SGOTM 18 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
One way to look at granary is that it doubles excess food for 60 H. In Washington that would be 6 food at size 2 or 4 food at size 3. The new city gives ~2F1C2H at size 1 for 100H. I think granary has better output/cost ratio. And it takes away that unhealth at size 4 that would again make us lose food.
Edit: agree with no barracks in Wash and NY. 1.5 axe > barracks
Edit: agree with no barracks in Wash and NY. 1.5 axe > barracks
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
We already did this mistake. NY can skip them but not Wash.
Shaandore
another mathematician
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2010
- Messages
- 868
What do you mean we already did this? And why do you think it was/would be a mistake?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
We did it in the SG as Louis.
Why? 3XP mean a lot and Wash has enough production to produce many units during the game.
NY can skip, after this rush it won't produce any unit, or almost.
pigswill
fly (one day)
If you're looking at rushing one city then rax probably ain't worthwhile. If you're looking for rushing 2-3 cities (or more) then the extra XP starts making a difference because CR1 units have a better winning chance (i.e. surviving and gaining more XP) and will likely be CR2 units for the next city.
I've also been wondering about cats. I was thinking that we could research writing and build a library in NYork while growing Nyork to pop 5 (working cottage FP, copper, fish and running 2 scientists) to bulb maths while we save up some cash to research construction at 100%.
I've also been wondering about cats. I was thinking that we could research writing and build a library in NYork while growing Nyork to pop 5 (working cottage FP, copper, fish and running 2 scientists) to bulb maths while we save up some cash to research construction at 100%.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Joao will surely have 2 cities by the time we'll be ready. Maybe even 3, he's imperialistic and usually he expands very quickly.
I plan to use chariots as cannon fodder and axes to finish the job. Chariots are cheaper than axes and can even retreat.
"Send untrained units to the front is a waste of lives"
In our case of hammers
I plan to use chariots as cannon fodder and axes to finish the job. Chariots are cheaper than axes and can even retreat.
"Send untrained units to the front is a waste of lives"
In our case of hammers
pigswill
fly (one day)
Played up to 2440bc (T39).
T29. Mansa builds Timbuktu.
T31. Washington warrior>granary. Revolution.
T32 Anarchy.
T33. Slavery. Washington pop 4. Granary(9h)>settler.
T35. GM born in a distant land (bit early).
Nyork up to pop2.
T36. GK founds Turfan.
T37. Nyork WB>worker. Fish improved for +1 health.
T38. Washington's settler 62h (double whip for 22 overflow, wait a turn and single whip for 3 overflow).
NYork can whip worker next turn or build it in 4.
Research has been at 0, we have some gold in the bank.
NYork might need some culture....
Wonders are indeed divided:
North west has been explored a bit more.
Warrior still on the way to explore southwest.
I'm flying to Brazil in a few hours.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Fifth_Element_SG018_BC2440_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
T29. Mansa builds Timbuktu.
T31. Washington warrior>granary. Revolution.
T32 Anarchy.
T33. Slavery. Washington pop 4. Granary(9h)>settler.
T35. GM born in a distant land (bit early).
Nyork up to pop2.
T36. GK founds Turfan.
T37. Nyork WB>worker. Fish improved for +1 health.
T38. Washington's settler 62h (double whip for 22 overflow, wait a turn and single whip for 3 overflow).
NYork can whip worker next turn or build it in 4.
Research has been at 0, we have some gold in the bank.
NYork might need some culture....
Wonders are indeed divided:
North west has been explored a bit more.
Warrior still on the way to explore southwest.
I'm flying to Brazil in a few hours.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Fifth_Element_SG018_BC2440_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Sorry being unexpectedly out of for a moment. I can follow discussion (Saturday will be finally full online) but my machine is very unstable now (lovely bluescrren - winXP 
) and after BUG install I have problems with BUFFY, so I won\t dare to download any file.
