialists.
As for the effect on the Academy: If the city is running mostly specialist scientists (for the boost) then the golden age gets little difference from the Academy. If we're working coastal or other tiles then they do get multiplied provided our slider is converting the to 
.
This all assumes we even have an Academy. We might also consider that we end up with a GMerchant (thanks to Colossus) or GEngineer (there was an Engineer assigned?) out of CC.
Something I can help with:
production is +100%. Not necessairly doubled for cities with NE or Pacifism.Any tile that produces at least 1
gets an additional 1 (ie, coast will now produce 5. Again, it's not doubled. Edited: Fixed typo "not" = "now"Same story for
. No bonus to food, hence it's generally smart to grow cities before the golden age, and sometimes smart to run a food deficit during the golden age if it means working more tiles/specialists.As for the effect on the Academy: If the city is running mostly specialist scientists (for the
boost) then the golden age gets little difference from the Academy. If we're working coastal or other tiles then they do get multiplied provided our slider is converting the to .This all assumes we even have an Academy. We might also consider that we end up with a GMerchant (thanks to Colossus) or GEngineer (there was an Engineer assigned?) out of CC.
Ronnie1
Deity
Our coast will get 4 because of Colossus!
because of Colossus!mabraham
Deity
I think we have to choose one, do it, and then do the other. If we're not going to be hitting Vicky for 25-30 turns even without doing much about CGT, we can't afford to wait another 15 turns... she can research Feudalism as it is...
Why do we care about her building catapults? Each catapult she builds is an axeman she didn't build...
This is actually why I was thinking along the lines I was. I think we are at the point now with Colossus in place that we want to grow our pops. Especially if we are anticipating a golden age, coastal tiles are equivalent to working villages. Population is 1 of the key factors in making a GA worth while. All GA benefits are tied to pop, so more = better!
Anybody growing their population will be quarantined from whipping, so that means we need a demarcation of which cities are building an army and which are not. We will have to whip courthouses at some point, however.
I'll spreadsheet-test when I get some time.
I haven't looked at the save lately, so I don't have any specific comments. What I *do* like is an attack on Vicky! I'm pretty keen to get the bloodshed started
Something I can help with:
Any tile that produces at least 1
Same story for
As for the effect on the Academy: If the city is running mostly specialist scientists (for the
OK, so because the
doesn't matter, and the slider position doesn't matter, the academy is immaterial for a Golden Age.No engineer worked - it was assigned by the game after a growth. We have 10-12 turns until GLib, so by the time we get that GPerson it'll be about 60% scientist.
Ronnie1
Deity
Not necessarily...maybe just whipping at higher pops! If we whip every 15 turns, but grow every 6-8 we gain ground. Likewise if we whip sooner, but grow faster, we are still gaining pop in the long run.
mabraham
Deity
OK, people, we need an idea of our strategic direction for the next little while. Hitting Vicky is reasonable, but it's gotta be done hard and fast before she uses much of her iron, or gets Feudalism. I do not think we have time to mess around with CGT before that, because it occupies a trireme and galley and that costs us at least a turn in kicking off the main attack because the galley chain is shorter.
There's no point me producing a PPP before we agree on strategic direction.
Here are some options I suggest. We need people to speak up about what they think is right, with variations as necessary. Please do suggest a new option if you think something else is best.
In any of the above, I think we save the Great Artist until we can anticipate having CoL and/or religion+Philo and our populations have grown a bit, to get highest value from the Golden Age.
I like either option 1) or 4), but prefer 1) over 4).
There's no point me producing a PPP before we agree on strategic direction.
Here are some options I suggest. We need people to speak up about what they think is right, with variations as necessary. Please do suggest a new option if you think something else is best.
- Ignore CGT and gear up for maximum war on Vicky, taking London fast. Tech Music then Construction. Save the Great Artist for once we've grown the population a bit. Spy with Magellan. Spend the time while teching up to Construction putting a maximally-large force of axes and swords onto Vicky's land mass that will walk overland to London from the SW. Lurk an axe near any connected iron to disconnect it ASAP at kickoff time. Organize PC and BF to whip out at least four catapults ASAP after Construction, and our galleys and triremes to galley-chain those catapults for a landing probably north of London. Farm some XP out of Vicky's barbs while waiting.
