SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

I thought the AI made an economic decision about new cities after they got to 4. If so, do we need to make them like us for gifts?

I am not sure what your response means. I was meaning to gift the settlers and let them settle the cities. I think your response meant you thought I was saying to settle the cities ourselves, then gift them. Am I wrong and you are worried that the AI will take the settlers, but not settle them?
 
I am not sure what your response means. I was meaning to gift the settlers and let them settle the cities. I think your response meant you thought I was saying to settle the cities ourselves, then gift them. Am I wrong and you are worried that the AI will take the settlers, but not settle them?

Oh. I see. I was assuming gifting cities, not settlers. I've never considered gifting settlers, and have no idea what AIs do with them. It should be easy to test, however. Turn on the tips and maybe pre-position settlers on the blue circles and hope the AI instant-settles.
 
Oh. I see. I was assuming gifting cities, not settlers. I've never considered gifting settlers, and have no idea what AIs do with them. It should be easy to test, however. Turn on the tips and maybe pre-position settlers on the blue circles and hope the AI instant-settles.

You can't gift the settlers without being in their territory, hence, needing OB.
 
Re: gifting cities (or settlers)

I would assume if we want to pump up an AI's population gifting them cities would be far more effective than gifting them settlers. You can gift a city to an AI as long as the city is within 9.5 tiles of one of their other cities if they are not in a financial crisis. If we really need to get them out of a financial crisis we can gift them gold for 10 turns and get them out of their financial crisis. So gift them 10 gold/turn see if they accept the gift, gift them an addition 10 if that doesn't work, etc. This would potentially be expensive, but I'm assuming we would be doing this near the end when the UN is close to being built and we don't really need to tech anything else.

The biggest problem with city gifts is that we would get diplo hits for doing it if they were the worst enemies of some other AI, however this is likely something we can avoid with intelligent espionage use.
For example we want our opponent to be hated, but we can temporarily make them not so hated by switching their religion and/or civics with espionage missions.
During that window of non-hatred we gift them the cities, etc.

With this said, I think we want to wipe out the eastern witches to get a good percentage of the population ourselves. And hopefully bring in the other AI and get some common military struggle diplo bonuses. Then I think the Southern witches are the better opponents for us. They already seem to be a decent size, and they probably will both be confu if we get lucky and just as hated as the eastern witches would be.

And we make the northern witches (and hopefully the western witches) our friends

If this is the plan, we can safely piss off the southern witches with tech gifts to the eastern witches and get OB probably. However, I'm not sure we want to piss them off before we trade for the techs they might be willing to trade to us. Assuming we can do so without incurring prohibitive worst enemies diplo penalties.
 
I'll probably have more "red" than Tachy.

Since it's a rather complicated PPP, I'll post a quick draft in a new format :D.

I've run through the test game mabraham provided, and wrote the moves/actions in a spreadsheet, and some on paper. Now, putting it all together seems impossible :blush:.

Washington
Finishes library, and starts on an aqueduct T97. At T100 the aqueduct gets whipped, and we start the HG on T101. Working sheep, cow, corn and grass mine from the start.
If I noted correctly, I got growth at turns 97 – added the PH mine, T100 – added the other PH mine, and again at T102 after the 2 - pop whip. Working on the HG till the end of the turnset

Hoover moves to 1N2E, and to the forest 1N1E, puts 2 chops and a 1T road to finish the chop for the HG at T101. He could put 1T into the mine for the CB city instead of the road. The new worker from stone city moves to 1S of Boston on T102, and chops with hoover.
We can have a settler from gems city ready for settling the marble site at T101, and that would prevent the chops to go into the HG. We could delay the settling, or settle the ivory site with him.


Stone city

Finished the WB, and started on a worker at T99. 2 pop whipped him at T101, after Aesthetics was done, so I could assign the scientists to tiles. Working Gold, rice, oasis, stone and crabs with the 2 mentioned scientists until the whip. The same after the whip. Later growth (T103/104) used to hire a new scientist.

Gems city

Fritz chopped the forest for a 1 turn settler build on T96, switched to a WB on T97, and a lighthouse on T98. Karl put an another chop at T99, so the settler was built on T99 with a whip (I think whipping was not optimal)

GP farm

Started on a galley instead of the aqueduct.
Grown to size 6 in 2 turns, and assigned two scientists.
Eiffel built the farm on the FP, and went cottaging around washington starting at T100.
Goodyear made the 1T farm "slingshot", and joined eiffel on the FP farm. Finished the grass farm at T101, and went to the PH south of GP farm city for a mine build.

