SGOTM 23 - Phoenix Rising

elitetroops · Jul 29, 2016

Forum super slow for me today. Takes a couple of minutes to load any page, has been like this several hours already. If it works for you, feel free to play, but it's impossible for me to follow the game if while the forum loads this slowly.

Gumbolt · Jul 29, 2016

Yes very slow here. I need to start formulating a plan but i am fast running out of time. Also have food in the oven that needs eating. Super tired too. Not good. :lol:

Keep Mao war going. Mehmed does not really like us. Too much risk.

Ask KK to target Yekaterinburg.
40G for cal from Churchill.
70g from Persians for Mono. If not we could try to beg?
10g from JoaoII for mono. Grab his gold before war.
Demand 30g from Indians??
20G from Sal for mono?
Beg 20 from KK? Or wait a turn?
Science towards Guilds. 100% science or 100% tax.

Do we pillage road 3S of Moscow. My gut is hold for now. We would have to pillage mine first? Would stop chariot attacks.

Rostov has no granary! Do we still want to whip worker without a granary? Not fond of this.

MOM plan. Need to check worker moves. T6 grow onto farm. Or do we need the engineer? I'll try to match numbers below.

Spoiler :

It seems to me for MOM we are choping 3x forest on T105 and the rest on T107.
For me Elizabeth 1W. Chop next turn 1N and chop on t107.
Sal chopx2. 1W and chop again t107.
Gandhi. 2x chop.1W and farm. 1sw/1S and chop on T107.
This would be my micro for this. Differs to what Bic suggested. He had a road in his plan.

Athens forge/MS. Grow on sea food over mines once final crab settled. Growth is key. No whipping here.
Do we want to convert mines to windmills here?? Or do we opt to chop forests outside Gemmy/Furry?

Paris - Grab back 2 cottages and lose the engineer. I see no value in whipping here. We gain one happiness in 4 turns. We will gain gold and incense soon enough.

FF/SH and Wheatos whip mace.
FF into Forge.
Wheatos into forge.
SH into.... Another mace? we have 37of. So mace or treb would be nice. That or into a mish for Paris?
Memphis. Guess we double farm and then move to build windmills near Thebes? Really needs border pop.
Hamburg - Switch to forge and whip into barracks.
Munich - We want to grow Munich? Julius could help with the mine? Then we get mish sooner.
Jerusalem - Archer for alexandria - switch to worker Whip following turn. First archer for Thebes. Mish for Thebes.
Gemmy/Cologne on workboats. Gemmy workboat to Athens. Cologne to Gemmy.
Yarl - whip archer into worker. Again in dire need of a border pop.

What is plan for workers near Paris. We have 3. Do we want farms or workshops?
Alex could put a windmill on the grass hill?
Willem farm??
Do we want workshops near SH?

Plan of attack for JoaoII. I assume 2 mace on workboat and other 2 by land? Merge stack of 4 units with axe. Is this enough for Lisbon? I would like 1-2 Trebs before english. Even to help with Lisbon. Pends how soon we plan to attack. 2 trebs and 4 mace would be awesome. Waiting for that 2nd galley would be a pain.

Russia plan....

Notre Dame would be useful somewhere for 2 happiness. Not urgent now.
FP too once we have spare time for court houses.

Updating!

Going to stop there for now. Need thoughts on Russia and general worker use. 2 units NE to view Novograd. We have one unit that needs a promo and a HA to dump on the forest near Cologne. Beyond that heal and see what opportunities we get. We have 2 HA heading towards Russia from Paris area.

Running low on time today. I suggest you all need to view save to make sure our current plans really match what the game is showing us.

Rusten · Jul 29, 2016

Yes to Mao/Mehmed war.

10g from JoaoII for mono. Grab his gold before war.
Demand 30g from Indians??
20G from Sal for mono?
Beg 20 from KK? Or wait a turn?