- As for 1), but settle near Vicky's Ivory and hit York first
- As for 1), but take and settle CGT first
- Ignore Vicky for the moment, take and settle the CGT site ASAP, expanding peacefully but with a view to killing someone with maces and trebs soon. Trade away our metals to get some warrior MPs.
In any of the above, I think we save the Great Artist until we can anticipate having CoL and/or religion+Philo and our populations have grown a bit, to get highest value from the Golden Age.
I like either option 1) or 4), but prefer 1) over 4).
bcool
Deity
I prefer 4) at the moment. I think we are overestimating how effective we will be by the time we are in a position to hit Vicky.
I'm sorry I didn't have time to make the test game I was proposing to demonstrate that hitting Vicky hard and fast would be more difficult than we are imagining. The map I made for the proposed new test game could be modified for this test relatively easily. I might have time in ~20 hours to play around with that if other people think it would be useful.
I'm sorry I didn't have time to make the test game I was proposing to demonstrate that hitting Vicky hard and fast would be more difficult than we are imagining. The map I made for the proposed new test game could be modified for this test relatively easily. I might have time in ~20 hours to play around with that if other people think it would be useful.
bcool
Deity
I hope to learn more from my test games, but if we did go to war I would want to skip music and just go for construction.
Re: Music for the great artist just to run a GA
Yes it is nice but raw bonus hammers and commerce from the GA rarely pays for the research of music itself even if you factor in the saved turns from switching during the GA. If you factor in the trades that you could make with Music then yes it is a nice play.
However if we are going to war I think time is of the essence, so I would go straight for construction assuming that we could conceivable whip out enough non-catapults by the time we get construction.
Obviously simulating the various outcomes is something to simulate if possible.
This belief that we need construction for a productive war and would probably lose the music race is one reason that I favor option 4. I also think we could conceivably trade for construction with music, but this isn't something we could depend on for war plans. Delaying the war for maceman/catapults (or trebs) would likely allow us to trade for construction at our leisure.
Re: Music for the great artist just to run a GA
Yes it is nice but raw bonus hammers and commerce from the GA rarely pays for the research of music itself even if you factor in the saved turns from switching during the GA. If you factor in the trades that you could make with Music then yes it is a nice play.
However if we are going to war I think time is of the essence, so I would go straight for construction assuming that we could conceivable whip out enough non-catapults by the time we get construction.
Obviously simulating the various outcomes is something to simulate if possible.
This belief that we need construction for a productive war and would probably lose the music race is one reason that I favor option 4. I also think we could conceivably trade for construction with music, but this isn't something we could depend on for war plans. Delaying the war for maceman/catapults (or trebs) would likely allow us to trade for construction at our leisure.
adrianj
Deity
My option would be for 1)
I am generally more in favour of an early war. I understand the protests that it could fall flat and ultimately prove to be a longer course of action than a Cannon/Galleon approach, but that's a risk. There is also a chance things go swimmingly and Cannons/Galleons are complete overkill: an easy, non-risky victory when perhaps other teams took the more direct route.
I'm also not convinced of the benefit of Music before Construction. The sooner we hit Vicky, the less time she has to defend herself, and also less time for her to spawn new cities.
I am generally more in favour of an early war. I understand the protests that it could fall flat and ultimately prove to be a longer course of action than a Cannon/Galleon approach, but that's a risk. There is also a chance things go swimmingly and Cannons/Galleons are complete overkill: an easy, non-risky victory when perhaps other teams took the more direct route.
I'm also not convinced of the benefit of Music before Construction. The sooner we hit Vicky, the less time she has to defend herself, and also less time for her to spawn new cities.
Ronnie1
Deity
I would favor option 1 right now.
I would also favor skipping Music in favor of early Construction.
If we get lucky and no one is close to Music after we get Construction, then it is still an option.
