[BTS] SGOTM 24 nostalgia

[sossos]

Here's my PPP (Pre Play Plan) for T76~T90

Target:

1. Complete the Great Lighthouse at T81
2. Complete the Pyramids at T91
3. Get Currency at T85 and Code of Laws at T91
4. Get the 2nd Great Scientist at T91 or T92
5. Found 3 new cities by T92. 2 for islands and 1 for pig.



Cities:
The capitol will go population 6 and build the Pyramids. Whip settler and overflow to the Pyramids.
PP(the 2nd city) will whip a settler who will go to the west island. Hire as many specialist as possible, as long as the happiness cap is reached.
MC(the 3rd city) will whip a worker out and overflow to the Great Lighthouse. The it will slowly build a settler for any potential island city.
CC(the 4th city) will whip a galley first then a settler for the pig city. Library may not be needed since we'll have cast system soon at T92.
The 3 fish city will whip a monument then 2 work boats. The first work boat will scout west or net a fish. The second workboat will scout north or net a fish.
The cattle city will build a monument first then whip a work boat to scout or net a fish.
The stone city will whip a monument and build a work boat.

Build research/wealth or the Pyramids as needed.


Units:

The scout will explore all territories and suicide
The work boat eastwards will continue explore toward northeast
One worker will road to cattle city(3 work turns) and camp the cattle(4 turns), and chop one tree (4 turns)
Two workers will mine a hill(4 work turns), chop 3 trees(12 work turns), road to Darius

Diplomacy:
Check possible trade opportunity for gold or trade deal. Any coins will be helpful.

Open issues for discussion:

1. I'd like to only have one more mine at 2E of Capitol. No mines at cattle city either. This can allow higher odds for tree growth. What's your opinion?
There're two Pros:
(1) Even in capitol we will turn some citizen to specialists. This makes mine not so useful.
(2) University of Sancre or Oxford University are not that important. We don't need too many mines to rush

2. I will plot a war soon after we have Civil Service. Construction should have higher priority than Paper.
There're two Pros:
(1) a galley between PP(the 2nd city) and the stone city can save the logistics cost and shorten the time to Persia. If our ship can get +1 movement, it only takes 5 turns from our capitol to Persia border.
(2) We can rally our soldiers at stone city, which is just two turns away from Persia.
(3) The worker has nothing to do now. They need more cities.

 

[sossos]

There's a new thought today.

How about settling marble as our 10th city? The benefits from Marble are:
1. We can have more benefits from Music line and Calendar.
(1) Music can provide a Great Artist which is equal to 50% of the second golden age and 33% of the third golden age
(2) Calendar and Mausoleum of Mausollos can give us 50% of golden age
(3) The Great Library can give us 8 free Great Person Points
(4) The Parthenon and National Epic is also helpful.
2. We can have a close city to build catapult for the war against Persia.
3. If we go religious victory, we can build The Hagia Sophia(double speed with marble) faster. Even if we go conquest or domination, we can also build it to help preserve forests faster.
4. Our workers have something to do now after expediting The Pyramids

 

[nanoprince]

The map comes to be much too ideal.
Let's take some time to think about Scientific Methods before 125T and Domination before 165T with global Green Economic and enough trees.

 

[sossos]

Here's the video for our testing purpose. Basically our goals can be met except 2:
1. The north island city will be founded at T93, 1 turn behind target.
2. Code of Laws should have been learned at T91. We may need to adjust the slider or beg some money from AIs.

Still a lot of micros to be improved which include:
1. The workboat at 3-fish city may be whipped earlier
2. The monument at cattle city and stone city may not be needed
3. Mine more hills since they can be pillaged later
4. Build wealth instead of research
5. Beg money
6. Scout to fog bust the potential barbarian city in Persian territory

 

[sossos]

The map comes to be much too ideal.
Let's take some time to think about Scientific Methods before 125T and Domination before 165T with global Green Economic and enough trees.

@nanoprince @flager @obeliskgolem

I will do another rough test for T90 to T130 this weekend. The live webcast is scheduled at Beijing time 9pm~12pm this Saturday and Sunday. Welcome all to give me inputs.