I think wait a turn or two before trading with Joao. Hopefully at least 20 gold for mono next turn.
Indians: Maybe try to avoid more -diplo. We need his ivory. Would he keep trading it if we are worst enemy?
KK: We can wait for at least 30 or 40 gold I think. We won't attack him at any point so we're not on a timer in regards to peace treaty.
I think we should get some more for Mono from Sal too.

Rostov has no granary! Do we still want to whip worker without a granary? Not fond of this.

I knew it!! I think worker whip is still best. We can use the worker (and Isabella, assuming she's not helping out with MoM construction) to chop the granary at size 2. Xbow is definitely not a good idea anymore though. If we're still getting the granary "in time" for size 2 then the worker first is superior. More worker turns available.

FF/SH and Wheatos whip mace. Yes
FF into Forge.
Wheatos into forge. As we're going caste soon then forge in these cities is not the best investment. They won't have workshops ready to become production cities. I think it might be better to keep whipping units and keep the war effort going instead. A forge would be wasted if all we're doing is running farms in caste. As we're lacking worker turns I think we should first workshop the area around SH and then FF after. Delay Wheatos. By that logic we can consider a forge in FF, but I don't think we should get one in Wheatos.
SH into.... Another mace? we have 37of. So mace or treb would be nice. That or into a mish for Paris?I think overflow into missionary is best.
Memphis. Guess we double farm and then move to build windmills near Thebes? Really needs border pop.Double up yes. Still 3 turns to decide next course of action. I think we want another farm before making windmills though. Border pop will come with caste.
Hamburg - Switch to forge and whip into barracks.If we're making this a military city, then yes. Part of me is considering making this a science (specialists) city, but maybe we need the units and we've already committed 17 hammers into barracks.
Munich - We want to grow Munich? Julius could help with the mine? Then we get mish sooner.Yes to both. I think we should double up on mine and the double up on watermill or farm after. This is assuming these workers aren't used for MoM. If yes, then watermills after MoM.
Note: Watermills are strong during GAs. I think we might want them over farm+workshop. We are getting Rep. Parts this game too, so they will grow in strength later.
Jerusalem - Archer for alexandria - switch to worker Whip following turn. First archer for Thebes. Mish for Thebes.Makes sense.
Gemmy/Cologne on workboats. Gemmy workboat to Athens. Cologne to Gemmy.
Yarl - whip archer into worker. Again in dire need of a border pop.Border pop with caste. Yes to whip archer -> whip worker (then another worker)

What is plan for workers near Paris. We have 3. Do we want farms or workshops?
Alex could put a windmill on the grass hill?
Willem farm??
Do we want workshops near SH?

No more farms in this region. We want workshops now. They have enough food to grow.
Yes to Paris windmill by Alex.
IMO Willem should make a windmill 1E of FF first, and then workshop the flatlands.

Munich/Hamburg: These cities should've been reversed TBH. Would've been better to make Hamburg the library city (specialists) as it has less tiles available but a higher food surplus and Munich the military city (with lots of watermills/workshops available. Is it still worth changing this around? It's so awkward to improve tiles near Munich, because we want to work the river, but at the same time we have so much food already. And getting workshops when we want science doesn't make the most sense. Cottages make even less sense now.

That's the domestic city stuff (minus MoM completion -- IDK anything about that). I'll look at the Russian situation next in a second post. Others are more qualified though, I think.

edit: Tired now -- going to sleep. I'll look at the rest in the afternoon.

Gumbolt · Jul 29, 2016

I will edit this up in the morning? What balance of military do we want?? Mainly mace for Portugal or mix of trebs too?

Don't under estimate your advice on this game Rusten. You have called a lot of decision well this game. We all need to have a bit more confidence here. As a team we are coming up with good decisions. E.g. Not giving up on the Moscow attack was a big decision that worked out well. Could of gone either way. Going for Egyptians first too.

I will edit up plan when I wake up and look more at other things. We only need 3 workers for MOM and all 3 are in and around Berlin on the forests required.

The scout needs to head to Mongol land soon. Not sure the value of scouting China now. I want to see what Mongols are up to. Shanghai only has 1 defender. Wow! We are really over estimating the Ai here. Not even sure Lisbon has a city wall. So quick bombardment.

