SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

I updated my population counts.

[pre]
Civ T153 T163 T173
Us 103 120 147
GWN 80 96 103
WWN 77 82 85
GWW 77 82 96
WWW 54 58 76
GWS 100 120 131
WWS 88 100 125
GWE 93 100 89
WWE 70 86 90
Total 742 844 942
[/pre]

So if we'd had a UN voting block with us from North and West on those turns, we'd have had 52.7% and 51.9% respectively. If we'd conquered all of Asoka (GWE), we'd have had 65.2% and 63.7%.

Currently our voting block of West-North-us has 506/942 votes. Asoka gets us to 595, which is 63.1%. So we are still on track, but we will lose a little of Asoka's population as he whips and we deal with border pops and unhappiness. We will need to make sure we leverage our growth opportunities fully, and consider taking a city or two from Ragnar if the opportunity presents itself.

There's some fudge in those numbers - we can't see four Ragnar cities, one Mansa city (probably on coast SE of capital) and one Shaka city (newly settled on the hub). South won't trade us maps either.

 

[mabraham]

I'm still keen on these ideas:

• Stack in Madurai should move on Patali immediately before it builds a castle, assembling on the forest fort this turn. I would plan to take the super medic along, because the two crossbows, two maces, pike and phant should prevent it from seeing defensive combat until muskets appear. I don't see that we need to leave a city defender in Madurai because we rate to be able to deliver one in good time if a threat appears, but the super medic can do the job for one turn. City revolts in Madurai are not a threat because Asoka is not putting any new culture in Madurai. We won't be able to draft in Madurai until we get 10% culture.
• Chariot medic should come west to allow for healing knights without requiring the knight mini-medic to do that.
• The two airships about to finish will give us 7, which is more than enough. We will also be able to base these in the forts near Madurai when they are in our culture. The fort SE of Madurai is the only base we currently have that can hit Bombay - but we would have to defend the airships from horse archer raids - the woodsman II mace will be great on its own.
• Airships in Madurai can hit the two healthy units in Ragnar's stack and the knight following up NW of Cimmerian. Airships in Isengard can move to Madurai and Ayodhya.
• Knights can then hit Ragnar's stack. The three knights 1NW of Ayodhya can move along the road, attack, and retreat to Ayodhya to heal. All other knights should move to the tile NE of Ragnar's stack before attacking. Don't bother moving knights away after combat (workers arriving below), unless they are heavily damaged and need lots of healing time in a city.
• Don't apply the third upgrade to the C2 knight - we probably want that for Amphib.
• Most of these knights will be unsuitable for the wizard campaign, and will want to reassemble in Madurai to be in range if Ragnar sends his second stack, or to move on Asoka's cities around the time when Patali falls.
• Two workers from rebuilding the horse should move themselves under that knight stack to build a road under it next turn.
• Indraprastha should work camp, cottage and artist while building culture to pop its borders this turn. It should max growth, keeping the sheep for itself, because it has a granary.
• Ayodyha should work Pworkshop for 5 turns for a workboat, then culture for 2 turns (allows for earliest plant of workboat) then consider granary or possibly workboats for Mathura.
• Since the West are now friendly, we can trade them Nat for DR, and then next turn give that to North and hope someone starts Gunpowder for us to steal.
• Asoka cottages (especially on plains) should be pillaged for the gold so long as there's no significant risk of losing units.
• Spies move to fortify Vara and Bombay for revolts.
• We're about to get city vision on Ragnar, so I suggest our spy moves into Asoka lands for revolts.
• If Wizard City builds culture (and receives Taoism), we may capture two forests from Mansa to chop into galleons... need to test this theory. If we got 4.5% on those forest tiles on each of the last two turns, then we can roughly equate 4 culture to 4.5% influence. If we need somewhat more than 41% more influence, then at 6 culture we might capture those forests in 6 turns, which is soon enough to chop them into galleons. So I suggest we send two more workers and a missionary ASAP. They can build roads on those forests in preparation.

With the updated purchase schedule, we may not have time for chops at all. I suggest we look at the timing for moving now to chop the BFC forest to the west of Wizard city, since it will be in culture in a turn or two.

