SGOTM 18 - Fifth Element

[Shaandore]

Hi!

About top 5 cities screen:

City Worth = Pop*(0.2*C + F + P + G)

where
Pop: City population
C: Culture accumulated; not the rate
F: Food rate
P: Production rate
G: Gold generated (nor commerce or beakers) ; Via slider,buildings like shrines or specialists

So if the wonders are in the same city, then that city is extremely food/production/commerce poor. In the long run 1 wonder cities will need almost double its size to keep up with the culture accumulating in the hyphotetical 2-wonder city.

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will not comment on this PPP yet because I haven't been around, maybe tomorrow I can fire up the game, but feel free to proceed if you can.

 

[Folket]

They ARE in the same city and it's not the one close to us, period.
You still have given no reason why they are both in the same city.

But i must admit you're right, we can't see the city so we can't see the city's name in F9, so we shoud not know where they are. Theoretically. Practically can be different.

Just to say one thing, that city should have 3rd borders by now, thus it's impossible it is the one S of us.
If the city is three tiles south and there is land N of the city it could be.

Can we close this discussion and think to how move on?
I still want to hear the reasons you believe they are in the same city. Either we can debunk them and we can agree or I have missed something and I learn something new.

Looking at the colour of the ocean it seems like we can reach Goldmembers with Galleys. I also think that is the second ring. as the NW tile inside their borders seems to be ocean. I would like to have our SE corner surveyed so we may be sure.

 

[BLubmuz]

Looking at the colour of the ocean it seems like we can reach Goldmembers with Galleys. I also think that is the second ring. as the NW tile inside their borders seems to be ocean. I would like to have our SE corner surveyed so we may be sure.

I think the borders we can see are ocean.
I WB some coast 3S and the ocean we can see looks lighter, with just a tiny deeper blue row in the middle.

 

[Folket]

Still we can see if it is coast the tile to the east at least. If that is ocean probably it is two tiles of oceans between us.

 

[pigswill]

Played 12 turns following Blubmuz's excellent advice:

Improved east cottage, built west road, improved west cottage, worker heading towards copper hill.

Scout went in a general north-west direction, north warrior skirted to the north of Mongolia, south warrior checked our locality.

New York founded T25, started on a workboat.

Washington's built one warrior (heading south west to check coast) and started on another.

Researched wheel, hunting, AH. Played a couple of extra turns to finish off AH. Research switched to myst but 100% cash and no beakers invested.

Something to discuss:



Some more stuff to discuss:

Spoiler :

Some demographics to peruse:



And even a save to study: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Fifth_Element_SG018_BC2880_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[BLubmuz]

Seems a good half set, pigswill. I suppose you'll play some more 8-12 turns after we have some short term ideas.

Those horses do nothing but confirm my proposal to settle the river corner. 1N of horses. Not great, but almost.

Your screenies are very small. i can't see the worker. Is a Mali scout the one near the copper?

By the few i can see, Evil's lair seems surrounded by mountains. Mansa should be NW of Joao, so Gandhi should be W of Mansa.

Oops, missed the last row... i'll look at the save tomorrow

 

[unclethrill]

Great set Pigswill!

 

[pigswill]

So, what now?

Assuming we're rushing do we go for a two city axe rush, three city HA rush or something in between?

We could certainly do with another worker sooner rather than later.

Do we want to research mysticism and build a monument in Nyork?

Did anyone notice another purple patch in the south west?

 

[BLubmuz]

So, what now?

Yes! so, what?
According to the roster we're in 7 people. By now anyone should be active. IIRC anyone is back home and normally busy.

I was posting something yesterday when i saw your post.
I was hoping to see some activity related to an interesting half set. Aside UT (just an half row) nothing.

I'm expenting some comments and proposals for the short and the long term.

About short term, an ideal rush is with 2 cities, but one is not much productive. In addition, both our present cities do not have forests.

So i think that a 3rd city placed where i suggested can more than pay for the settler, due to the high number of forests. We don't even need to chop all, i think that an half can be OK for barracks and units.

I noticed you're growing Wash. Wrong. If it grows, it passes the health cap, so a settler at size 4 takes the same turns as at size 3. We can pass the health cap, but later. Now i suggest warrior - settler - worker at max hammers.