) and after BUG install I have problems with BUFFY, so I won\t dare to download any file.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
I think we need to get a WB exploring ASAP to verify this is true (i'm colorblind so the subtle differences in ocean vs coast colors is beyond my perception). We should also see what units GM has. If he could be axe rushed then having either or both of those wonders would be nice. Not sure if Axe rushing GM is a better long term choice than to rush Joao but it does seem like something we should discuss.
Who is up next? Anyone?
GM will build galleys with axes and prets and attack us time and again. We should really try to take him out soon. Joao will spend his time cutting down the jungle making his land more suitable for conquest if we wait a little.
We should probably run a couple of test games to see what we need against either Joao or GM.
We should probably run a couple of test games to see what we need against either Joao or GM.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
First off, pigswill did well to stop where he did. We can verify which is the best option for whips in both cities. His only mistake was to not revolt while the settler was idle. A pity for such a player. I think we have communication problems this game.
Well, Folket was right and i the opposite... do anyone knows the english word for that?
The only thing we can do against GM if there isn't a passage for the galleys, is to have some axe garrisoning NY (including the copper hill).
Pretorians are not guaranteed, he must have iron. I prefer them to axes, in any case.
We must take Joao ASAP. Nonetheless, we must keep NY well guarded. I suggest an axe added to the warrior in the city and another one over the hill.
Folket, do you want the honour?
Well, Folket was right and i the opposite... do anyone knows the english word for that?
The only thing we can do against GM if there isn't a passage for the galleys, is to have some axe garrisoning NY (including the copper hill).
Pretorians are not guaranteed, he must have iron. I prefer them to axes, in any case.
We must take Joao ASAP. Nonetheless, we must keep NY well guarded. I suggest an axe added to the warrior in the city and another one over the hill.
Folket, do you want the honour?
pigswill
fly (one day)
If we can get culture in New York and push its borders into ocean tiles then GM can´t use galleys to cross our ocean tiles afaik. At the moment we´re vulnerable to invasion and we can´t cross his ocean tiles anyway. Maybe monument or as I suggested earlier get writing (4 turns @100%), build library and get NY running scientists at pop 5.
In terms of timing the slavery revolt in my test runs I discovered that if I revolted while worker was mining copper and Washy was building warrior then the mine got finished before the warrior which turned the warrior build into a spear build which slowed up everything else. Its possible that the test save isn´t identical to the real game but that´s why I delayed slavery.
edit: I´m not one of these clever code-breakers but I suspect that warior would have finished the same turn as the mine and the code must check resources before completing builds.
Its possible that GM can cross ocean outside our second culture ring to the east. GM has two cities, the one next to us and another to the south west. Its a toss up which wonder the nearest city contains.
In terms of timing the slavery revolt in my test runs I discovered that if I revolted while worker was mining copper and Washy was building warrior then the mine got finished before the warrior which turned the warrior build into a spear build which slowed up everything else. Its possible that the test save isn´t identical to the real game but that´s why I delayed slavery.
edit: I´m not one of these clever code-breakers but I suspect that warior would have finished the same turn as the mine and the code must check resources before completing builds.
Its possible that GM can cross ocean outside our second culture ring to the east. GM has two cities, the one next to us and another to the south west. Its a toss up which wonder the nearest city contains.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I did not considered this aspect.
Under that you did well to not revolt... i think the lost turn in NY is the price to pay for a cheap unit.
Without need to be a code diver, i can confirm that if the copper mine is ready the turn the warrior is completed, it will be switched to a spear.
About the GM city S, if there's any passage to the S or to the W it's good for us more than for GM.
A culture fight is almost lost, but a library in NY is an obvious choice after a couple axes and a granary. Or even before the granary.
What to research after writing?
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
We definitely should go for sailing if we can get to GM. If we can spare the hammers for a WB we can know quickly. I have to agree that taking at least 1 GM city quickly will mean less hammers spent fighting off his endless line of attackers and wil get us a useful wonder early. Then we turn the war machine on Joao with (hopefully) Praets and roll over him.