• Assemble navy, newly built trebs from the north and newly drafted maces to land on forest east of Hyderabad and take it? Then galleon leap-frog those units to wherever makes sense at the time.
• Need to sort out which cities will draft - limit 3 cities per turn. Second drafts should only happen in cities that can afford the happiness hit. Barracks will provide 2 Stone City should not draft because that will slow down Taj Mahal.
• If we need to use fast boats (vassalage plus taoism spread in Wizard City) to get a window for cuirassiers to be upgraded, not all the boats need to be fast. 6 knights can leave on 2 normal galleons, and the last galleon can leave 2(?) turns later with the cuirassiers.
• There's two missionaries in Gandhi's lands. We should spread in Delhi and move the eastern one towards Bangalore to maximise his Tao population and keep him from switching.
• Washington and Gems should switch to missionaries this turn after the spreads, planning to gift two to Monty (which should get him to a level where he doesn't hanker to switch to Hinduism) and subsequent ones to Genghis in Bactrian. Then move one overland to Genghis while we judge whether to use it for him or for Wizard city for fast galleons/culture for chops.

I think Monty and Gandhi will keep switching back regardless of what we do. Genghis is the best candidate for a permanent switch.

 

[mabraham]

Current war maps for planning purposes

 

[bcool]

• Stack in Madurai should move on Patali immediately before it builds a castle, assembling on the forest fort this turn. I would plan to take the super medic along, because the two crossbows, two maces, pike and phant should prevent it from seeing defensive combat until muskets appear. I don't see that we need to leave a city defender in Madurai because we rate to be able to deliver one in good time if a threat appears, but the super medic can do the job for one turn. City revolts in Madurai are not a threat because Asoka is not putting any new culture in Madurai. We won't be able to draft in Madurai until we get 10% culture.

• 
  I took these ideas into account when I made my rough war plan.
  

  [*]Chariot medic should come west to allow for healing knights without requiring the knight mini-medic to do that.
  
  [*]The two airships about to finish will give us 7, which is more than enough. We will also be able to base these in the forts near Madurai when they are in our culture. The fort SE of Madurai is the only base we currently have that can hit Bombay - but we would have to defend the airships from horse archer raids - the woodsman II mace will be great on its own.
  [*]Airships in Madurai can hit the two healthy units in Ragnar's stack and the knight following up NW of Cimmerian. Airships in Isengard can move to Madurai and Ayodhya.

  sure to above.
  

  [*]Knights can then hit Ragnar's stack. The three knights 1NW of Ayodhya can move along the road, attack, and retreat to Ayodhya to heal. All other knights should move to the tile NE of Ragnar's stack before attacking. Don't bother moving knights away after combat (workers arriving below), unless they are heavily damaged and need lots of healing time in a city.

  I like the idea of letting them come 1 tile closer. I want another GG for the boats in wizard killing city. We will need the double xp from these fights if that is going to happen in time.
  

  [*]Don't apply the third upgrade to the C2 knight - we probably want that for Amphib.

  we are going to probably have plenty of knights for the job, so upgrade if you want to in my opinion.
  

  [*]Most of these knights will be unsuitable for the wizard campaign, and will want to reassemble in Madurai to be in range if Ragnar sends his second stack, or to move on Asoka's cities around the time when Patali falls.

  [*]Two workers from rebuilding the horse should move themselves under that knight stack to build a road under it next turn.

  if we wait 1 turn to kill them in our culture this won't be necessary
  

  [*]Indraprastha should work camp, cottage and artist while building culture to pop its borders this turn. It should max growth, keeping the sheep for itself, because it has a granary.
  [*]Ayodyha should work Pworkshop for 5 turns for a workboat, then culture for 2 turns (allows for earliest plant of workboat) then consider granary or possibly workboats for Mathura.

  sure
  

  [*]Since the West are now friendly, we can trade them Nat for DR, and then next turn give that to North and hope someone starts Gunpowder for us to steal.

  I would rather trade electricity for Divine Right so there are fewer players in the race for the Taj Mahal.
  

  [*]Asoka cottages (especially on plains) should be pillaged for the gold so long as there's no significant risk of losing units.
  [*]Spies move to fortify Vara and Bombay for revolts.
  [*]We're about to get city vision on Ragnar, so I suggest our spy moves into Asoka lands for revolts.

  sure.
  

  [*]If Wizard City builds culture (and receives Taoism), we may capture two forests from Mansa to chop into galleons... need to test this theory. If we got 4.5% on those forest tiles on each of the last two turns, then we can roughly equate 4 culture to 4.5% influence. If we need somewhat more than 41% more influence, then at 6 culture we might capture those forests in 6 turns, which is soon enough to chop them into galleons. So I suggest we send two more workers and a missionary ASAP. They can build roads on those forests in preparation.