Still think 4 mace and 2 trebs for Lisbon. 1 treb and mace by boat. The other 4 by land if galley does not reach there in time. So look to put OF in cities into these builds. We could still use HA for OF into larger builds.

Are we happy for windmills around Athens?? Am I missing something about windmills here?? Plain hill with windmill will be 1F2H and 1C. With golden age. 1f3h2c. (Not built a windmill yet on civ 4. ) Grass hills. 2f 2h 1c.

Oh we need to build that camp near Cologne again at some point.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

Yes to Mao/Mehmed war.
Delay trade for gold with sal, KK and JoaoII.
Ask KK to target Yekaterinburg.
40G for cal from Churchill.
70g from Persians for Mono. If not we could try to beg?

Scout- Towards KK.
Workboat in far east continue trip round land. Disband?
Mish to Thebes this turn.
Archer to Alexandria
Follow up archer to Thebes. should time better.
Galley 3 head west.
Galley 2 in place for English
Axe towards paris to merge with mace stack.

Paris - Run cottages and lose specialists. Ensure were working the biggest cottages. Slow build market.
FF - Whip Mace - forge. Grab fur.
SH- Whip mace - Xtian mish - treb.
Wheatos - whip mace - Mace.
Gemmy - Workboat Gemmy workboat to Athens.
Cologne - Workboat Cologne to Gemmy.

Berlin - MOM - T6 grow onto farm.

Spoiler :

Alexandrai court house- run 2 scientists. (Keep top 5 city if possible.)
Thebes - Forge and Colossus.
Jerusalem - Archer for alexandria - switch to worker Whip following. First archer for Thebes.
Memphis - Granary.
Munich - slow build xtian mish for st Peters. - Forge.
Hamburg -Switch to LH. Chop. Library. remove barracks from queue.
Athen - Forge - Focus on growth. Grow onto 3f crab.
Yarl - whip archer and whip worker. Then worker again. Or do we grow for Forge using a chop?
Rostov - Worker Whip worker at S2.
St Peters/Moscow - revolt.

Workers -
Mansa /Zara - Double up farm near Memphis.
Gilga focus on windmills near Jerusalem.
Gandhi/Sal Elizabeth as MOM plan.
Nap/Julius - mine iron -
Alex- Windmill on grass hill
Willem windmill 1E of FF. Then workshops.
Isabella chop into worker once archer complete.

Pericles and Churchill. Maybe split. Double chop forest near Gemmy. Then both head to camp.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

So Russian plan.
HA9 2NE.
Then protect sending HA 23 to double up.
Promote HA 30. Shock?

HA 13/19/28 stay in mini stack to protect against Russians wondering units.

HA17 is this to protect against chariots? Could move him 2E. We will have an archer next turn. 2E should allow us to see that forest tile first too.

We will have to see what happens following turn and what defences Novograd actually has. Ideally we would want all 10HA for this attack which will likely be across the river. Let's see if the axe and sword do something silly.

Still a risk from chariots near Moscow once mini stack of 3 HA move. To pillage this turn or to leave. Hmmmm.

If we do move on Novograd we will need 3 stacks to block all roads to Moscow.

We have 2 backup HA on way and also a whipped HA in Berlin soon too.

elitetroops · Jul 30, 2016

Gilgamesh worker: You mean windmills?

I'm not sure about sending 2 HAs 2NE of Moscow. I think he is more likely to attempt a counter attack if there is only one. It looks like he cannot reach it from Novgorod, but you never know if he has some wandering spear coming in from Yeka that could attack across the river. This would be way better than the spear moving into Novgorod.

Smolensk had no chariot when we last saw it and is pop 1. Unlikely to build one.

Asian workboat continues scouting. Head south towards Indonesian islands. Once we attack China this workboat can be useful for intel as well.