 

[sossos]

@nanoprince @flager @obeliskgolem

I'm thinking about the critical path. It's right the Cast System is the one. However, I don't think 1 turn difference of Code of Laws is equal to 1 turn difference of victory. The benefit from Cast System is also influenced by Pacifism, Population of the Specialist cities and overall economy of the Empire. The expansion is still important.
This means that
1, We still need to settle the two island cities, as they can bring a net gain of 13 gold even if there's no any fish resource, but we don't need to whip except the 2 settlers from Capitol for the Pyramids.
2, Lighthouse at the 4th city(CC) is still needed because it helps this city to have more specialists in the long run. We need this city to provide the 5th or the 6th Great Scientist.

 

[sossos]

@Team

Thank you for your advises and finally I hit almost all targets in this round.

Highlight:

1. Currency was researched at T85 and Code of Laws was researched at T89
2. The Great Light House was completed at T81 and The Pyramids was completed at T89
3. The west island city was founded at T88, the pig city at T90 and the north island city is to be founded at T93
4. Circumnnavigation was done at T87

Spoiler save and log :

The save can be downloaded from the link below
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=nostalgia_SG024_BC0625_01.CivBeyondSwordSave


And HOF mod logs
Turn 78, 925 BC: Snaketown has been founded.
Turn 78, 925 BC: You have trained a Galley in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 79, 900 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 79, 900 BC: You have trained a Settler in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 80, 875 BC: You have trained a Worker in Mound City. Work has now begun on The Great Lighthouse.

Turn 81, 850 BC: Spiro has been founded.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Sitting Bull has completed The Great Lighthouse!
Turn 81, 850 BC: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 85, 750 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 85, 750 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 86, 725 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 86, 725 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

Turn 87, 700 BC: The borders of Mesa Verde have expanded!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Julius Rosenberg (Great Spy) has been born in Persepolis (Darius I)!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your maps have proven that the world is round! Your ships receive a +1 Movement bonus.

Turn 88, 675 BC: Poverty Point has grown to size 6.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Poverty Point has become unhappy.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Chaco Canyon has grown to size 6.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Mound City are about to expand.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cahokia.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cahokia.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I is the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Mound City are about to expand.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Bismarck will trade Archery
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I will trade Archery
Turn 88, 675 BC: Gandhi will trade Archery, Iron Working
Turn 88, 675 BC: Bismarck will trade Sheep
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I will trade Cow, Horse
Turn 88, 675 BC: Stalin will trade Cow
Turn 88, 675 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Gandhi
Turn 88, 675 BC: Moundville has been founded.
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have trained a Settler in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Mound City have expanded!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 89, 650 BC: Cahokia can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 25 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Stalin has no worst enemy.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Gandhi will trade Monarchy
Turn 89, 650 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cahokia.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Poverty Point will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Spiro will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Mound City!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Sitting Bull has completed The Pyramids!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have constructed The Pyramids in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Confucianism has spread in Cahokia.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Mound City can no longer work on The Pyramids. The lost ℤ is converted into 4ℴ!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Chaco Canyon can no longer work on The Pyramids. The lost ℤ is converted into 48ℴ!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Bismarck adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 90, 625 BC: Cahokia can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 24 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Poverty Point has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Poverty Point can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 16ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 27 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Spiro has grown to size 2.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Spiro can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Nacogdoches has been founded.
Turn 90, 625 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Representation!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Caste System!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull's Dog Soldier 2 (Poverty Point) (4.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (0.58)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 90, 625 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull's Dog Soldier 2 (Poverty Point) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Your Dog Soldier 2 (Poverty Point) has destroyed a Archer!

 

[nanoprince]

well done!

Here let's consider a new option:
Tech-rushing Scientific Methods and meanwhile swallowing Persia.

That may postpone Scientific Methods by about 5 turns， be we may get enough compensation in more workers @ScientificMethod， more outside trees protected and higher total bottles. These compensations would well be worth of 5 turns.
So we may have Scientific Methods at about 130T which is 5T delayed, but then get the final success well before 165T, even earlier than the last plan.

In approximation，we may attack Persia with a small army of 13~15 horse anchers，2~4 chariots, 2~3 dog soldiers. I believe that this military scale may be enough for emperor AI of peaceful personality.

@Team

Thank you for your advises and finally I hit almost all targets in this round.

Highlight:

1. Currency was researched at T85 and Code of Laws was researched at T89
2. The Great Light House was completed at T81 and The Pyramids was completed at T89
3. The west island city was founded at T88, the pig city at T90 and the north island city is to be founded at T93
4. Circumnnavigation was done at T87

Spoiler save and log :

The save can be downloaded from the link below
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=nostalgia_SG024_BC0625_01.CivBeyondSwordSave


And HOF mod logs
Turn 78, 925 BC: Snaketown has been founded.
Turn 78, 925 BC: You have trained a Galley in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 79, 900 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 79, 900 BC: You have trained a Settler in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 80, 875 BC: You have trained a Worker in Mound City. Work has now begun on The Great Lighthouse.