Isengard

Building barracks, working fish/horse, and added cows/sheep later after the growth.
Yamasaki moves to sheep T96 and puts 1T into the pasture. Moves on the cows T97, and starts pasture T98. Fritz joins him on the cows T100 to finish it at the same turn we have Growth in isengaard. T101 they move both to sheep, and finish the pasture. Next copper in 3 turns - move + 2T mine. They can split up after this. One stays for the roads building there, and the other one goes back to the core cities.

Silver city works on the library

Stevenson puts 1T in a farm 1N of SC. T97 starts pig pasture, and T102 starts silver mine

This is a summary of the test game I run, not a real PPP. I'll have to run the test game again tomorrow, and provide you with a more detailed "real" PPP. I'm sorry if it's not what you expected, but it's just what I managed to provide today. I thought posting the city builds, and worker actions are the most delicate things which can always be improved.

I got aesthetics on T100 with 2 turns of 100% research.

Trading it away before we have marble hooked up might be risky if we wish to build the Parthenon for the Mass media bulb plans. What do you think?


EDIT: I've had a dream. Now, after a good (too short actually) sleep, I think I can change the worker actions like this:
Goodyear moves towards the forest 1S of Boston, and completes the HG chop at T101.
Hoover puts 1T into the mine, and chops the other forest (2S1W of Boston) in the same turn.
T101 is the turn we start thr HG, and have the settler ready for the gens site.
The two workers may start on the quarry T103, or whenever we calculate we need marble.
 
Since it's a rather complicated PPP, I'll post a quick draft in a new format :D.
Yes it is.
The few I did took me hours (including re-inserting in the team).

We can have a settler from gems city ready for settling the marble site at T101, and that would prevent the chops to go into the HG. We could delay the settling, or settle the ivory site with him.
Yes, we lose hammers because those two forests are second level of quality (less than 30 :hammers: with math), but I don't want another slap in the face like TGL loss. Nonetheless, a diplomatic victory may be the way to recover such loss given most techs are bulbed with Great Scientists.



Isengard

Yamasaki moves to sheep T96 and puts 1T into the pasture. Moves on the cows T97, and starts pasture T98. Fritz joins him on the cows T100 to finish it at the same turn we have Growth in isengaard. T101 they move both to sheep, and finish the pasture. Next copper in 3 turns - move + 2T mine. They can split up after this. One stays for the roads building there, and the other one goes back to the core cities.

I know sheeps are usually weaker than cow because one unit of food/hammer is converted for a :commerce: point, but why all this juggling with workers. I can't see the test behind it, but I find it so weird to avoid finishing the sheep, which is the second stronger food source. Next pop growth, you meant third. I am sure I don't have the right personal picture...but if workers turns aren't wasted for nothing, then it is right.

I read across fast due to lack of time, but what I see seems so different of what I PPPed. Anyways, civIV is a game where choices are "infinite" ...

Good luck WW! ;)
 
Work in progress

I didn't feel like typing all the city builds, worker actions etc, so I took screenshots of my reminder spreadsheet. I hope it's understandable in this format.

Here are the screenshots:
Spoiler :


Spoiler :



Technological slider:
If we put research at 100 % for 2 turns, and keep the scientists like in my test, we get Aesthetics on T100. After that, we might consider trading for/researching Polytheism, so we can build the parthenon. With all that scientists on the Mass Media beeline path, we could really benefit a lot. I changed the worker actions since my previous PPP post, so we get marble hooked up at T106.

I stole this part from Tachy :D:

Units movement:
Scout Archer will go back to tundra forest hill to heal and fogbust against barb galleys.
Amundsen should return to GPFarm because fogbusting where he is is unnecessary at culture pop and GPFarm will need soon a military unit for reducing unhappiness.
WB should be prepare to improve coast clams in culture bridge.
WB near Witch of the North should continue its itinarary for exploration.
WB at the extreme north will continue its trip to reach the small coast passage next to the future ivory/dye city.
The GSpy should follow its itinerary as Kaitzilla wanted, hoping for the expected land bridges. Diagonally and hill final movement for better sight.