I would also favor skipping Music in favor of early Construction.
If we get lucky and no one is close to Music after we get Construction, then it is still an option.
mabraham
Deity
bc is quite right about the payoff from the Golden Age. Music is 1404. To get a baseline for the value of the Golden Age, right now we're working 10 non-city tiles that return 2+, 17 tiles that return 2+ and getting 6. Having just tested, we also get +1 +1 in each of our nine city tiles. So our minimum return from 10 turns of a Golden Age is 19026060. If we magically doubled our population, then we'd still be behind the game until we got decent trading value for Music or gained a turn or two from free civics changes.
. To get a baseline for the value of the Golden Age, right now we're working 10 non-city tiles that return 2+, 17 tiles that return 2+ and getting 6. Having just tested, we also get +1 +1 in each of our nine city tiles. So our minimum return from 10 turns of a Golden Age is 19026060. If we magically doubled our population, then we'd still be behind the game until we got decent trading value for Music or gained a turn or two from free civics changes.mabraham
Deity
OK so if we traded for all the that is out there, except Vicky (because for some reason nobody's explained some people don't want her to have Maths...) we can get Construction in 6 turns. About 8 turns after that we can have four cats and be ready to DOW. We'd probably not have to worry about the second iron in that time frame - she needs to choose to do it, spend 1 turn moving onto a hill, 3+3 turns on roads, and probably 6 turns on the mine. We'd have to take the axe from FH and use the current pile of overflow to get another sword. Hopefully that axe can get sent to disconnect the iron mine. We'd have to take the sword and archer from PC, and get out about another four swords from PC and BF leaving enough population to get the four cats out after that.
Just taking London and not having an immediate follow-up plan is acceptable, IMO. London will have a pile of decent tiles to work, no culture pressure from anywhere, and will be perfectly defensible if we keep a raiding force on the other iron.
I'll set up my spreadsheets and see if I can achieve the necessary production.
that is out there, except Vicky (because for some reason nobody's explained some people don't want her to have Maths...) we can get Construction in 6 turns. About 8 turns after that we can have four cats and be ready to DOW. We'd probably not have to worry about the second iron in that time frame - she needs to choose to do it, spend 1 turn moving onto a hill, 3+3 turns on roads, and probably 6 turns on the mine. We'd have to take the axe from FH and use the current pile of overflow to get another sword. Hopefully that axe can get sent to disconnect the iron mine. We'd have to take the sword and archer from PC, and get out about another four swords from PC and BF leaving enough population to get the four cats out after that.Just taking London and not having an immediate follow-up plan is acceptable, IMO. London will have a pile of decent tiles to work, no culture pressure from anywhere, and will be perfectly defensible if we keep a raiding force on the other iron.
I'll set up my spreadsheets and see if I can achieve the necessary production.
bcool
Deity
I think that is quite a low estimate. By the time we trigger the Golden Age we would have the Great Library I would think. That adds 8
a turn. or 80 more than you estimated. Those at least equate to 3 per 1 . Plus I would expect we could run at least 2 scientists in the capital for 6 more per turn. That's another 60 That is a total of an additional 140 over the course of the Golden age. Also music is listed at 1404, but you must factor in the 20% prereq discount right? So it is really 1170 invested science for us. With the minimum of 200
190 and 260 you estimated Music's GA pays almost pays for itself. (~600 from + ~450 from commerce and hammers) So 1170 cost compared to 1050 gain.Then factor in what we would save by avoiding the 2? turns of anarchy when we switch to Caste system and I think we are a bit ahead by researching music and using the GA for a golden age.
adrianj
Deity
This all looks really great to me. I for one see no problem trading Maths to Vicky if we get a good pile of gold out of itOK so if we traded for all the
Just taking London and not having an immediate follow-up plan is acceptable, IMO. London will have a pile of decent tiles to work, no culture pressure from anywhere, and will be perfectly defensible if we keep a raiding force on the other iron.
I'll set up my spreadsheets and see if I can achieve the necessary production.