Turn 81, 850 BC: Spiro has been founded.
Turn 81, 850 BC: Sitting Bull has completed The Great Lighthouse!
Turn 81, 850 BC: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 85, 750 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 85, 750 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 86, 725 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 86, 725 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

Turn 87, 700 BC: The borders of Mesa Verde have expanded!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Julius Rosenberg (Great Spy) has been born in Persepolis (Darius I)!
Turn 87, 700 BC: Your maps have proven that the world is round! Your ships receive a +1 Movement bonus.

Turn 88, 675 BC: Poverty Point has grown to size 6.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Poverty Point has become unhappy.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Chaco Canyon has grown to size 6.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Mound City are about to expand.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cahokia.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cahokia.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I is the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Mound City are about to expand.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Bismarck will trade Archery
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I will trade Archery
Turn 88, 675 BC: Gandhi will trade Archery, Iron Working
Turn 88, 675 BC: Bismarck will trade Sheep
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I will trade Cow, Horse
Turn 88, 675 BC: Stalin will trade Cow
Turn 88, 675 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Gandhi
Turn 88, 675 BC: Moundville has been founded.
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have trained a Settler in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Mound City have expanded!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Darius I's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 89, 650 BC: Cahokia can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 25 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Stalin has no worst enemy.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Gandhi will trade Monarchy
Turn 89, 650 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cahokia.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Poverty Point will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Spiro will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Mound City!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Sitting Bull has completed The Pyramids!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have constructed The Pyramids in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Confucianism has spread in Cahokia.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Mound City can no longer work on The Pyramids. The lost ℤ is converted into 4ℴ!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Chaco Canyon can no longer work on The Pyramids. The lost ℤ is converted into 48ℴ!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Bismarck adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 89, 650 BC: Gandhi adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 90, 625 BC: Cahokia can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 24 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Poverty Point has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Poverty Point can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow, 16ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 27 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Spiro has grown to size 2.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Spiro can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Nacogdoches has been founded.
Turn 90, 625 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Representation!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Caste System!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull's Dog Soldier 2 (Poverty Point) (4.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (0.58)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 90, 625 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sitting Bull's Dog Soldier 2 (Poverty Point) has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Your Dog Soldier 2 (Poverty Point) has destroyed a Archer!

 

[nanoprince]

That may postpone Scientific Methods by about 5 turns，but we may get enough compensation in more workers @ScientificMethod， more outside trees protected and higher total bottles. These compensations would be well worth of 5 turns.

some miss-spelling...

well done!
That may postpone Scientific Methods by about 5 turns， be we may get enough compensation in more workers @ScientificMethod， more outside trees protected and higher total bottles. These compensations would well be worth of 5 turns.

 

[sossos]

@obeliskgolem This is the test save file for the game play of your round (T90~T100)

 

[sossos]

Here are the notes which may be useful to your plan for the next 10 turns:

Cities:

1. Capitol: may build aqueduct next for the Hanging Garden
2. Corn city: no specific plan yet: may just grow or accumulate some great person points?
3. GLH city: get a great merchant in 5 turns
4. 4th city: grow or accumulate some great person points?
5. 3 fish city: just grow and 5->3 whip granary and lighthouse
6. Stone city: need to remember to get the whipped worboat out 2turns before border expansion
7. Cattle city: build a workboat for him self
8. West Island: net fish and whip WB itself?

Workers:
2 workers for the pig and 1 worker for chopping to granary? If 2->1 whip granary, maybe we can delay it.

Exploration:

Maybe we can have trade routes with Ghandi.
Make sure the workboats can be back to net the fish on time.

Techs:

Horseback Riding and Civil Service?

War:

Is it good to take the incense city to the west? We may need to calculate the odds of 0HA death, 1HA(horse archer) death and 2HA death

 

[nanoprince]

@ team

Here i'd like to list the Great People plan for discussion.
1） 1st G.S. developed alphabet.

2） C3 (Great Lighthouse City), borns 2nd G.P. @96T, either G.S or G.M.

3） C2(2-corns City), borns 3rd G.P. @101~104T, 100% G.S

4) C1 (Capital), borns 4th G.P. @106~108T, 80% G.S. / 20% G.E.