Additions:
Washington settler will settle the planned tile at T98, and attempt the gift to the western witches. (which one again please?)

... will finish it later, no time now, sorry ...
 

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Work in progress

I didn't feel like typing all the city builds, worker actions etc, so I took screenshots of my reminder spreadsheet. I hope it's understandable in this format.

Here are the screenshots:
Spoiler :


Spoiler :


I'm sorry I haven't been able to comment before now.

It is fine if you play in 2 sessions, in fact I request you must stop T101? when aesthetics is done since we will have tech trading options.

I'm not sure I will have time to go into the details, but...
In Washington, you want to work tiles so you can 3 pop the aqueduct and finish the chop of the forest on the same turn. So hoover should not mine the grass hill for 1 turn, but should move road, then move to the forest and chop straight through.
Washington details
T96 finish library sheep, corn, cows, grass mine
T97 aqueduct started add river plains mine
T98 same
T99 switch river plains mine to lake
T100 3 pop the aqueduct (should have 39/100 on the aqueduct, and chop of the forest 2S2E finishes the same turn if hoover is not artificially delayed)

I'm not sure rerouting Goodyear to help with the chop south of Boston makes sense. If we have hoover chop it, he will finish T104 which might delay the settler for the marble site, but this is okay in my mind.

In fact Gems city can put both chops into the settler, but delay finishing the settler until we time its arrival with the chop of the forest south of boston on T104.

I think this is best since Goodyear has productive things to do for the GPFarm.



Stone city should only 2 pop whip the worker T100 if you are sure that we will finish aesthetics even after we 2 pop whip the worker and lose the commerce/science those 2 pop are producing for us.
edit: stone city should NOT whip the worker T100 under any circumstances. You want to get the max OF from the 2 pop whip of the worker, so you want about 29 hammers invested in the worker build before you whip it. So you should only whip the worker T101 if aesthetics is finished or will finish on T101. So that we can trade for alphabet on T102 and start a spy build with the max OF from the worker whip.

I thought Isengard should switch to sheep the turn yama is finishing the sheep pasture. I think this gets the 3rd pop 1 turn earlier.

If you are playing with mabraham's test game instead of the one I updated, you are being mislead about the research rate. Mabraham did not take out currency in his test game, so in his test game we are getting an additional trade route in every city that we are not going to get in the real game.

I think we only go 100% research on T98 in the real game.

Definitely build a chariot in GPFarm not a galley.

Just to be clear, the Gspy's goal if the city gift to the western witches is successful is to get to the western witches culture.

The city gift has to be to Monty who only has 3 cities. If on T97 he has 4 cities, do not move the settler! You will not be able to give him the city. You should stop on T97 and consult because our plans will need to change.

The workboat coming around the north of our land should explore the northern shoreline of the northern witches. Once the workboat in the southern part of the northern witches cultural gets back to the GPFarm area, I assume we should just keep it for the eventual use by ivory city.
 
Bcool's advice looks pretty good. I'll toss in a few thoughts too.

Did we ever decide on gifting away iron for warrior building?

Also, if we are going to grow GPfarm that much instead of building a settler, watch out for the happy cap.

I like Isengarde's build, but can we switch from barracks to axeman at or before 19:hammers: out of 50:hammers:, grow to size 4, then switch back to barracks and 2 pop whip? We will have 2 great food tiles and a granary working for us, and might squeeze out an extra troop that we might not have had so early such as another chariot.
 
I didn't want to complicate WW's turnset with the iron gift, since it would require some carefully timing to build warriors, and connect the copper to get the axemen. But if he is up for it, I think the iron gift is better so we can build some warriors.

The warrior near silver city needs to move to GPFarm to be its MP to avoid happiness issues. The warrior won't be needed for fog busting once the borders on silver city pop next turn.

I agree with Kaitzilla that we want to 2 pop the barracks in Isengard when it is at about 19 hammers (but no more than 19 hammers) so we can get the axe the next turn. So if the hammers will go over 19 we need to switch off the barracks to either the axeman (if we keep the iron) or to a lighthouse if we gift away the iron.
 
I figured it is easier to comment PPP's written in classical format than screenshots, so I plan on writting down a shortened 'till Aesthetics PPP right now.