Which galley is heading south? Can't see game now. Galley from Russia should move west, reveal London defenses the turn our maces are out before we move maces in any direction. We might still decide to attack London first if we see something ridiculous. Western galley should move in position for English invasion, if we decide to do that. Galley not needed for war in Portugal.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

The idea was to see Novograd defences. if we want to take Novograd we will need to leave Moscow at some point. If we just take a ceasefire we should pillage the horse and a cow to distract his workers. Edit. We could wait till stack is fully healed? Then explore defences once were ready.

Yes I mean't windmills.

Thoughts on FF forge vs units?

Hamburg switch to library and specialist city? Too late?

Galley near Athens will head 2NW.
If we don't need galleys for Portugal the galley can move north towards English pending on defences.

Athens workers Pericles and Churchill. Windmill on plains hill by river. Double up for now.

Edit - I think the mongols have no metals? Do we help them with construction? Might help them damage Russians?

FF Forge - Would enable 2 pop mace. Main issue is we would be in caste sooner than later. Albeit with windmills and workshops it could pay off. 2-3 quick whips could get us 2 mace and treb.

Rusten · Jul 30, 2016

Windmills near Athens is not first priority. Moai coast tiles will have better yields. We might have more pressing needs. It has enough tiles with Moai until size 12. I'd send the workers elsewhere. Churchill can chop or Gemmy and Pericles can help Cologne.
Also, I think Athens should get an archer before we start on the forge. It will grow quickly and really needs a unit.

I think I'm going to insist that we make Munich a production city -- nothing else makes much sense in regards to tiles available. The question is whether we also make Hamburg a science city (IMO, yes, but I'm more torn here). We've invested into a library in Munich, but it's not completely wasted even if there won't be scientists. Every river workshop/watermill will still give 2 commerce and it did provide the border pop. We might work some coast as well.

Hamburg: IMO chop lighthouse --> library. Remove barracks from queue. Grow to max size using the few available tiles (and then colossus coast) and run caste specialists when maxed (in happy/health).
Hamburg would only work as a military city if it was relying on whipping given its tiles, but that time has passed with the better tile yields and higher happy/health cap (and golden ages). Cities like Munich should do it now.

Russian war: Give me 1-2 hours. I'll need a closer look at the save.

Forge in FF can still be good. If we give it the furs tile it will have 8 base hammers during GA even before workshops. And Willem can workshop the two remaining tiles. It could also use the happiness.
Wheatos, OTOH, should not get a forge.

Far east work boat could be useful in Indonesia/Australia to scout for island cities. Would make it easier to plan taking them out later. IMO send it there. (Just saw that ET suggested the same)

edit: An alternative is to give Yaroslavl' the Hamburg sheep. In that case the food surplus is not so overwhelming and it makes more sense to make it (referring to Hamburg!) a production city. We want more ambitious plans for Yaroslavl' in that case though, and not just a 4-2 whip worker pump.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

Well whatever we do we need to keep the military rolling. With caste best way for this is to chop units. We won't have slavery during first 6-7 turns of golden age.

We need to have a plan and stick to it. Hamburg does have 3 great food resources. So a LH is still a good build +1f. As previously stated we lack workers to do everything here. So having some cities to grow onto specialists is not a bad plan as long as we have 6-7 good military pumps.

The big issue with Hamburg is it lacks natural hammers. we lack the workforce to build lots of workshops and windmills.

Yarl with 3 food resources could match Hamburg so I see your logic here. It would be taking one from St Petersburg? This city already has 4 food resources.

So would we build the archer and worker elsewhere?? We could chop them in and around other cities. Were not doing great at stealing Russian workers.

Rusten · Jul 30, 2016

Well whatever we do we need to keep the military rolling. With caste best way for this is to chop units. We won't have slavery during first 6-7 turns of golden age.

Golden Age workshops are going to provide a lot of production. More so than slavery did in the past. The bonus is that we can grow our cities while doing it.
Once we start the GA we don't really want to go back to slavery, that's why the workers are so important (workshops for production). With such green and fertile land we don't want to whip away tiles anymore -- especially not during GAs.

