SGOTM 21 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
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Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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Yes, plans must adapt, especially when multiple people on the team feel strongly about an issue.
I am in support of the decision to change our plans, as it was getting much later than desired for us to see a guaranteed return on our gifting investment.
Well, from my brief testing earlier, it looks like a Worst Enemy won't complain about Open Borders until the deal is cancelable. That kind of testing is not 100% guaranteed, but the following code-diving by Tachywaxon backs it up. I added the bolding for emphasis of the relevant point:
Currently, we don't have a mapped-out Coastal path to any of Shaka's Coastal Cities. But, once we do, we can dare to Open Borders with Shaka for 10 turns and Elizabeth won't complain (although she'll probably build up something like 0.05 negative Attitude toward us for the Open Borders agreement, which is something that is too small for us to worry about).
Then, 10 turns after we have revealed a Coastal path to one of Shaka's Cities, we will have to decide whether to cancel the Open Borders deal with Shaka or not.
Of course, once we cancel the deal, it will take a long time for him to want to Open Borders with us again.
So, don't Open Borders yet, as we will only get 10 free turns of Open Borders with someone's Worst Enemy.
In fact, the best time to Open Borders with Shaka might be on the turn after The Great Lighthouse has been completed, and only if we have mapped out a Coastal path to one of his Coastal Cities.
Any time before then, we would gain a maximum of +1 Commerce per turn, and that's only if Willem and Elizabeth do not found a City, in which case we'd gain no extra Commerce per turn.
But, if we only Open Borders with Shaka after BOTH of:
i. we have a Coastal path mapped out to one of Shaka's Coastal Cities
AND
ii. we have completed The Great Lighthouse
then we can earn up to +4 Commerce per turn (potentially less than +4 if all of his Cities are not connected to each other) for 10 turns.
If, say, we uncover Shaka's City 2 turns from now, that means delaying our exploration while our Work Boat sits around, but since we seem to have already met the AI on the other side of Shaka, a bit of potential exploration delay while our Work Boat patiently awaits the completion of The Great Lighthouse is fine.
Or, Shaka might not even have any Coastal Cities, in which case we'll have to reveal a River that is connected to one of his Cities.
Do you feel that the Barb Rush is upon us or was it more of a conincidence? In particular, in which direction were the Barbs coming... from two different angles or clearly from the west?
Actually, if the Barb Rush were happening, based on your sign, we should have already seen those 2 Barbs coming toward our empire, right? I don't see them.
It seems that you have already answered my question. That fact is a relief.
After moving Worker 3 1NW GH For (1W of the G Corn), we'll be able to move Warrior 3 back 1W this turn, so we can better see where those 2 Barbs are located.
Let's assess the situation.
She knows Shaka but not Willem or Elizabeth, so Shaka very likely met her back during my turnset
If it WANTED Elizabeth and Isabella to meet each other (I don't think that we do), we could offer Open Borders to Isabella now, as their Work Boats are close to each other.
Personally, I prefer to keep them from meeting each other for as long as possible, to better control the tech-trading game and the Resource-trading game. That, and the more AIs who know each other, the more chances for one AI to Demand that you stop trading with a trading partner, and the more chances for AIs to get upset when you declare war on another AI.
Shaka is -2 Cautious toward Isabella, but recall earlier that he switched Worst Enemy targets, so he'll likely be Annoyed when at -3 toward Isabella. Of course, their 60 turns of Peace should keep them at -2, at least until Shaka receives a Religion that isn't Isabella's and switches to it.
Isabella is +1 Cautious toward Shaka.
Thus, it's possible that after Isabella gets some techs, she will become Shaka's Worst Enemy... it's hard to tell if she's in the bottom half of the AIs right now or not; if she is not in the bottom half, then Shaka shouldn't start hating her, as he has iBetterRankDifference = 0 and iWorseRankDifference = -2... so, if those variables mean what they say, then he's going to hate people who are several ranks below him.
The test game shows that removing Mining + Writing + Sailing from Willem is worth 18 points on the Scoreboard.
Isabella offers Monotheism but not Meditation for trade.
