[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Phoenix Rising
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elitetroops
Deity
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What am I missing?
This is what I calculate:
...Total 413
Diplomatic Ministry: 50
...
Which one do you think is wrong?
Spoiler :
We are eligible to propose AP victory and have 100% of the vote.
elitetroops
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Apparently Homies found yet another way to break the game, which allowed them to cash in 15+ points in culture every 2 turns with little to no effort. All based around the principle that when an AI liberates a colony, you get same amount of EP on colony as you have on master. Not sure on the details how they did it, but if you do a couple of Gspy infiltrations on an AI, then manage to have said AI spawn a new colony every 2 turns, then you'd get 6k EP every 2 turns that can be used for culture spread.
They ended with 123k culture in their spy city and didn't even get the trade route discount for their missions. Meaning they probably used a total of >25k EP for espionage missions. The fact that we almost managed to beat that is quite amazing!
It seems bomber can reveal location of every city and relocate to any city you have OB with, even in the fog, which Homies used to determine location and owner of every city in the world right from the start, and to reveal all capitals in the first dozen turns. Seems pretty flying camera-ish to me. Not sure if I would have wanted to use it even if I knew it could be done. Would have been nice to actually get visual on those American barb cities earlier though.
They ended with 123k culture in their spy city and didn't even get the trade route discount for their missions. Meaning they probably used a total of >25k EP for espionage missions. The fact that we almost managed to beat that is quite amazing!
It seems bomber can reveal location of every city and relocate to any city you have OB with, even in the fog, which Homies used to determine location and owner of every city in the world right from the start, and to reveal all capitals in the first dozen turns. Seems pretty flying camera-ish to me. Not sure if I would have wanted to use it even if I knew it could be done. Would have been nice to actually get visual on those American barb cities earlier though.
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elitetroops
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Next time, Pedro, next time. 
Have had a bit of time to gather thoughts on this game. Obviously a very great game! Though it got pretty intense towards the end. Sorry if I acted a bit grumpy yesterday. Was a bit frustrated as we were running out of time, but instead of discussing how to deal with the pop issue, I had to spend 2 hours convincing everyone that the barbs actually exist and that numbers were accurate...
But we survived that. Glad we got both a valid submission, and confirmation that our original plan would have worked. 
So thanks all! Especially Fippy for your amazing 20 turn micro planning in the end, such a massive amount of work you put in. And Gumbolt, as you say, it's good that you keep panicking about all possible issues and impossible non-issues, because there are things that we miss. Like the pop% issue you spotted. If you hadn't noticed when you did, it could have added another 5 turns to our victory date, or worst case we wouldn't have realized it before capping the last AI.
In retrospect, I think there were a couple of things we could have done much better. Early planning is always hard, especially in a scenario like this with many unknowns and unfamiliar elements. Had we known that our target victory date was around T70, we would for sure have reconsidered our early GP use. Settling GSpy was a clear mistake. We did it with the intention to have EP to spread out on several different AI for tech stealing and stuff, but we never did any other EP missions but the culture missions. Settling prophet, I'm not sure. We had a clear lead on the Homies with our early conquest. How much of this was thanks to production boost from Prophet, I don't know. Although getting a free wonder with shrine, or even using for Golden Age would not have been much worse.
In the late game, the main two issues were not understanding capitulation and not keeping track of population. These two happened to interact to only make situation worse. The threshold for capitulation is that AI must be below 1.4x average power. To get Churchill below that, we had to whip our empire into oblivion, which put us far below the required pop%. Had we known about the threshold and about the potential danger in Military Ministry, we would have realized that killing De Gaulle was a no-brainer. We kept him alive for 3 extra points in Civil Ministry (3 unnecessary backup points, as our target when the decision was made was 424), which forced us to whip military that cost us way more points from Military Ministry. Really should have seen that pop issue earlier. It's so obvious now when you know about it. That one is on me, as the number crunching guy I should have spotted it. We also noticed the 8 barb cities on T0, then didn't think about them at all after that.
But still, overall a very solid effort from everyone!
(And you sneaky bastards even found a way to force me to play some turns in the end. )
Have had a bit of time to gather thoughts on this game. Obviously a very great game! Though it got pretty intense towards the end. Sorry if I acted a bit grumpy yesterday. Was a bit frustrated as we were running out of time, but instead of discussing how to deal with the pop issue, I had to spend 2 hours convincing everyone that the barbs actually exist and that numbers were accurate...