5) C3 (G.L.H. City), borns 5th G.P. @110~113T, 85% G.S. / 15% G.M.

6) C4（Southeast Coast City），borns 6th G.P. @116~120T, 100% G.S.

7) Pig City，borns 7th G.P. @123~124T, 98.5% G.S. / 1.5% G.A.

8) C2(2-corns City), borns 8th G.P. @125~126T, 100% G.S

9) 3-fish City, borns 9th G.P. @127~128T, 100% G.S

10) C3 (G.L.H. City), borns 10th G.P. @129~130T, 90% G.S. / 10% G.M.

The born age of 4th~6th G.P. could be adjusted in wider range.
I do think we can make a considerable military force together with this great people plan.


G.P. target:

3rd G.P. 100% G.S, develop philosophy

4th ~ 5th G.P.
68% 2 G.S., both develop education
19% 1 G.S. + 1 other， 1 G.S. to develop education
3% neither G.S., to be considered...

6th 100% G.S, hurry freedom for 1600 bottles （with mechanics blocked）
freedom -> astronomy

7th~10th
90% 4 G.S., 2 for printing, 2 for scientific methods
10% 3 G.S., 1 for printing, 2 for scientific methods

 

[sossos]

@nanoprince

I made an evaluation table below, but it's not easy to attach a picture at this forum. I calculated the yield % of each city and verify whether your plan is the optimum

Spoiler :

Base GP point % Capability Nano's Plan Comments
Corn+4th 32 27% 1,387 1700
Capitol+GLH 42 35% 1,820 1900 Mids+HG
3-fish 28 23% 1,213 900
Pig 18 15% 780 700 No lighthouse, 1 farm
Total 120 5200 5200

Jumping to conclusion, I agree with your plan. The gap of Corn+C4 can be gained in the next 5 turns. However, we may consider the cost of each horse archer in terms of GP point.

1 horse archer =50 hammer= 25 food = 37.5 base GP point. If we whip once for Capitol/Corn/GLH/3-fish and twice for C4, there will be an impact of about 180 food=270 base GP point. Since they are whipped before we get Pacifism and in the golden age, the impact is about 810 GP point, which is 2~3 turns.

Therefore, I'm also green with the war plan.

 

[obeliskgolem]

T91 - T100 Game play

According to our plan, I started the golden age at T97 and switch to Police State+Slavery+Orgnized Religious. Pity that we can't get any gold from other AIs due to the Pyramids compensation.

Another big mistake in my turns was that we can only have the 3rd GS the same time when golden age ends. We will have 1 turn anarchy for switching to Caste System+Pacifism after our golden age.

Lucky moment: 1 forest growth, 1 religion spread

Let's suppose that we can attack Darius on T112. T103 we switch to Representation+Bureacracy. T104 golden age ends. T108 switch to CasteSystem+Pacifism.

F1 status


AI technologies


F5 status

 

[sossos]

@obeliskgolem

Good play. A really exciting 10 turns with quite a few exceptions.

@flager

Will you play this week?

 

[flager]

Sorry for my big mistake! Keyboard(Alt button) is faulty and I declared war on Germany and Russia.
----
Here is your Session Turn Log from 375 BC to 125 BC:

Turn 100, 375 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Spy.
Turn 100, 375 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 100, 375 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Mesa Verde. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Atisha (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 101, 350 BC: Confucianism has spread in Mesa Verde.
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have trained a Spy in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Mesa Verde. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 102, 325 BC: You have discovered Civil Service!
Turn 102, 325 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Cahokia. Work has now begun on a Aqueduct.
Turn 102, 325 BC: You have trained a Swordsman in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Confucianism has spread in Moundville.
Turn 102, 325 BC: The borders of Nacogdoches have expanded!

Turn 103, 300 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Mound City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 103, 300 BC: You have trained a Horse Archer in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.

Turn 104, 275 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Representation!
Turn 104, 275 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 104, 275 BC: The borders of Poverty Point have expanded!
Turn 104, 275 BC: Antoine Laurent Lavoisier (Great Scientist) has been born in Poverty Point (Sitting Bull)!
Turn 104, 275 BC: You have trained a Swordsman in Mound City. Work has now begun on a Swordsman.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Sitting Bull's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 105, 250 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Taoism has been founded in Spiro!
Turn 105, 250 BC: You have discovered Philosophy!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Taoism has spread in Poverty Point.