Isabella makes for a terrible trading partner unless she is Friendly toward you (which means that sharing her State Religion is almost required), as she has:
iTechTradeKnownPercent = 60 (Shaka already has a bad value and his is only 50)
iNoTechTradeThreshold = 5
Monotheism is a non-monopoly tech, so it might be the only tech that we'll ever get out of Isabella in trade, unless we later get her being Friendly toward us.
These trading options are available:
Monotheism from Isabella <-> Writing + Mining
These trading options are not available:
Monotheism from Isabella <-> Sailing + Mining
Monotheism from Isabella <-> Writing + Sailing
What this fact tells us is that Isabella is currently researching Sailing and has learned probably more than half of the tech, as she values Mining (80 Flasks) higher than she values Sailing (162 Flasks).
Thus, I would recommend that we just give her Sailing but DO NOT Open Borders with her. When you meet an AI and give them extra trading value right away, they often give you a nice Fair and Forthright Trading bonus.
What's odd is that Isabella has spent 34 EPs on Shaka and he has spent 0 on Isabella. So, I suppose that I was wrong about the reason for Shaka's EP-spending on us changing and thus I have no clue from the EPs as to when Shaka met Isabella.
What we do know is that Shaka changed who his Worst Enemy was, so, unless Shaka knows someone OTHER than Isabella, we know that Shaka knew Isabella several turns ago when he switched his Worst Enemy status to no longer being Elizabeth even when he was still Annoyed toward Elizabeth.
Isabella has already spent 8 EPs on us!
I believe that you are correct. However, if you gift a tech, I believe that that player's Worst Enemy will hate you by a multiplicative factor of 3 times the value of the tech.
In this case, it probably makes no difference, so we might as well trade her all 3 techs at once.
I don't really want to start propping up every AI we meet just so that Elizabeth will have a chance of liking Shaka.
The only reason why I am okay to give Sailing to Isabella is because she is about to learn it anyway, so we might as well increase her We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced counter toward Shaka, to reduce the number of tech trades that those two can make to each other in the future, and to hopefully get up to +4 Fair and Forthright Trading for having traded on the turn that we met her.
With the low number of Epsionage Points that Shaka and Isabella have spent on each other (especially considering that Isabella could be spending up to 8 EPs per turn), she's probably pretty far to the west of Shaka and thus we don't really want her enabled with techs that much, as it could be a while before we are able to capture Wonders from her, and we don't want her to get to Feudalism before we are ready to attack her.
If she did not have any techs for trade, I probably would have said not to trade with her at all, until we locate her empire.
So, I suggest that we trade:
1. Monotheism from Isabella <-> Writing + Mining + Sailing
2. Do not Open Borders with Isabella
3. I would not gift any additional techs to Isabella until we figure out how far past Shaka her empire is located... we can let her have Sailing since she's probably 2 turns away from learning it, but no more tech gifts
4. If Isabella Demands a tech, give it to her
Now, what's nice about having Monotheism in our back pockets is that we should watch for Elizabeth getting her first Great Person. She build Stonehenge really early and got Writing early from us, so she could potentially have built a Library and hire a Scientist or two, then generate a Great Person really early.
If Elizabeth generates a Great Prophet (watch the Event Log closely, please), we should gift her Monotheism, to unlock a Theology Lightbulb. She's one of the AIs whom I have witnessed Lightbulbing Philosophy to get a Religion, so she's probably do the same for Theology.
Similarly, later, after we have learned Code of Laws, if she generates a Great Scientist, we can gift her Code of Laws so that she can likely Lightbulb Philosophy.
So, keep a close eye on that Event Log for the first AI Great Person being born, which will probably be Elizabeth's Great Person. We will only have 1 turn in which to gift her a tech before she needs to make a decision about what to do with her Great Person.
What we should also consider is that Isabella also knows:
Priesthood
Masonry
Pottery
The techs that she knows are not surprising, as she is Expansive (cheap Granaries from Pottery) and she loves her Religious techs (Masonry was likely teched "on her way" to Monotheism).
But, Isabella does not know:
Theology
Code of Laws
Monarchy
Bronze Working
Iron Working
Mathematics
Alphabet
Aesthetics
Horseback Riding
Isabella, not surprisingly, is the founder of Buddhism, and is very likely to also be the founder of Judaism, what with her getting Monotheism before a tech such as Mining!