  This likely won't be in time for the accelerated boat building plan. I think just put hammers into galleon.
  

  [*]Assemble navy, newly built trebs from the north and newly drafted maces to land on forest east of Hyderabad and take it? Then galleon leap-frog those units to wherever makes sense at the time.
  [*]Need to sort out which cities will draft - limit 3 cities per turn. Second drafts should only happen in cities that can afford the happiness hit. Barracks will provide 2 Stone City should not draft because that will slow down Taj Mahal.

  no drafts in washington either.
  
  

  [*]If we need to use fast boats (vassalage plus taoism spread in Wizard City) to get a window for cuirassiers to be upgraded, not all the boats need to be fast. 6 knights can leave on 2 normal galleons, and the last galleon can leave 2(?) turns later with the cuirassiers.

  [*]There's two missionaries in Gandhi's lands. We should spread in Delhi and move the eastern one towards Bangalore to maximise his Tao population and keep him from switching.

  I think we spread toaism to one of the south's witches cities instead. Getting the south involved in the war late poses no risk to our voting (since we will keep the north and west in taoism and ply them with tech gifts and run their favorite civics in 2 cases)
  I think we spread toaism to Genghis instead as well. Gandhi is spreading taoism to his own cities. And worst case we can use tech to flip him back to taoism. Obviously still need a spy back up if he switches at the wrong moment.
  
  

  [*]Washington and Gems should switch to missionaries this turn after the spreads, planning to gift two to Monty (which should get him to a level where he doesn't hanker to switch to Hinduism) and subsequent ones to Genghis in Bactrian. Then move one overland to Genghis while we judge whether to use it for him or for Wizard city for fast galleons/culture for chops.

I'm okay with a few more missionaries but maybe not immediately as mabraham suggests (since it won't be possible if you use the existing missionaries as I suggest)

 

[shulec]

I think we spread toaism to one of the south's witches cities instead. Getting the south involved in the war late poses no risk to our voting (since we will keep the north and west in taoism and ply them with tech gifts and run their favorite civics in 2 cases)

Another problem with what you are recommending above is that there will be one (or two) more AI that can defy the Holy War Vote.

 

[bcool]

Another problem with what you are recommending above is that there will be two more AI that can defy the Holy War Vote.

why would they defy a vote to declare war on their worst enemy? Seems highly unlikely to me. Plus the east witches are going to be in even worse shape in 6 turns when the vote comes up. So I highly doubt their power is going to make any of the AI hesitate to vote yes.

I admit that dragging the south into the war doesn't have much of an upside even if the downside is negligible.

I highly doubt the south will be able to organize a stack and capture any cities in 10 turns of war with the east. They might kill a few knights for us that is all. Even if they do capture a city, it isn't a big deal since the city will lose pop on capture and be in revolt so the pop voting against us will go down.

 

[shulec]

why would they defy a vote to declare war on their worst enemy? Seems highly unlikely to me. Plus the east witches are going to be in even worse shape in 6 turns when the vote comes up. So I highly doubt their power is going to make any of the AI hesitate to vote yes.

I wasn't aware that the east witches were the worst enemy of the southes, so I agree it is unlikely they would defy.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The drafting and turning off of representation will cause -6 happy to our 5 largest cities starting T178. More if we exempt Washington and Stone City from drafting and draft a 2nd time from the others.

I think North was willing to trade Wine which is about the one happy resource we don't have. Also, I think it is safe to get our spices back from Ghandi. That should be +2 happy. I'm not sure if we can get our hands on any whale.


When we switch to Nationalism spy specialists get a little better, and Washington without the production bonus might switch off the pHill in favor of growth. Our capital has the largest happy reserve, and if we can squeeze a pop growth out of it for a draft that would be great.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I can't really see us getting the 3rd great general in time to walk from Washington to Dead Wizard city unless we gamble and let Ragnar's stack move one more time hopefully to a spot inside our borders. We would gain maybe 30 great general points instead of 15.

It would have to be in Isengarde ready to walk with our horse stack around T179 wouldn't it? Then we have to go over the GG xp mark T176 so it spawns in Washington T177.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hmm, to get Dead Wizard City producing galleons with 1 promo already, we need to spread Taoism there quickly. Maybe use one of those 2 missionaries we have inside Ghandi's borders?

Also, that horse archer we have insided Dead Wizard City can also be promoted to amphibious and then turned into a knight in a pinch.