After nearly complete reinstallation of nearly everything I am back 
and able to be put somewhere in the rooster.
Things to brainstorm
A
Boston, settler, worker
B
First Victim
and depending on B
C
tech order
and
D stack composition
A
Washington is 4, 22 production, I will wait 1 turn, swap wheat, marble to cottages to have max 7 prod and whip at 29prod. More overflow into granary = earlier granary.
NY - we have to little food stored to waste one great tile until regrowth. It is probably the same amount of turns as producing worker in normal way. I like continue worker in common way, put cottage witj him while roading 1NW and 1 W, grow to nearly size 3, switch to another worker before growing and whip another one worker when whipping unhappines ends. We need at least 4 workers to chop and road toward Joao, 2 would be enough if we decide to go for GM first.
Boston - I like 1S of pigs, future HE or Ironworks.
B
Joao
- need a lot of workers to get roads
- danger of meeting DrEvil stack against our weaken stack
- maintanance costs higher than commerce benefits
+ quicker
GM
- less workers but have to build at least 3 galleys
longer preaparation (waiting for lib whip, border pop
+ better commerce benefit
I believe we will be able to take Joao first and quick after that Goldmember, using completely new units, no need to take portuguese conquerors back. Risky naval rush is not worth getting wonders giving benefits to only ONE our city. Anyway, Library is the must to block coast
C
Techs
With food nice cities we need writing first if we want to aviod stacking whip unhappines. Just after this our priority is sailing, with this nice rivers flowing rhrough mountains ranges early trade routes is possible.
D Stack composition.
Some suicide chariots - they are 30H so not possible to doublewhip/ I like NY - 2 scientist fish and copper will do enough.
I like the idea of barracks in capital but also think chopped barracks in Boston will work. With all this forest around it is 2 more turns turning into huge benefit
Anyway
Next turnset should concentrate on:
1) the most effective way to settle Boston
2) Getting granaries online and tech to writing
3) Improve horses / pigs and get 2 more workers
Military buildup can go in next turnset
and able to be put somewhere in the rooster.Things to brainstorm
A
Boston, settler, worker
B
First Victim
and depending on B
C
tech order
and
D stack composition
A
Washington is 4, 22 production, I will wait 1 turn, swap wheat, marble to cottages to have max 7 prod and whip at 29prod. More overflow into granary = earlier granary.
NY - we have to little food stored to waste one great tile until regrowth. It is probably the same amount of turns as producing worker in normal way. I like continue worker in common way, put cottage witj him while roading 1NW and 1 W, grow to nearly size 3, switch to another worker before growing and whip another one worker when whipping unhappines ends. We need at least 4 workers to chop and road toward Joao, 2 would be enough if we decide to go for GM first.
Boston - I like 1S of pigs, future HE or Ironworks.
B
Joao
- need a lot of workers to get roads
- danger of meeting DrEvil stack against our weaken stack
- maintanance costs higher than commerce benefits
+ quicker
GM
- less workers but have to build at least 3 galleys
longer preaparation (waiting for lib whip, border pop
+ better commerce benefit
I believe we will be able to take Joao first and quick after that Goldmember, using completely new units, no need to take portuguese conquerors back. Risky naval rush is not worth getting wonders giving benefits to only ONE our city. Anyway, Library is the must to block coast
C
Techs
With food nice cities we need writing first if we want to aviod stacking whip unhappines. Just after this our priority is sailing, with this nice rivers flowing rhrough mountains ranges early trade routes is possible.
D Stack composition.
Some suicide chariots - they are 30H so not possible to doublewhip/ I like NY - 2 scientist fish and copper will do enough.
I like the idea of barracks in capital but also think chopped barracks in Boston will work. With all this forest around it is 2 more turns turning into huge benefit
Anyway
Next turnset should concentrate on:
1) the most effective way to settle Boston
2) Getting granaries online and tech to writing
3) Improve horses / pigs and get 2 more workers
Military buildup can go in next turnset
