SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Grifftavian]

Will point out one of the biggest AP cheese's is out. i.e change religions one turn before the AP is built and then go back to your original religion.

Ideally we need to limit the spread of hindu. i.e one city per civ is good. We would have to rely on other means for improving relations. Gifting techs for +4, resources +2, shared war... etc so might be do-able though I think agg AI makes it harder as well with more hidden negatives. Other option is share religion with 2 other civs and make sure one votes for us which would probably be a requirement.

Edit. Without knowing more about the surrounding area settling on the stone/marble could lead to a very poor production capital. Especially the stone if there are no more hills.

Double Edit. I also like the idea of a cultural game with the stone for early mids etc.

Good point about the religion changing gambit for an AP Victory.

And once we spread Hinduism to another Civ, how much that Civ spreads it to their other cities is out of our control. As someone pointed out earlier, spreading it to a medium or large Civ might eventually make them our competitor for the AP Election.

IMO, our Fearless Leader Gandhi is one of the better Leaders for attempting a Cultural Victory. He is Philosophical & Spiritual. Philosophical has a nice synergy with having Stone and building Pyramids for early Representation Civic. Combine that with a bee-line to Code of Laws (Caste System Civic & found Confucianism) and Philosophy (Pacifism Civic & found Taoism), and all we need is a good high food city to set up a Great Artist Farm, which would be a great start to a Cultural Victory. Spiritual means no Anarchy when we switch to those Great Person friendly Civics, and has double speed production of the Temples we need to build those Catherdals and their +50% bonus.

 

[adrianj]

Ironically, being Philosophical implies that having a single GP Farm is slightly inferior to many mini-GPFarms. This is because the National Epic is actually only a +50% bonus at most in real terms, and for the smaller cities they still all get the +100% Philo bonus.

Some Musings on a 100% cultural game

This assumes a "typical" focussed culture game that advances only as far as Liberalism/Nationalism and then quits teching.

Regarding GP and GArtist bombs.
I would expect that we could generate upwards of 15 great people, perhaps 14 of them artists. 10 great people costs sum(100:100:1000) = 5500. The next 5 cost sum(1200:200:2000) = 8000. Assuming the first is a GS (Academy, Philo/Edu bulb, whatever) then we get 14 artists for the price of 13400. That's 14*4000 / 13400 = 4.1/ when cultured bombed. I'm not counting the free GArtist we might get from Music, as it doesn't affect any costs.

Now consider the legendary cities, and how we would want to improve their terrain.
A farm is worth half a specialist (provided enough ), so under Caste System that would likely be half an artist which is worth 0.5,2,3, aka, 0.5,14.3. It's likely slightly better than this if the 2 base gets multiplied by Cathedrals/civics/Hermitage. And better still if we're Pacifist. So late game assuming Representation, Free Speech, Caste System, Pacifism and +200% from buildings we're looking at 2,8,4.5 = 2,26.5. This is also independent of the Research/Culture Slider

A cottage as we all know takes some time to grow. Early game as it grows from cottage->town it might be averaging +2. I'll ignore any bonus from rivers, since they also apply to farms. It's also likely that in the early game we aren't running much of a culture slider, so this comparison isn't particularly relevant when talking about culture. So I'll just move on to the late game, where a Town with Free Speech and +200% from buildings is generating 6 = 24 assuming a 100% culture slider.

On these numbers, it looks like the Town is inferior to the farm, but the requirement for in the farm approach is a big IF.

The Cottage/Town city gets better if we tech to Printing Press.
The Farm city gets better if we build the Parthenon, and much better if we build Sistine Chapel.

I propose we organise our capital as a heavy city, and build a bunch of key world wonders: Pyramids, Parthenon, Sistine Chapel and maybe Statue of Zeus, MoM, AP and Taj Mahal. Our next two legendary cities are organised as GPFarms, one of which gets National Epic. Our satellite cities are organised for food/production and switch between building temples, paying the bills (build Wealth), and generating GArtists.

since we are Spiritual we could change to Slavery for a short period for a round of heavy whipping, including requisite Cathedrals. Another bonus that the farm approach has over the towns, is that our cities will grow back quickly after these whip fests.

Production Capital
Looking only at visible terrain in the starting screenshot, settling
1E gives +3,13 at size 5 working Corn,FP Farm, Stone, Marble, GMine.
1S yields +4,11 at size 5, trading Stone for GMine.
On Marble +7,9 at size 5, trading stone for a grassland farm.
On Stone could yield the same as Marble if we think there is a GMine NW of the stone, but we can't really tell for sure.

On Marble actually has an equal sum of + to 1E, but I think it's better than that since IMO food > hammers in the early game at least. It does cost us a turn to move there, but I think it's worth it.