As we're not properly set up some cycles of slavery might be necessary, though.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

So we use the principle of making a few cities great while other assist in empire needs. So Munich production.

Yarl uses it's 4-5 forest to chop into workers? In any case it still needs that archer. With Sheep Yarl would grow in 3 turns. Size 6 with sheep and opt to whip forge with a chop? 3 pop whip before GA. We might have to whip worker elsewhere?

We have percicles and Churchill who could head north if needed?

The archer build assumed we were moving on Novograd.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

What we could do. During caste set up a few cities to grow but invest hammers in treb/mace and knights ready to whip in quick succession if needed? Then you could have bursts of 5 turn slavery in cities which lacks hammers.

Rusten · Jul 30, 2016

What we could do. During caste set up a few cities to grow but invest hammers in treb/mace and knights ready to whip in quick succession if needed? Then you could have bursts of 5 turn slavery in cities which lacks hammers.

This is a good idea for cities like Wheatos etc. We can at least set up a mace+HA double whip combo.

Remember to put "no growth" in SH for 1 turn.
It's very important that you take care of Alexandria. We need the GP in time for when MoM is complete. What turn do we need to whip courthouse again (for spy specialist)? I was away during the calculations, not sure where to find it. [too lazy to count if I don't have to

]

Russia:
Smolensk is size 2 now, btw. So Stalin could whip a chariot/unit this turn.
Shock for promo sounds OK.

HA17 is this to protect against chariots? Could move him 2E. We will have an archer next turn. 2E should allow us to see that forest tile first too.

Moving this HA 2E1S means that it can help out with taking Novgorod in 2T (if we scout few troops and decide to attack across river). We will lose vision, but after moving east we will have seen all the nearby tiles. Is this worth the risk? (Is this even a risk?) Stalin could in theory get a unit there from the north in some turns without us noticing.

HA 26 is being dropped off on deer by Cologne this turn? Or is it staying where it is to cover both Jerusalem and Cologne?

Don't really have anything big to suggest. First turn is mainly wait and see. I agree with ET that we should only move 1 HA 2NE of Moscow.

Remember that a chariot can go from Novgorod to Moscow in 1T. So if he has a chariot in garrison when we scout it we need at least 1 HA to stay behind in Moscow.

In general just play it safe. Losing Moscow (or St Pete) to a stray unit would suck big time. I don't think we'll need all 10 HAs to take Novgorod.

Portugal: Indeed no galleys are needed. Send these towards England. We need these galleys to take out Vladivostok soon too. It's a great city.

BornInCantaloup · Jul 30, 2016

Portugal :
There is no need to use galleys on the attack.
I'd have used the bare 4x Maces against Lisbon but :
a) it's only really 3, since the GG Axe is late by 1 turn compared with the other units (need to upgrade to Mace) ;
--> 3 Maces invade on t105 and upgraded Axe follows on t106
b) Treb lowers the chances we suffer casualties.

Remember we have >80% chances against Archers in Lisbon (88%, iirc).
Still, if we want to minimize our casualties (a fair concern), then we should probably NOT go Mace into Treb but rather Treb into Mace.
--> Wheatos switches to Treb this turn and 3pop whips next turn ;
--> We can still invade on t105 with 2x Mace, 1x Treb, 1x Axe
In such a configuration, splitting xp from the gg becomes a little awkward. We're likely attacking Lisbon with 3xp units.

Well, we still could get 3x CR3 units and promote the Trebuchet to Bombard + Movement. Not sure it's very appealing, although I can understand the concern to avoid losing any CR3 Mace.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

Sorry I went for to sleep for a bit. Long night ahead.

You say whip Alexandria. I thought we decided against this? Looking at the numbers we would need to. As currently with 2 scientists it takes 5.28 turns. At present set for t109. Were 6GPP points short here. So we would need to whip in 2 turns. Then run 3 specialists. If we do whip Alexandria falls out of top 5 cities. Hmmm.

The HA 2 NE is at risk if a spear attacks it. We might as well just move all 10 out following turn and see if we can take the city.