Isabella's Favourite Civic is Theocracy (which gets unlocked by Theology).
Isabella currently has 3 Cities
Elizabeth still has 2 Cities
Willem still has 1 City
Shaka still has 4 Cities
The Food and Hammer totals in our Cities and our empire-wide Flasks match the test game. Nice micro work so far!
The Espionage screen indicates that:
Amsterdam has just completed a build item
York has 24 Hammers into a build item
Madrid is the top-ranked City in the world with 8 population points.
Amsterdam is down to 5 population points from 7 population points, so Willem likely just whipped his Settler 2.
The Great Wall's City is 3rd at Size 7 (up from Size 6).
London is 4th at Size 5, but we didn't see it in the top 5 previously, so I don't know what it's previous population was.
Some unknown City is 5th at Size 5.
We're only 9th instead of 10th in the world for population.
GNP:
2 turns ago: ours = 49, Rival Best = 48
now: ours = 63, Rival Best = 54
I'd move Warrior 2 back 1NW GH Riv this turn, as we want that additional spawn-busting to the west of our empire, but I also don't feel safe moving him any further westward than that.
Fortunately, Isabella's Work Boat covered part of our spawn-busting of the area for us at the end of last turn, and her Work Boat would have helped to spawn-bust the area to the south of there the turn before last turn, so this move should be pretty safe to make now.
Yes, Isabella having Sailing will mean that SHE would get Trade Routes with us if we Opened Borders with her, but we would NOT get Trade Routes with her until we map out a Coastal path to one of her Coastal Cities, so we should not Open Borders with her.
The only time that we should probably consider Opening Borders with her is after we've completed The Oracle and we have chosen, after building that Wonder, to change our State Religion (please don't switch to a Religion before we've completed The Oracle)... in which case, we would probably consider Opening Borders before we become a heathen in her eyes.
Dhoom, please explain the "60" in this comment of yours: "Of course, their 60 turns of Peace should keep them at -2, at least until Shaka receives a Religion that isn't Isabella's and switches to it."
Dhoomstriker
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At least on Normal Game Speed, on which we are playing, after 60 turns, each AI player gives every other player (AI or Human) +1 Diplo Attitude for having been at Peace for 60+ turns.
It's one of those things that appears for every interaction on the F4 RELATIONS screen that your brain quickly learns to tune out and ignore as being redundant information, but it's info that appears in nearly every game (assuming that you aren't a total brutal warmongeror who destroys everyone before Turn 60).
And, of course, you won't see the Attitude bonus toward you if you've been involved in a war with an AI within the last 60 turns.
Of course, you are notorious for destroying AIs with your Catapult armies, so we'll be relying on some of your expertise for how to war with Catapults after we amass ourselves an army of Cats + something else (Archers? Phalanx? Chariots?) + Warriors (the Warriors will garrison our capital so that we can quickly grow it to Size 12 or so and then can work a ton of Cottages there from really early on, thanks to getting Monarchy in trade from Willem in the near future).
Spoiler :
Understand now, Dhoom. Thanks.
Turn 62
Traded our techsd for monotheism with Isabella. We now have a route to Isabella.
Found Bulawayo. It is not connected to Shakas capital. Wrong, it updated later. We now have a route to Shaka.
turn 63
Nothing happens. Wrong, Elizabeth got a new city. Elizabeth is also moving her workboat to our SW and will soon met Isabella.
turn 64
Barb warrior coming from the west. An archer is sighted again. I moive warrior 2 back out of sight hoping it will move towards warrior 3, where we can fight over a river.
turn 65
barb warrior moved south. New barb archer spoted in the south.
The Duth now have a second city.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1400_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Traded our techsd for monotheism with Isabella. We now have a route to Isabella.
Found Bulawayo. It is not connected to Shakas capital. Wrong, it updated later. We now have a route to Shaka.
turn 63
Nothing happens. Wrong, Elizabeth got a new city. Elizabeth is also moving her workboat to our SW and will soon met Isabella.
turn 64
Barb warrior coming from the west. An archer is sighted again. I moive warrior 2 back out of sight hoping it will move towards warrior 3, where we can fight over a river.
turn 65
barb warrior moved south. New barb archer spoted in the south.