I've always had promotion issues when upgrading units. Sometimes I think the xp for promotions was reset after I upgraded a unit, and always forget whether to upgrade them before or after using up the promotions. If we decide we want to upgrade some knights to curaissers, then hopefully this isn't an issue.

 

[Kaitzilla]

If we wait one more turn to attack Ragnar's stack, Indrapandra is technically vulnerable to that injured horse archer with just a lone archer defending.

Ragnar also has a 3 movement galley around Roskilde, which could in theory take Ayodhya from the sea with a berserker.


About that spy shadowing Ragnar's stacks of doom. I'm not sure if we have the EP for it, but what if in 6 turns when East Witches get gunpowder, a spy in Mathura flips Asoka into Caste System from Slavery? That would put a damper on his resistance.


I really like the idea of expanding Indrapasthra's borders in 1 turn

 

[bcool]

The drafting and turning off of representation will cause -6 happy to our 5 largest cities starting T178. More if we exempt Washington and Stone City from drafting and draft a 2nd time from the others.

I think North was willing to trade Wine which is about the one happy resource we don't have. Also, I think it is safe to get our spices back from Ghandi. That should be +2 happy. I'm not sure if we can get our hands on any whale.


When we switch to Nationalism spy specialists get a little better, and Washington without the production bonus might switch off the pHill in favor of growth. Our capital has the largest happy reserve, and if we can squeeze a pop growth out of it for a draft that would be great.

Right now I think we should draft from the following cities

Gems, CB, Silver, Marble, Fur, Sheep, Isengard, Phants (with the option to draft 3 times in the smaller cities near the front CB, Sheep, Fur perhaps)

I don't think we need to draft from GPFarm, washington, or stone. So the happiness issues will be minimized. I would only cancel spices if we need it to convert more than 1 unhappy person to happy.

I would trade for the wine.

 

[mabraham]

I can't really see us getting the 3rd great general in time to walk from Washington to Dead Wizard city unless we gamble and let Ragnar's stack move one more time hopefully to a spot inside our borders. We would gain maybe 30 great general points instead of 15.

I don't see this as much of a gamble at all. Even if the GG is too late to send with the wizard expedition, a 9+20XP knight can get Combat 1, Combat 2, Flanking 1, Flanking 2, Tactics (30% withdrawal) and save up the last promo to access Pinch (anti gunpowder) for healing. A single musket is likely to appear in a city when we besiege it. This gives us a unit that can do damage to it and likely survive. Not having to face 7.2str muskets improves the survivability of our siege units.

If we pull all our forces to 1NW of Ayodhya (allowing the injured knight to stay where it is to heal) and Ragnar advances NE or E, then we can kill him there and judge whether to pull back to Indra or Ayodhya to heal with the medic chariot. So injured units will tend to be at least one turn faster to go hit Asoka later, which roughly pays for the delay of one turn killing Ragnar's stack. If he advances N instead, then we use the roads to walk around to Indra and hit him from there. Knight 1NE of Isengard moves into Indra to cover it from the horse archer in Ragnar's stack. Treb goes back to get on the galleon to be out of the danger zone.

It's possible we get no war weariness if we attack within our culture after Indra pops its borders, but this depends on the culture level of the plot in question. Maybe there's too much Asoka culture soaked in.

It would have to be in Isengarde ready to walk with our horse stack around T179 wouldn't it? Then we have to go over the GG xp mark T176 so it spawns in Washington T177.

GG spawn locations are erratic. The first spawned in Isengard.

 

[mabraham]

Also, that horse archer we have insided Dead Wizard City can also be promoted to amphibious and then turned into a knight in a pinch.

I've always had promotion issues when upgrading units. Sometimes I think the xp for promotions was reset after I upgraded a unit, and always forget whether to upgrade them before or after using up the promotions. If we decide we want to upgrade some knights to curaissers, then hopefully this isn't an issue.

Post-upgrade XP is capped at 10, but applied promotions are retained over the upgrade. Even if the XP is available, promotions cannot be applied after the upgrade on that turn, because the unit has used its movement.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I don't see this as much of a gamble at all. Even if the GG is too late to send with the wizard expedition, a 9+20XP knight can get Combat 1, Combat 2, Flanking 1, Flanking 2, Tactics (30% withdrawal) and save up the last promo to access Pinch (anti gunpowder) for healing. A single musket is likely to appear in a city when we besiege it. This gives us a unit that can do damage to it and likely survive. Not having to face 7.2str muskets improves the survivability of our siege units.