 

[Ronnie1]

Great analysis aj!!!

I especially like the farm -vs- cottage comparison and the settling comparison for stimulating early debate!

My gut said go the marble, and that there will be more resources in the fog also. Would moving the warrior SE or SW to try and confirm other hills or resources be advisable if we are already leaning towards settling there?

 

[adrianj]

If we're choosing between Stone or Marble, we could base this decision on which resource we want earlier access to. In our case this would most likely be Stone for Pyramids.

Not aiming for Cottages also somewhat simplifies our early tech path as well, since the only worker tech we really need is Agriculture. This frees us up to pursue other things like the Masonry->Monotheism line for another early religion. Possibly add BW before those two to see if we have copper nearby, which might be needed for barb defence. Pottery is still great for Granaries however.

Oracle: Code of Laws seems a good target here, since we could found a religion as well as get access to Caste System.

To kick off the dicussion on tech path: Poly -> Agri -> BW -> Masonry -> Monotheism -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Code of Laws (Oracle)? This would secure three religions. Alternative to Code of Laws could be Theology, which is higher value and also gives a free religion. Going long range, continue with:
Meditation -> Philosophy (bulb, another religion) -> Aesthetics -> Literature -> Music. Insert Civil Service somewhere in here. Paper -> Education -> Liberalism => Nationalism -> Drama. Done.


(Yes, I know this is all pretty irrelevent looking so far ahead, but there's not much else to do! )

 

[Grifftavian]

I don't have a problem settling on the Marble if that's what we decide to do, but it should be pointed out that settling 1E or 1S provides +2 once we get the Marble Quarry built and start working it (+3 if/when run Bureaucracy until Free Speech is available). That's 2 or 3 extra or while we're binary researching our way to Liberalism, and 2 to 4 extra once we go to 0% research and start running max Culture Slider under Free Speech. Is that better than the +2 in the city square from settling on the Marble?

Cross-post with aj

 

[Grifftavian]

If we're choosing between Stone or Marble, we could base this decision on which resource we want earlier access to. In our case this would most likely be Stone for Pyramids.<snip>

If we settle on the Stone, should we consider founding City #2 or the Marble? Or vice versa (settle Marble, city #2 on Stone)? If we did that, the two cities would share the Corn, FP & Grass tile 1E of FP. Both cities would have +2 in their city squares, and we would have immediate access to both Stone & Marble once we learn Masonry.

I don't think we'll start building The Pyramids until the Capitol has built, at a minimum, 1 Worker, 2 Warriors and a Settler, and we may want to build an additional Warrior and Settler to get three cities underway before we start on The Pyramids. So founding the Capitol on the Stone not that much of a priority, especially if city #2 goes on the other resource Plains Hill.

 

[Sleepless]

Without knowing the surrounding area I still fancy SIP for a monster prod capital as AJ suggested. Plus we know we have at least 3 resource tiles in the BFC this way. Obviously settling the marble or stone will mean some time before we have the other resource in our control.

If we move the warrior SE that will give us some information before we need to decide.

Tech path I agree with poly - agr settling either resource puts me off a bit from masonry though a run through mas - mono and pick up Judaism/OR is not a bad idea. We will no more by then though.

Edit. Obv founding Hindu will enable us to pop borders alot earlier in the cap.

 

[mc-red]

First of as I am new to many members of the team, I wanted to mention that I am not at the same level as many of you and play SG's as a way to improve and get more out of CIV IV than just single play against the AI. Really, enjoying the discussion so far.

Great analysis on culture Adrianj. The one thing that I am not sure about is that I think of a cottage city as about 10-12 cottages. For the analysis that means about 5-6 specialists so about size 15-17cities for legendary city number's 2 and 3. Does that sound about right? Also, we would probably have at least one other GP farm but of course only it's GPP to culture output would be relevant.

On moving warrior it sounds like the choices of moving warrior of SW and SE are really to differentiate between settling either in place or 1 E on T0 and on marble or 1S of start on T1.

Moving SW will expose 2W of start which will be lost by going 1 E or to the marble. So if there is for example a double corn (I believe corn can cluster) this will be eliminated. This would imply SIP. Resources south of this tile would either favour a move to the marble or SIP. If we would still prefer SIP then no point sending warrior there in the first place, so I guess the implication is we would move settler to marble if nothing 2W but something South of that. If nothing is found at all would we settle 1E?


Moving SE would not clarify whether 1E or SIP is better but give a feel for the marble city's other side. Also, 2E which is lost to marble city would be revealed. In that case if something 2E we could SIP or gamble nothing 2W and go 1E. If nothing 2E but something south of that I guess again the implication is we move to the marble. EDIT: This is also the riverside of the Marble so might be more interesting as we are more likely to want to work riverside tiles when possible.