The Duth now have a second city.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1400_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Spoiler :
I notice that I forgot to pause the game, so be a little careful.
I now realized thast I do not show AI moves. I should probably enable that so I can see where barbs moves from. It is jhust annoying when the AI turn taskes so long when playing by myself.
I now realized thast I do not show AI moves. I should probably enable that so I can see where barbs moves from. It is jhust annoying when the AI turn taskes so long when playing by myself.
Dhoomstriker
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Our Current Tech
Earlier, we were discussing which tech to go for, and I tried to make a case for our currently-chosen tech. People seemed to accept the reasoning, but there is one more key factor that may be related, if we're lucky in being the first player to research Code of Laws and thereby found a Religion.
Let's imagine for an instant that one of our neighbours has teched a tech, such as Feudalism (Willem) or Philosophy (Elizabeth). Well, what can we do to get that tech?
One option is to send, say, a Galley with 2 Settlers and found Cities close to Elizabeth, then immediately Liberate 2 Cities to her, getting +3 Attitude with her to get her up to Friendly status. That's actually not too bad of an idea, if we can spare the production, as then we'll get her tech in exchange for Hammers, and we'll get some good Trade Routes and she can improve the Cities for us.
What about for Willem? Well, we want to relocate his capital anyway. Take a hint from the following screenshot, to see what I'm thinking about:
Yes, that's right... if we manage to found Confucianism, we'll possess a Holy City.
If you are running a State Religion where you own the Holy City, then you can get either a 25% or 40% discount on stealing a tech.
The 25% comes in if the AI is running your State Religion, while the 40% comes in if the AI is running a different State Religion.
Also, if we gift a City with a World Wonder in it, the AI does not get that Wonder's Culture (I just checked), but we will get that Culture per turn again upon capturing that City (again, I just checked).
So, if we gave away The Oracle City, while we'd lose our accumulated GPP, Willem would only earn 2 Culture per turn in a City where we'd already amassed more Culture due to getting 10 Culture per turn (2 from Creative and 8 from The Oracle), so we would have the Cultural advantage in that City for quite some time.
Having a Cultural advantage gives you yet another discount on Espionage missions.
Further, a Cultural advantage reduces or removes the City Revolt period upon recapture and also increases the chances of a Building, such as a Granary, surviving recapture.
Of course, it would be our dumb luck that Confucianism got founded in our Oracle City, so we might have to pick a different City to gift, but the idea remains the same... combining a bunch of Espionage bonuses to get a monopoly tech for a low price:
20% Trade Route bonus (as long as we're not at war, The Great Lighthouse should ensure that we'll have a Trade Route with said City)
40% State Religion bonus (since Willem will be Hindu and we can be Confucian)
a decently-sized City Culture bonus
a low Distance penalty
50% Stationary Spy bonus, as we can plant a couple of Spies in place in advance of gifting away the City... in fact, even a Spy or two could be whipped from the City itself before gifting the City away
Now, this idea, of course, combines with the idea of moving Willem's capital by giving him a nearby City, watching his Workers and Archers rush toward that City, then going after his capital with our army (I know, we'll need an army and a couple of Galleys), taking his capital, and moving his capital to be near our core so that we can gift him Workers after the war, then recapture his new capital from him (optionally giving him another City first so that he can still stay alive), so that we can get whatever remaining hints we didn't get from spending Gold... say, we only spend Gold on 6 hints (#1 and #2 per AI) and we want to know what the third hint is for each AI and, while we're at it, find out where Isabella and Catherine are located, since the main "cost" is just the Worker turns invested in moving our Workers and not using them for a few turns.
Of course, stealing a tech before the war is best, otherwise we'll lose out on the 20% Trade Route bonus, but if Willem gets a tech partway through the war, stealing it would also be an option... or, just wait for Peace and then gift him another City post-war that has Spies already sitting in said City.
Then, though, we might only get 25% instead of 40% for our State Religion bonus, assuming that he switches to Confucianism, but it'll still be a pretty solid discount.
Sure, war success can also net you a tech, but with Willem having a small empire of 1 City (EDIT: now, barely 2 Cities), it's going to be pretty hard to accumulate enough war success to get much of use out of him.