If we pull all our forces to 1NW of Ayodhya (allowing the injured knight to stay where it is to heal) and Ragnar advances NE or E, then we can kill him there and judge whether to pull back to Indra or Ayodhya to heal with the medic chariot. So injured units will tend to be at least one turn faster to go hit Asoka later, which roughly pays for the delay of one turn killing Ragnar's stack. If he advances N instead, then we use the roads to walk around to Indra and hit him from there. Knight 1NE of Isengard moves into Indra to cover it from the horse archer in Ragnar's stack. Treb goes back to get on the galleon to be out of the danger zone.

It's possible we get no war weariness if we attack within our culture after Indra pops its borders, but this depends on the culture level of the plot in question. Maybe there's too much Asoka culture soaked in.



GG spawn locations are erratic. The first spawned in Isengard.

Cool, didn't know that about Great Generals.

 

[bcool]

I can't really see us getting the 3rd great general in time to walk from Washington to Dead Wizard city unless we gamble and let Ragnar's stack move one more time hopefully to a spot inside our borders. We would gain maybe 30 great general points instead of 15.

It would have to be in Isengarde ready to walk with our horse stack around T179 wouldn't it? Then we have to go over the GG xp mark T176 so it spawns in Washington T177.

Yeah I'm suggesting we risk letting his stack into our culture.
The GG has to make it to Dead Wizard City (New York) by T181 or T182 with movement left since with the promotions the galleons should be able to move 5
So T182 move 5, T183 move 5, T184 move 5, T185 move 5, T186 move 1 pick up units, T187 move and units attack. T188 backup turn. T189 win

 

[mabraham]

If we wait one more turn to attack Ragnar's stack, Indrapandra is technically vulnerable to that injured horse archer with just a lone archer defending.

Knight NE of Isengard can cover Indra.

Ragnar also has a 3 movement galley around Roskilde, which could in theory take Ayodhya from the sea with a berserker.

Good point, something to watch for with Ragnar's funky lighthouse. City vision will be available on Ragnar in a turn or two.

About that spy shadowing Ragnar's stacks of doom. I'm not sure if we have the EP for it, but what if in 6 turns when East Witches get gunpowder, a spy in Mathura flips Asoka into Caste System from Slavery? That would put a damper on his resistance.

Sounds good!

 

[bcool]

Hmm, to get Dead Wizard City producing galleons with 1 promo already, we need to spread Taoism there quickly. Maybe use one of those 2 missionaries we have inside Ghandi's borders?

Also, that horse archer we have insided Dead Wizard City can also be promoted to amphibious and then turned into a knight in a pinch.



I've always had promotion issues when upgrading units. Sometimes I think the xp for promotions was reset after I upgraded a unit, and always forget whether to upgrade them before or after using up the promotions. If we decide we want to upgrade some knights to curaissers, then hopefully this isn't an issue.

we don't need 1 promo galleons, the GG can spread 4 xp to 5 units so the galleons would get flanking and navigation without taoism boosting them.

when you promote a unit its xp is truncated to 10. So if you have unused xp above 10 it will be wasted.

 

[bcool]

If we wait one more turn to attack Ragnar's stack, Indrapandra is technically vulnerable to that injured horse archer with just a lone archer defending.

Ragnar also has a 3 movement galley around Roskilde, which could in theory take Ayodhya from the sea with a berserker.


About that spy shadowing Ragnar's stacks of doom. I'm not sure if we have the EP for it, but what if in 6 turns when East Witches get gunpowder, a spy in Mathura flips Asoka into Caste System from Slavery? That would put a damper on his resistance.


I really like the idea of expanding Indrapasthra's borders in 1 turn

We would leave a knight in Indrapandra to avoid the horse archer making a surprise attack. we should protect ayodhya too, good catch.

I'm anticipating using our espionage on Asoka/Ragnar for 2 city revolts. The castles in Bombay and V....

 

[Kaitzilla]

I like the idea of overflowing in Washington to speed up the UN. What if we took it a step further with a double overflow?

Spend 2 turns to get a knight up to 89/90, then switch to a pikeman and spend 2 turns producing him to get a 40 overflow. With 50 per turn in Washington, there would be 89 overflow from producing the knight the 5th turn, and on the sixth turn we could have 139 going into the UN. That is about 1 hammer short of building the UN in one turn, but I'm sure we can assign an engineer specialist to make it happen.

Not sure if shortening the UN to a 1 turn build by keeping military in the queue is a good idea.

Also, I have failed 3 out of 3 times when attempting such a hammer waterfall . The timing has to be just right and is for people very good at math.