So we need more thought on Portugal. I thoight the plan ws to use a GG on 4 mace to get 4CR3 mace. I suggested trebs as we will want some of these for England. Also it didn't seem a bad idea for Portugal. If we send in the 3 mace before the axe they will only be CR1. Have I missed something here??

So T103 axe moves into Paris.
T104 3 mace and axe merge in Wheatos. with GG. Use the GG on all 4 units.We may have to give the axe movement to allow it to upgrade on same turn. The warrior can leave wheatos and come back once the GG is attached.
T105 all 4 units could then declare on Portugal.

If we used a treb it could go CR3. 20xp divided by 4 units. Each 8xp. We have Char bonus remember.

So not sure what we decided on Hamburg and Varl in end. That also with Churchill and Periciles.

The HA I considered the deer as the 2 units appear to be heading for cologne. I could leave it on the galley?

Rusten · Jul 30, 2016

Gumbolt said:
Sorry I went for to sleep for a bit. Long night ahead.

You say whip Alexandria. I thought we decided against this? Looking at the numbers we would need to. As currently with 2 scientists it takes 5.28 turns. At present set for t109. Were 6GPP points short here. So we would need to whip in 2 turns. Then run 3 specialists. If we do whip Alexandria falls out of top 5 cities. Hmmm. We want the soonest possible GA. That's why we need to run a spy and also why we can't afford a 1T delay on MOM. They need to sync up (to the earliest turn possible).
In 3T we will whip a library in St Petersburg and it will fall off the top 5 list. Then something else after too.

The HA 2 NE is at risk if a spear attacks it. We might as well just move all 10 out following turn and see if we can take the city.Elite's point was that it's better if Stalin attacks it in the field than us attacking the unit in a city. We encourage him to attack the HA.

So we need more thought on Portugal. I thoight the plan ws to use a GG on 4 mace to get 4CR3 mace. I suggested trebs as we will want some of these for England. Also it didn't seem a bad idea for Portugal. If we send in the 3 mace before the axe they will only be CR1. Have I missed something here?? I too thought we were going 4 mace for Portugal (no treb), but I'm still trying to catch up on war plans.

So T103 axe moves into Paris.
T104 3 mace and axe merge in Wheatos. with GG. Use the GG on all 4 units.We may have to give the axe movement to allow it to upgrade on same turn. The warrior can leave wheatos and come back once the GG is attached.
T105 all 4 units could then declare on Portugal.

If we used a treb it could go CR3. 20xp divided by 4 units. Each 8xp. We have Char bonus remember.

So not sure what we decided on Hamburg and Varl in end. That also with Churchill and Periciles. Church+Per: Chop forest 2W of Gemmy together. Then one of them can move to FF/SH and the other can improve Cologne or they can both go to Cologne. Note: Probably best to put 1T into workshop 1N of Cologne fish and then improve deer. I think I prefer both going to Cologne to get the deer up and running right away.

Hamburg: IMO LH-library. Worker whips in Yaro.

The HA I considered the deer as the 2 units appear to be heading for cologne. I could leave it on the galley? I just worry about Jerusalem if the Russian units disappear into fog IBT. We'd need Jerusalem defense ready. Might be best to leave it in the galley.

In blue.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

Only issue with Portugal plan is we need to give axe extra MP promo to get it mace promo on t104. Otherwise delays war 1 turn.

Hamburg: IMO LH-library
Yarl Archer whip - worker whip? We still want to whip archer??

Churchill percicles sounds fine.

Rusten · Jul 30, 2016

Yarl Archer - worker whip? We still want to whip archer??

Yes. Whipping archer is fine.

Only issue with Portugal plan is we need to give axe extra MP promo to get it mace promo on t104. Otherwise delays war 1 turn.

If the other ones are CR3 then having one with extra movement is not such a bad thing.

Gumbolt · Jul 30, 2016

Okay green to play on. Is there anything I have not updated in plan?

We are heading to guilds now via feudalism?

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