No Vassals
Another thing that I tested... when Vassals are disabled, Colonies are disabled, too. That fact means that Colony Maintenance is also disabled. So, there is no steep penalty for keeping 3 or more Cities on another landmass.
That fact bodes well for eventually annexing Elizabeth's empire, after we've won her heart (and then her lands).
Earlier, we were discussing which tech to go for, and I tried to make a case for our currently-chosen tech. People seemed to accept the reasoning, but there is one more key factor that may be related, if we're lucky in being the first player to research Code of Laws and thereby found a Religion.
Let's imagine for an instant that one of our neighbours has teched a tech, such as Feudalism (Willem) or Philosophy (Elizabeth). Well, what can we do to get that tech?
One option is to send, say, a Galley with 2 Settlers and found Cities close to Elizabeth, then immediately Liberate 2 Cities to her, getting +3 Attitude with her to get her up to Friendly status. That's actually not too bad of an idea, if we can spare the production, as then we'll get her tech in exchange for Hammers, and we'll get some good Trade Routes and she can improve the Cities for us.
What about for Willem? Well, we want to relocate his capital anyway. Take a hint from the following screenshot, to see what I'm thinking about:
Spoiler :
Yes, that's right... if we manage to found Confucianism, we'll possess a Holy City.
If you are running a State Religion where you own the Holy City, then you can get either a 25% or 40% discount on stealing a tech.
The 25% comes in if the AI is running your State Religion, while the 40% comes in if the AI is running a different State Religion.
Also, if we gift a City with a World Wonder in it, the AI does not get that Wonder's Culture (I just checked), but we will get that Culture per turn again upon capturing that City (again, I just checked).
So, if we gave away The Oracle City, while we'd lose our accumulated GPP, Willem would only earn 2 Culture per turn in a City where we'd already amassed more Culture due to getting 10 Culture per turn (2 from Creative and 8 from The Oracle), so we would have the Cultural advantage in that City for quite some time.
Having a Cultural advantage gives you yet another discount on Espionage missions.
Further, a Cultural advantage reduces or removes the City Revolt period upon recapture and also increases the chances of a Building, such as a Granary, surviving recapture.
Of course, it would be our dumb luck that Confucianism got founded in our Oracle City, so we might have to pick a different City to gift, but the idea remains the same... combining a bunch of Espionage bonuses to get a monopoly tech for a low price:
20% Trade Route bonus (as long as we're not at war, The Great Lighthouse should ensure that we'll have a Trade Route with said City)
40% State Religion bonus (since Willem will be Hindu and we can be Confucian)
a decently-sized City Culture bonus
a low Distance penalty
50% Stationary Spy bonus, as we can plant a couple of Spies in place in advance of gifting away the City... in fact, even a Spy or two could be whipped from the City itself before gifting the City away
Now, this idea, of course, combines with the idea of moving Willem's capital by giving him a nearby City, watching his Workers and Archers rush toward that City, then going after his capital with our army (I know, we'll need an army and a couple of Galleys), taking his capital, and moving his capital to be near our core so that we can gift him Workers after the war, then recapture his new capital from him (optionally giving him another City first so that he can still stay alive), so that we can get whatever remaining hints we didn't get from spending Gold... say, we only spend Gold on 6 hints (#1 and #2 per AI) and we want to know what the third hint is for each AI and, while we're at it, find out where Isabella and Catherine are located, since the main "cost" is just the Worker turns invested in moving our Workers and not using them for a few turns.
Of course, stealing a tech before the war is best, otherwise we'll lose out on the 20% Trade Route bonus, but if Willem gets a tech partway through the war, stealing it would also be an option... or, just wait for Peace and then gift him another City post-war that has Spies already sitting in said City.
Then, though, we might only get 25% instead of 40% for our State Religion bonus, assuming that he switches to Confucianism, but it'll still be a pretty solid discount.
Sure, war success can also net you a tech, but with Willem having a small empire of 1 City (EDIT: now, barely 2 Cities), it's going to be pretty hard to accumulate enough war success to get much of use out of him.
No Vassals
Another thing that I tested... when Vassals are disabled, Colonies are disabled, too. That fact means that Colony Maintenance is also disabled. So, there is no steep penalty for keeping 3 or more Cities on another landmass.
That fact bodes well for eventually annexing Elizabeth's empire, after we've won her heart (and then her lands).