By complicated I ment lots of units and cities to take care of. I knew about the Iron gift plan, just didn't mentioned it yet, and didn't know it was such a fine micro job. How long of a time frame you had in mind? GP farm can produce one on T97, as it has 18 OF, plus 1 city tile. We waste 4 hammers this way, so I guess it's a no-no. If we use the GP farm's GH mine, we could get 2 warriors in 8 turns with 2 OF. It would grow slower, but since we are not in Caste, it doesn't matter that much. It's the Isengaard micro that has to be carefully managed, but I think I am up to the task. With your advice/assistance, it cant fail, and if it's the best play for the team, it's the best play for me too.
You already provided some of the info needed in the last post, so I'll see how it fits my spreadsheets.
If only I learned how to use mabraham's fabulous calculator :(. No time for whinning now, let's get this job done.
 
Walter Wolf there are several things in mabraham's and my update to his test game that are not correct. One of these things in the OF hammers in GPFarm... so be careful making assuming using the test game, the other big one is mabraham didn't take out currency (that I mentioned before).

I'll try to write up the details for an iron gift and warrior builds when I get home today in about 5-6 hours.
 
I'm sorry I haven't been able to comment before now.

It is fine if you play in 2 sessions, in fact I request you must stop T101? when aesthetics is done since we will have tech trading options.

All right, I'll make a new PPP

I'm not sure I will have time to go into the details, but...
In Washington, you want to work tiles so you can 3 pop the aqueduct and finish the chop of the forest on the same turn. So hoover should not mine the grass hill for 1 turn, but should move road, then move to the forest and chop straight through.
Washington details
T96 finish library sheep, corn, cows, grass mine
T97 aqueduct started add river plains mine
T98 same
T99 switch river plains mine to lake
T100 3 pop the aqueduct (should have 39/100 on the aqueduct, and chop of the forest 2S2E finishes the same turn if hoover is not artificially delayed)

I thought we will put the chops in the HG, but I'll do it this way.

I'm not sure rerouting Goodyear to help with the chop south of Boston makes sense. If we have hoover chop it, he will finish T104 which might delay the settler for the marble site, but this is okay in my mind.

All right. Do you think building the three remaining mines for the GP farm (in time for the great library and national epic) makes sense?

In fact Gems city can put both chops into the settler, but delay finishing the settler until we time its arrival with the chop of the forest south of boston on T104.

I think this is best since Goodyear has productive things to do for the GPFarm.

Gems city could get us a warrior (if we go with the "iron plan"), and build a lighthouse.

Stone city should only 2 pop whip the worker T100 if you are sure that we will finish aesthetics even after we 2 pop whip the worker and lose the commerce/science those 2 pop are producing for us.
edit: stone city should NOT whip the worker T100 under any circumstances. You want to get the max OF from the 2 pop whip of the worker, so you want about 29 hammers invested in the worker build before you whip it. So you should only whip the worker T101 if aesthetics is finished or will finish on T101. So that we can trade for alphabet on T102 and start a spy build with the max OF from the worker whip.

roger that, I'll have to be carefull not to exceed 29. Or, maybe we could start a settler here instead of the worker for the ivory site, or settle the gems city with the gems settler, and whip this one to settle the marble site after T104.

I thought Isengard should switch to sheep the turn yama is finishing the sheep pasture. I think this gets the 3rd pop 1 turn earlier.

All right.

If you are playing with mabraham's test game instead of the one I updated, you are being mislead about the research rate. Mabraham did not take out currency in his test game, so in his test game we are getting an additional trade route in every city that we are not going to get in the real game.

I think we only go 100% research on T98 in the real game.

I've been playing with your update. There is a difference in gold/income in the test game and the screenshots Kaizilla took, I noticed that, so I have to trust you on this.

Definitely build a chariot in GPFarm not a galley.

Just to be clear, the Gspy's goal if the city gift to the western witches is successful is to get to the western witches culture.

The city gift has to be to Monty who only has 3 cities. If on T97 he has 4 cities, do not move the settler! You will not be able to give him the city. You should stop on T97 and consult because our plans will need to change.

OK, that is a game stop point. I hope you will be my chat shaddow doring gameplay like last time, so I shouldn't miss this.

The workboat coming around the north of our land should explore the northern shoreline of the northern witches. Once the workboat in the southern part of the northern witches cultural gets back to the GPFarm area, I assume we should just keep it for the eventual use by ivory city.

Well, there is at least something easy to remember this turnset.
 