Turn 106, 225 BC: Taoism has spread in Cahokia.
Turn 106, 225 BC: You have trained Confucian Missionary in Chaco Canyon. Work has now begun on Confucian Missionary.

Turn 107, 200 BC: Mohammed Shah (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 108, 175 BC: Cahokia can hurry The Hanging Gardens for 3⇴ with 23ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 26 turns.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Snaketown has grown to size 3.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Snaketown has become unhappy.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Snaketown can hurry Chariot for 1⇴ with 7ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 31 turns.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Nanih Waiya has grown to size 2.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Cahokia will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Poverty Point will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Chaco Canyon will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Mesa Verde will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Nacogdoches will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Sakae will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Stalin for Open Borders
Turn 108, 175 BC: Deal Canceled: Corn to Stalin for Gold Per Turn (1)
Turn 108, 175 BC: You have declared war on Stalin!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Stalin refuses to talk.
Turn 108, 175 BC: Deal Canceled: Fur to Bismarck for Gold Per Turn (1)
Turn 108, 175 BC: Deal Canceled: Fish to Bismarck for Sheep
Turn 108, 175 BC: Gandhi has founded Madurai in a distant land.

Turn 109, 150 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Sakae!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Cahokia has grown to size 7.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Poverty Point has grown to size 7.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Mound City has become healthy.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Chaco Canyon has grown to size 7.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Mesa Verde has grown to size 7.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Snaketown has become happy.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Nacogdoches has grown to size 6.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Sakae has grown to size 2.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Sakae can hurry Archer for 1⇴ with 24ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 109, 150 BC: You are the worst enemy of Stalin.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Darius I will trade Calendar
Turn 109, 150 BC: Confucianism has spread in Poverty Point.
Turn 109, 150 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Caste System!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Sitting Bull adopts Pacifism!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Bismarck for Open Borders
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have declared war on Bismarck!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Bismarck refuses to talk.
Turn 109, 150 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 109, 150 BC: The Hanging Gardens has been built in a far away land!

Turn 110, 125 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Sakae!
Turn 110, 125 BC: Mound City will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 110, 125 BC: Snaketown will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 110, 125 BC: You are the worst enemy of Bismarck.
Turn 110, 125 BC: Darius I won't trade Calendar

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

 

[sossos]

It's frustrating, but still affordable, flager.

The loss is about 2 turns(T108 and T110) of overseas commerce which is 18 gold. Neither Stalin nor Bismark is good trade partner. We can make them back to cautious by gifting some techs.

My judgment of not whipping the HG may bring bigger impact since it was built by AIs at T109.

Anyway, this has been the past events and we have to accept it, finding other alternatives to the victory.

@nanoprince @obeliskgolem @flager

This makes our ambitious goal (winning at T165) harder to achieve, but still manageable to win at T168 maybe. Based on the chart, we are still the No. 1 team.

 

[nanoprince]

2 Persian cities had been occupied.
I got surprised by the heavy war loss for the battle in the second city.
Still we have enough power to steal 1 more city.

But something happened then. A Great Engineer had been born in the Capital.
What should we do with this G.E.? Shall we consider religion victory？

 

[sossos]

@nanoprince @flager @obeliskgolem

Considering the loss from our army and the GE, I'm thinking about the religious victory now.


First let's list the conditions for the religious victory.

Preconditions:

1. We need to research theology(if not via war) as it's difficult to trade for it from Gandhi. (646 beakers of additional cost required)
2. We need to have a voter for us. Gandhi is the best as of now. (No additional cost)
3. We need to at least have 1 turn of anarchy(maybe more) to convert to Hinduism or other religions or no religion. This is to make us the only candidate of AP victory.
4. We need at most 5 misionaries for the remaining 5 AIs if they are not destroyed. As we need to change their civics. This is not the additional cost since our culture in the gift city will discount the espionage cost (200 hammers of additional cost)
5. We need to spread religion to make 75% votes. (2~5 missionary are needed, about 140 hammers).This is not difficult because:
1) we can gift the city to 3 AIs at the last turn, so they have no chance to have more votes
2) For the rest 2 AIs, we can either destroy it (such as Darius) or gift an island city, so they have no chance to spread religion


Totally we only need to invest 340 hammers and 646 beakers

Reference & Clarifications:

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Apostolic_Palace_(Civ4)
1. We can control the victory date by choosing the right time to convert our religion. The reason can be referred from the guide above.
2. If the Apostolic Palace is built at T125, we can choose victory date at the turns below (a graph may be needed to illustrate, to be drawn later)
T150~T153
T156~T157
T160~T162
T164~T167
T170~T171
T174~T175
3. I calculated the beakers and hammers that we need for the next 50 turns besides the AP victory investment. Please correct me if there's any mistake. Thanks.
Technology
Construction 546
Engineering 1560
Metal Casting 702
Machinery 1092
Compass 624
Optics 936
Biology 5616
Medicine 7020
Gunpowder 1872
Chemistry 1008 (GS bulb = 1800 beakers)
Education 359(GS bulb = 1800 beakers)
Divided by 1.2, we need 17,779 beaker in total before taking bonus buildings(libraries/universities etc.) into consideration
Forest Preserves
We have 39 forests so mar and the growing odds is 4.7% now. This means that we can grow 1 more before scientific method and 5 more after scientific method. This will be equivalent to a work load of about 900 worker turns. We need to build approximately 30 workers which is equivalent to 1800 hammers.
Military
Supposing we are gonna take all Persian and Russian cities and lose 1 catapult for each city, we need about 600 hammers.
Gift and Changing civic
We need at least a galleon(might be upgraded), 8 spies and 4 settlers(after destroying Persia and Russia). In total it's 820 hammers and 500 commerce(??)

To sum it, we need to yield a total of 25320 h/c (1 hammer=1 commerce) in the next 50 turns while compounding effects have been taken into consideration based on payback period of 25 turns. This is equivalent to 506/turn which is just twice of our current yield (245/turn)

Actions needed: (in construction)


How many relationship bonus is needed to get Gandhi friendly to us
How many turns of anarchy are needed per our city number?
Need to check the espionage cost.


Trade-off and comparison to be analyzed:

1. We can get AP from wars instead of building it ourselves.

Pros: we can save 400 hammers or 1200 beakers this way
Cons: we need to attack India and need at least 4 more galleons. (320 hammers)
If we attack India, our overseas trade income will be less.
We need more missionaries to spread Hinduism if we can't get Gandhi friendly to us. He may also spread Hinduism to other AIs, so we need more missionaries this way.

2. The path to conquest or domination is faster. As the AP victory date can be adjusted, the AP victory may be the fastest one. The risk is medium.

We need more info for simulation, but I think at least we are gonna have problems for conquests. We need much more soldiers to destroy all AI cities and there is Toku at another end of the world.

For domination, maybe we need to conquer Bismark and one of the Indias, together with some settlers to get 64% of the land.
If we got scientific method at T132, we need to whip at least 10 more maceman and 8 more galleons. This is 1340 hammers. They can be ready at least 5 turns later as we need to whip workers first. They can be ready to attack in another 5 turns. The war will last for 10 turns at least and the cities will come out from riot for another 5 turns. Then it's already T157. We may still need 5 turns to whip courthouse to get the cities from deficit to gain.
If there's any exception in the war, the date will be postponed.
Therefore, I'm a little bit prone to using the GE for AP right now, but the difference is still small.

However, if we go religious victory, we can skip astronomy, bulb biology with GS and liberal Medicine. In this way, we can save 5850 beakers at least.This means that we can whip more workers to pull in the victory date by about 5 turns.

Risks:

1. We can't gift city to an unknown AI. The risk is low since it's highly accessible on this map.
2. We can't get one AI friendly to us. As we've declared war on Bismark, Gandhi will be the best option as of now. However, it is a question how to get Hinduism.

 

[sossos]

If we go religious victory, the plan below may give us the biggest tolerance to win at either of the successive 10 turns.

Option 1: victory at T164~T167

1. In order to get AP ASAP, we are gonna get Theology at T121 and finish AP at T122.
2. Choose to abstain at T123, T133, T143,
3. Elect ourself to be the president at T153
4. Convert to no-state-religion before T163
5. Elect ourself to be the leader at T163, T164, T165 or T167

Option 2: victory at T162~T165

1. Elect ourself to be the president at T123, T137 and T151
2. Convert to no-state-religion before T161
3. Elect ourself to be the leader at T161, T162, T163 or T164

Option 3: victory at T168~T171

1. Elect ourself to be the president at T123
2. Abstain at T137 and T147
3. Elect ourself to be the president at T157
4. Convert to no-state-religion before T167
5. Elect ourself to be the leader at T167, T168, T169 or T170