Dhoomstriker
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Can you please explain what you mean here?
EDIT: Perhaps you mean a Trade Network (an icon with 3 triangles) that allows for us to trade Resources with an AI? Yes, I just opened up the saved game and that's what you must have meant, as I see that we have the ability to trade Resources with both Shaka and Isabella.
Unless you have revealed one of Isabella's Coastal Cities, we will not get Trade Routes with her by Opening Borders with her... all that we would accomplish is giving her Foreign Trade Routes... and, since she didn't have Writing before now, had only met Shaka, and hadn't Opened Borders with him, she probably has only had Domestic Trade Routes to date.
Comments from the Real Game
Once again, an excellently-played mini-turnset!
The micro is accurate, with the only difference being that we are ahead by 5 Flasks in the real game (meaning that we are likely to found Code of Laws 1 turn early... and thus, we'll need to remember not to switch to Confucianism when the game asks us to switch).
Open Borders with Shaka on T66
As you say, since we have a route (a Trade Network) to Shaka, we can Open Borders with Shaka next turn (T66) to reap the full benefits of The Great Lighthouse for 10 turns, even though Shaka is still Elizabeth's Worst Enemy.
Gifting Monotheism to Willem
Now the question becomes... should we gift Monotheism to Willem? The sooner that he gets Monarchy, the sooner that we can get Monarchy from Willem for Code of Laws. Also, the sooner that Willem will start research on his next tech for us, too.
Well, he'll likely revolt into Organized Religion, but the 20% bonus to research will probably speed up his 11 turns of research remaining even with 1 turn of Anarchy thrown in there.
Besides, him being in Organized Religion can lead him to building more Buildings for us (an Aqueduct, perhaps?) in place of more Military units, due to him getting a discount on Buildings possibly encouraging him to build more of them.
So, I think that we'll benefit by gifting him Monotheism now.
It's interesting that no AI has Demanded a tech from us yet. I'm glad that Shaka hasn't, as the longer that he doesn't know any of Mysticism, Writing, or Masonry, and also doesn't get a Religion within his Cultural Borders, the easier his Cities will be to capture.
Shaka and Elizabeth are still Religionless.
Is there anything that our Galley can be doing for now? Probably not, since our Worker actions are all planned out and we'll need to stick around to shuttle Settler 5 on T72.
Next turn, our Work Boat might as well enter Bulawayo to see a bit further inland.
Also, on future turns of exploration, try to be as thorough as possible, so that we explore any Coast square which can reveal hidden squares. We don't want to miss an island due to being too hasty with our exploring Work Boat.
A Combat II Axeman from Shaka isn't very nice-looking, although at least his Archer has no Promotions on it. It is a Hills-based City, but at least he had the decency to settle on a PH square instead of on a GH square.
Do you feel that the Barb Rush is happening now? If the Barbs keep coming our way, then we'll probably want to finish off Archer 1 instead of starting on Worker 4 on T67. In that way, Warrior 2 and Archer 1 would defend Surfin' Turf for us.
On T66, if the Barbs really seem to be rushing us, we can switch the G Cow to the GH Mine, finishing off Archer 1 at the end of T67, which would allow us to put Hammers into Archer 2 on T68, in case we want to whip Archer 2 on T69.
Willem and Shaka have Opened Borders with each other. Actually, they had already done so back in the T58, 1680 BC saved game, but I don't recall anyone noticing that fact earlier. They had not Opened Borders with each other as of T56, 1760 BC, so it either happened at the end of our T56 or at the end of our T57.
None of the AIs appear to have learned any techs over the last 3 turns, except for the techs that we sold to Isabella.
Testing
The Gems gift to Elizabeth is cancellable.
The Crab gift and the Gems gift to Willem are both cancellable next turn.
However, they don't have any Resources to offer to us.
EDIT: This myth has been busted! I cancelled the 2 Resource gifts to Willem, waited 1 turn, then regifted those 2 Resources plus a 3rd Resource. I also tried the same scenario but instead of cancelling any Resource gifts, I simply gifted him the 3rd Resource right away. There was only the expected 1-turn difference between obtaining the +1 "We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources" Diplo bonus. It's possible that during that 1 turn, the counter decayed by 1, but the counter did NOT reset to 0.