Walter Wolf there are several things in mabraham's and my update to his test game that are not correct. One of these things in the OF hammers in GPFarm... so be careful making assuming using the test game, the other big one is mabraham didn't take out currency (that I mentioned before).

I'll try to write up the details for an iron gift and warrior builds when I get home today in about 5-6 hours.

OK, this will probably postpone everything, but I'll still post a draft PPP for you guys to start flaming :D.
 
I've just run a test with gifting iron away.

This is the Isengaard and the respective workers plan. I tried the shortest "no strategic resource" path.

Isengard
T96 builds barracks, working fish and horse
T98 switch horse to sheep
T99 Grows, working fish, sheep and horse, Barracks are at 18hammers, start warrior
T101 Grows, add copper mine, Warrior done, start another
T103 2nd warrior done, 2 pop whip barracks, work fish and sheep
T104 3XP Axemen done

Yamasaki
T96 moves to sheep, and builds pasture
T99 move to bronze
T100 build mine
T102 build road
T103 move W, build road

Fritz
T96 Chops the forest for the settler
T97 move to sheep, finish road
T98 move 1S1W, 1T road
T99 move to bronze
T100 build mine
T102 Build road
T103 move W, build road

Some 8 or 9 warriors were built in GP farm, stone and gems city. If we want more warriors, we should go for the 1 worker near Isengard route, or delaying the road 1W of copper by pasturizing the cows.

Is this what you had in mind?
 
something like that, but I would partially build a chariot in Isengard instead of 2 warriors. And plan to finish it after the barracks and axemen.

We only need about 3-4 warriors (maybe up to 5) but I think we want to keep our unit count low to avoid paying excessive upkeep for our units. 8 or 9 warriors is too many for our immediate purposes.

I'll look at the details and give you more specifics soon.
 
Gifting Iron details...

T96 gift iron to an eastern witch

Gems city
T96 Settler (chop finishes)
T97 workboat finishes (use grass mine not plains mine)
T98 warrior (will finish) (hopefully city gift works, so no lake availiable so turn off 1 scientist, work Grass mine and grass forest hill--this will allow gems to grow 1 turn earlier)
T99 settler (turn off grass forest hill replace scientist)
T100 warrior (work lake instead of mine)
T101 warrior (work PM, GM instead of lake)
T102 Settler will finish this turn to be settled T105 near SE Marble I believe (after the chop of the forest 1S of boston

GPFarm
T96 warrior build
T97 warrior build (will finish in the real game this turn -- in the test game it finishes on T96 so you must waste the excess hammers in the test game with some random build) work coast not the grass mine
T98 turn on 2 scientists work on Moai (since want just growth here and it will not finish any build so why not Moai, if we think we will never build Moai anywhere in our empire these hammers will eventually be wasted. So maybe put random hammers into a barracks? Any hammers into a unit I think will decay before GPFarm builds the NE and the Great Library)
T99 Moai
T100 Moai & add grassland farm not a mine
T101 Moai 0r maybe Shwedagon Paya if we have trade for the right techs
T102 Moai or Shwedagon Paya & add coast not mine

Isengard
T96 Barracks
T97 Barracks
T98 Barracks (and work sheep not horses)
T99 chariot (sheep, horses, fish)
T100 same
T101 2 pop barracks (working fish and sheep)
T102 axeman (working sheep and horses to finish axe this turn) (copper hooked up this turn)

Worker details
Karl
T96 roads the sheep
T97 moves 1S1W roads and stops
T98 moves to copper hill
T99 road
T100 road
T101 mines copper (with Yama)
T102 mines copper (with Yama)

Yama
T96 sheep pasture
T97 sheep pasture
T98 sheep pasture (finished)
T99 move 1E and road
T100 road
T101 move to copper hill and mine
T102 mine copper (finishes with Karl)

we build a total of only 3 warriors (1 in GPFarm and 2 in gems)
We get the axe on T102 and a partial build of a chariot in Isengard

We can either cancel the iron trade T106 or we can keep it for eventual diplo bonuses. We could gift away copper on T106 and possibly build more warriors but I think 3 for now is plenty.

attached save game as example, I have the rest of game details if you want the full plan to produce that save game.

I also see that we will likely finish asthetics T99, so tech trades T100 most likely. If so, we might want to whip the worker early in Stone city despite my instructions to the contrary, we might be able to finish the spy with less then max OF.
 

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