Personally, I still like the idea of peaking at the river area near stone by going NE, thus setting up a choice between move to stone or move to marble, which will still reveal the tile 2E although we would be gambling on nothing being 1W of the corn. It also depends if we think having stone without roads is important or not early on

 

[Grifftavian]

First of as I am new to many members of the team, I wanted to mention that I am not at the same level as many of you and play SG's as a way to improve and get more out of CIV IV than just single play against the AI. Really, enjoying the discussion so far.

That's the same reason I started playing the SG's, and I believe it has help me improve! My first was SGOTM 10, so this will be my 6th consecutive SG.

On moving warrior it sounds like the choices of moving warrior of SW and SE are really to differentiate between settling either in place or 1 E on T0 and on marble or 1S of start on T1.

Moving SW will expose 2W of start which will be lost by going 1 E or to the marble. So if there is for example a double corn (I believe corn can cluster) this will be eliminated. This would imply SIP. Resources south of this tile would either favour a move to the marble or SIP. If we would still prefer SIP then no point sending warrior there in the first place, so I guess the implication is we would move settler to marble if nothing 2W but something South of that. If nothing is found at all would we settle 1E?


Moving SE would not clarify whether 1E or SIP is better but give a feel for the marble city's other side. Also, 2E which is lost to marble city would be revealed. In that case if something 2E we could SIP or gamble nothing 2W and go 1E. If nothing 2E but something south of that I guess again the implication is we move to the marble. EDIT: This is also the riverside of the Marble so might be more interesting as we are more likely to want to work riverside tiles when possible.


Personally, I still like the idea of peaking at the river area near stone by going NE, thus setting up a choice between move to stone or move to marble, which will still reveal the tile 2E although we would be gambling on nothing being 1W of the corn. It also depends if we think having stone without roads is important or not early on

Looks to me like sending the Warrior into the NE Forest would defog 4 tiles, while sending him into any of the other forests, or 1E, or 1W would defog 3 tiles. My preferences for the Warrior are 1SW, to look at the western riverside tiles, of 1NE for the reasons mc-red mentioned above.

 

[Ronnie1]

Can I please get a count of who wants to be put into the rotation for actually playing sets?

I am starting to favor the warrior NE to give a better look to the "Stone Mountain" as our capitol city.

EDIT: One of the reasons I favor settling on one of the quarry resources is the +2 we get from the tile that way. Generally speaking, I try to settle tiles that would not normally provide food, there by saving the surrounding higher food tiles for development.

 

[Grifftavian]

Can I please get a count of who wants to be put into the rotation for actually playing sets?...

Please put me in the turn set batting order.

 

[adrianj]

@ron - count me in this time

 

[mc-red]

Hi Ronnie I'd like to be in the rotation too

 

[Conquistador 63]

I am fine either way, can play if needed (preferrably earlier than later in the game), but could also just take part in the discussions.

 

[McArine]

I'm ready to play turns.

 

[Sleepless]

Me to.

I would like to point out that if there aren't any other resources around the marble/stone it could lead to a pretty awful capital. Another point if the stone is on a river when we put a quarry on there it should automatically be available as the river though not attached to our capital would still be in our cultural borders.

 

[Grifftavian]

Our starting save is available from the Progress & Results page!

Attached is a screen shot of the starting position, zoomed in a bit more than what was available. It appears to me from this screen shot that the river does not continue south past the Marble Hill.

 

[Ronnie1]

If you zoom in all the way on the save you can see the northern river in the NE corner of the NE forest square. It moves off to the east from there, and obviously goes N by NW because it is in contact with the Stone.

The southern river stops at the Marble.

I believe settling on the Stone would put more river tiles in the BFC than settling on the Marble based on what we can see now.

The roster order is

Conquistador63 = UP NOW!
Ronnie1 = on deck
sleepless = in the hole
McArine = waiting
adrianj = waiting
Grifftavian = waiting
mc-red = waiting
Ozbenno = waiting
da_Vinci = waiting

 

[Grifftavian]

Some more interesting screen shots! The map is Tropical Climate with Low Sea Level. Someone has already founded Buddhism, and the Holy City/Capitol has the Buddhist Shrine!

 

[Ronnie1]

That is very interesting indeed. Here are 2 more screens that I find interesting.

Notice that there are 8 rivals as in the pre-game announcement.

However, we are ranked 10th in all categories.

I wonder if ALL the AI capitols were pre-founded? I bet they were, so is there a pre-founded barb city that puts us behind them also?