Basically, you can gift 1 Resource for 50 turns, 2 Resources for 25 turns, 5 Resources for 10 turns, etc, and get +1 Attitude for having Shared a Resource with an AI.
EDIT: This myth has also been busted! You can get to +2 "We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources" with just 1 Resource, but it will take a very long time... or, you can do what I did and use multiple Resources until the last couple of turns at +1 and then only use 1 Resource and you'll still get topped up to +2 after waiting a few more turns than you would have needed to wait when gifting 3 Resources at a time. So, the end result is that we can freely renegotiate our Resource trades without fear of losing "credit" toward the Diplo bonuses, and we don't even have to give away more than 1 Resource to any AI to eventually earn up to +2 Attitude bonus with an AI.
Elizabeth's Work Boat has moved inside of Surfin' Turf.
Our percentage of World Population has gone from:
T62, 1520 BC
9.71% with City Sizes 4, 3, 2, 1 (a total of 10 population points)
Isabella had 11% of the World Population
to:
T65, 1400 BC
11.02% with City Sizes 5, 4, 3, 1 (a total of 13 population points)
Isabella still has 11% of the World Population
You have to love those Granaries!
However, our Population value still pales in comparison to that of our Rival Best's:
T62, 1520 BC
Our Population = 76 k
Rival Best Population = 403 k
T65, 1400 BC
Our Population = 160 k
Rival Best Population = 430 k
I'm not quite sure how that number is calculated, but I have a feeling that larger-sized Cities are more highly weighted.
In terms of TOP 5 CITIES:
Madrid is still at Size 8
Amsterdam regrew from Size 5 to Size 6
London grew from Size 5 to Size 7 and stole 3rd place
The Great Wall City stayed at Size 7 and dropped to 4th place
A Size 6 City is now 5th instead of a Size 5 City (which may or may not be the same City)
Our GNP has climbed, but so has that of our Rival Best:
T62, 1520 BC
Our GNP = 63
Rival Best GNP = 54
T65, 1400 BC
Our GNP = 79
Rival Best GNP = 64
Willem's Amsterdam just completed a build item
Elizabeth's York has 31 Hammers in a build item
Shaka's Bulawayo has 2 Hammers in a build item
Dhoomstriker
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I am afraid that you are a victim of my World-Buildering. I am sorry about that.
If you open up the World Builder, you will see that Willem has Roads leading to Sury. I placed most of those Roads there. In the real game, their empires are not likely to be connected to each other by Roads.
Anyway, it doesn't matter for Shaka, as we have mapped a Coastal route to his City.
What would have to exist is a Road network between Shaka and Isabella.
Roads "cheat" the system by allowing you to get connections even if you haven't revealed the squares that contain the Roads.
We don't see London, but we have a Trade Route to that City, and Elizabeth has Roads leading toward the only spot where London could exist (to the north and a bit west of York, where I placed Isabella's "London Test" in the test game) based on the Cultural Borders that we see.
EDIT: Attached is your saved game with these changes:
1. Grassland squares connecting Sury's area to Cathy's area (the test game's Cathy is the real game's Isabella, while the test game's Isabella is the real game's Elizabeth. Confused, yet?
)2. Cathy had a Work Boat placed on every Coastal square between her Coastal City and our Gems City
3. I Opened Borders with Cathy
4. I ended the turn (so, many of the Work Boats got booted out of various Cultural Borders)
We still don't have Trade Routes with Cathy even though we have a Trade Network with her (you can confirm that on the F4 RESOURCES screen).
5. I gave ourselves a Great Spy in Moscow and performed an Infiltrate mission
Cathy has a Trade Route with Athens (our capital), but we don't have any Trade Routes with her.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,457
If Shaka is coming our way, that'll be great. Free experience points for us. We have enough Roads to save ourselves in such a case.
An Archer can cover our western-most Gems Mine and other Archers can either be inside of Surfin' Turf or can be on a Hills square to the west of there. There is no need to pre-build these Archers, though.
We have plenty of population and a strong enough Road network to not need to go into panic mode until after he shows up with a stack, and then we will still have enough time to deal with him. Unlike the AIs, we don't need to be stupid and wait until an enemy stack has entered our Cultural Borders, buying us an extra turn or two to prepare, which is all that we would need, really.