 

[unclethrill]

I believe the horse archer rush on Joao is the best choice. So we want a settler ASAP to settle the horses. We need to get HBR and Archery in the research queue. Then HA enough to take at least a couple cities from Joao.

This is the general idea to move forward. If you will post a more detailed PPP then we can work to refine it.

 

[pigswill]

Settler at pop 4 takes less than 3 if we whip it, even allowing for the turn lost in anarchy. Netted fish gives us 1 extra health which is 1 extra food.

Going for slavery also allows us to whip a worker in NY if speed becomes important.

Not so keen on HA rush because after Joao we'll be face to face with Evil impis. Going for cats could be more useful though obviously longer research time.

Balance will probably depend on micro stuff.

 

[BLubmuz]

I thought you revolted to slavery when the settler was walking. I suppose it's better do it as first thing.

About the HA rush: it takes long, HA are expensive and vulnerable to spears. Only keshiks are worth an HA rush. A good old axe rush is the right thing. A spear and a chariot in each stack is all we need. We don't need any tech, just a settler, a worker, barracks and units. Cheap units, but effective.
If we're good enough 2 cites will be all Joao will have, 3 at most.

 

[unclethrill]

The problem with waiting for cats is that it is no longer a rush. As a team we consistently wait way too long to attack anyone. The teams that win, warrior rush or axe rush their neighbors. As a team, we never do that and that is one of the biggest reasons we perform poorly.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I'm not going to be able to play a set anytime soon. Family issues and finances would keep me from the focus I'd need for team play. I'll watch and add any comments I have!

MF

 

[Folket]

I say we chop forests into axes. Without the forests our chances of a successful rush seems slim.

 

[pigswill]

I wasn't proposing a cataxe rush vs Joao, I was thinking medium term vs Evil as an alternative to going for HbR.

I'm happy to play a few more turns, equally happy for someone else to take over.

Do we want to research mysticism for monument in Nyork?

 

[BLubmuz]

I wasn't proposing a cataxe rush vs Joao, I was thinking medium term vs Evil as an alternative to going for HbR.

I'm happy to play a few more turns, equally happy for someone else to take over.

Do we want to research mysticism for monument in Nyork?

Yeah i don't understand that post by UT about cats when i just posted about axe rush.

Research. If we go for culture an early monument can help. If not and being the Oracle prebuilt, i think writing and more useful techs. I think we can skip any religion tech for awhile.

Later i'll draft some proposals. But i think we need to decide the grand strategy now.
And to see at least who can contribute to the discussion.

 

[unclethrill]

So, what now?

Assuming we're rushing do we go for a two city axe rush, three city HA rush or something in between?

Not so keen on HA rush because after Joao we'll be face to face with Evil impis. Going for cats could be more useful though obviously longer research time.

Balance will probably depend on micro stuff.

Yeah i don't understand that post by UT about cats when i just posted about axe rush.

Pigswill suggested HA rush. I agreed since nobody seemed to be willing to go for an axe rush. The response to my HA post was that we might should go for cats instead. I agree that we should do an axe rush. They should be chopped and we should take Joao out ASAP.

You can see my previous post about the problems we as a team always encounter when we wait too long to start rushing anyone. Lets KILL Joao now!

 

[Folket]

I still think getting free religion, universal suffrage and free market for a diplomatic victory should be our priority.

 

[BLubmuz]

I still think getting free religion, universal suffrage and free market for a diplomatic victory should be our priority.

With this you call for a decision about our long term strategy. I agree on the call, so we can know what to do and plan accordingly.

I vote for Space.

My reasoning:
- Evil's Lair is evidently reachable only with paras. If we wait to be 100% sure, we risk to take the wrong decision. I just assume that is that way.
- Diplo with paras is not much less than Space research wise. You can object that it is, but Space is safer: Kill everyone but a city, stay close to the dom limit ASAP and it's done. In this perspective an early rush is the best we can do. After it a cat rush to Gengis, then Shaka, then we can take care of Mansa and Gandhi. Possibly before rifles. The map seems done for this.
- Culture fits even less with paras, mainly because we can't bomb SP. We need time and EPs to do well there. Also, we can't afford to shut off research with the MP built and all those civs around.