EDIT: In the test game, Sury came up to our borders with a stack of Impis and Chariots on T99. Yet, with just 1 Archer, 1 Galley, and 3 Work Boats in City 3 (I was just clicking build items at random), he walked away from attacking... then, his army wandered back and forth for 10 turns before I decided to stop ending the turns, since it didn't look like he would build up the courage to attack us.
Odeons
Our Unique Building gets unlocked with Construction.
Colosseum:
80 Hammers for +1 Happiness, +1 Happiness per 20% Cultural rate, +100% production for Creative Leaders
Odeon:
80 Hammers for +2 Happiness, +1 Happiness per 20% Cultural rate, +100% production for Creative Leaders, +3 Culture, Can hire 2 Artist Specialists, +1 from Hit Singles
It's pretty hard to say "no" to +2 Happiness for 40 Hammers (or less than 40 Hammers with Organized Religion).
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,457
Here's a version of the test game that hasn't been fully updated, as I didn't bother to update the AIs' techs, nor the terrain.
I believe that I did manage to get the total Flasks right, although it's hard to tell just how many Trade Routes we'll get with Shaka when Opening Borders with him on T66 and whether or not Sury's current setup reflects that number accurately.
In this version of the test game, I added the extra AI Cites and some more Barb units and we got rushed by the Barbs.
Hopefully, we won't face this situation in the real game, but I get suspicious whenever more than 1 Barb unit shows up in a direction that appears to be angling toward us, so, better safe than sorry.
Anyway, if I did things right, this test game will allow you to play around with a Barb Rush.
In the real game, we'll want to remember gift Monotheism to Willem on T65, but I didn't bother setting up the techs.
I didn't perform any micro on the start of T66.
I would love it if we were able to get an Archer promoted up to Guerilla II, so that we could later use him to steal Workers from the AIs, but we can also just try to create one of those later after building a Barracks somewhere.
I believe that I did manage to get the total Flasks right, although it's hard to tell just how many Trade Routes we'll get with Shaka when Opening Borders with him on T66 and whether or not Sury's current setup reflects that number accurately.
In this version of the test game, I added the extra AI Cites and some more Barb units and we got rushed by the Barbs.
Hopefully, we won't face this situation in the real game, but I get suspicious whenever more than 1 Barb unit shows up in a direction that appears to be angling toward us, so, better safe than sorry.
Anyway, if I did things right, this test game will allow you to play around with a Barb Rush.
In the real game, we'll want to remember gift Monotheism to Willem on T65, but I didn't bother setting up the techs.
I didn't perform any micro on the start of T66.
I would love it if we were able to get an Archer promoted up to Guerilla II, so that we could later use him to steal Workers from the AIs, but we can also just try to create one of those later after building a Barracks somewhere.
I'm ready if you are.
Best of luck!
Best of luck!
Green light.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,457
Green from me, too.
turn 65
Gifted Monotheism to William.
turn 66
Warrior is flanked by barb warrior and archer. Move to NW to hopew warrior attacks over river.
Open borders with Shaka.
Elizabeth is now the worst enemy of Shaka. At +3 cautious.
turn 67
barb warrior dies as they storm over the river. Finished Archer one turn early and moves out to fight the barb archer on the hill.
turn 68
Barb archer dies as they storm our archers in the hilsl outside of Surfin'Turf
turn 69
Confucianism has been founded in Gems. It has also spread to X-opolis.
For some reason the asrcher has left the Zulu capital.
The oracle is ours.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1240_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Gifted Monotheism to William.
turn 66
Warrior is flanked by barb warrior and archer. Move to NW to hopew warrior attacks over river.
Open borders with Shaka.
Elizabeth is now the worst enemy of Shaka. At +3 cautious.
turn 67
barb warrior dies as they storm over the river. Finished Archer one turn early and moves out to fight the barb archer on the hill.
turn 68
Barb archer dies as they storm our archers in the hilsl outside of Surfin'Turf
turn 69
Confucianism has been founded in Gems. It has also spread to X-opolis.
For some reason the asrcher has left the Zulu capital.
The oracle is ours.
Spoiler :
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG021_BC1240_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