But we survived that. Glad we got both a valid submission, and confirmation that our original plan would have worked. So thanks all! Especially Fippy for your amazing 20 turn micro planning in the end, such a massive amount of work you put in. And Gumbolt, as you say, it's good that you keep panicking about all possible issues and impossible non-issues, because there are things that we miss. Like the pop% issue you spotted. If you hadn't noticed when you did, it could have added another 5 turns to our victory date, or worst case we wouldn't have realized it before capping the last AI.In retrospect, I think there were a couple of things we could have done much better. Early planning is always hard, especially in a scenario like this with many unknowns and unfamiliar elements. Had we known that our target victory date was around T70, we would for sure have reconsidered our early GP use. Settling GSpy was a clear mistake. We did it with the intention to have EP to spread out on several different AI for tech stealing and stuff, but we never did any other EP missions but the culture missions. Settling prophet, I'm not sure. We had a clear lead on the Homies with our early conquest. How much of this was thanks to production boost from Prophet, I don't know. Although getting a free wonder with shrine, or even using for Golden Age would not have been much worse.
In the late game, the main two issues were not understanding capitulation and not keeping track of population. These two happened to interact to only make situation worse. The threshold for capitulation is that AI must be below 1.4x average power. To get Churchill below that, we had to whip our empire into oblivion, which put us far below the required pop%. Had we known about the threshold and about the potential danger in Military Ministry, we would have realized that killing De Gaulle was a no-brainer. We kept him alive for 3 extra points in Civil Ministry (3 unnecessary backup points, as our target when the decision was made was 424), which forced us to whip military that cost us way more points from Military Ministry. Really should have seen that pop issue earlier. It's so obvious now when you know about it. That one is on me, as the number crunching guy I should have spotted it. We also noticed the 8 barb cities on T0, then didn't think about them at all after that.
But still, overall a very solid effort from everyone!
(And you sneaky bastards even found a way to force me to play some turns in the end. )Looks like Elite is back on the turnset rota.
One thing we did miss was vassals. We could of created 7-8 vassals to fudge ministry score.
Yeah we all kind of forgot about those barb cities. I had commented on the 1600 land. Also on fact Americans were so slow to expand. Fact is when you are deeply involved in micro other things can get forgotten. I think we just assumed we would get 100 points.
Amazing job by team. Don't under sell your performance here Elite. Kaitzilla is openly applauding you on trade route for ep. She had not figured this out. Same for demo trade route trick. They scored 97.
Amazing work by our micro queen Mylene. Those last 20 turns were full on.
Whilst HS mocked us a bit near end they have to respect how much we squeezed out of this game early on and at the end. Our team has a lot of emotions and passion and I would not get rid of that. Elite and Mylene compliment each others skills perfectly.
Amazing finish given all the issues at end.
One thing we did miss was vassals. We could of created 7-8 vassals to fudge ministry score.
Yeah we all kind of forgot about those barb cities. I had commented on the 1600 land. Also on fact Americans were so slow to expand. Fact is when you are deeply involved in micro other things can get forgotten. I think we just assumed we would get 100 points.
Amazing job by team. Don't under sell your performance here Elite. Kaitzilla is openly applauding you on trade route for ep. She had not figured this out. Same for demo trade route trick. They scored 97.
Amazing work by our micro queen Mylene. Those last 20 turns were full on.
Whilst HS mocked us a bit near end they have to respect how much we squeezed out of this game early on and at the end. Our team has a lot of emotions and passion and I would not get rid of that. Elite and Mylene compliment each others skills perfectly.
Amazing finish given all the issues at end.
fyi, 1.4 is just Churchill. Each AI has a different multiplier in the XML.
Great Game PR! That final point squeeze can be very rewarding, enjoyable, and memorable play, but also frustrating and time consuming.
It might have been closer to 35k.
Maybe you were smarter using the bomber for earlier conquest. I didn't compare yet, but apparently you were quicker out of the gate. Well done, again.
We were trying to circumnavigate and determine the need for Astronomy.
Fippy
Mycro Junkie
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Thinking about smart things to write, but i will just say that i love our team and what we did
Elite you have been masterful with making all capitulations possible, and all game mechanics related topics.
As mentioned by Gumbo, especially exports / imports with DeG island cities was nothing short of pure genius.
But let's not forget how much value you guys, Gumbo and Lymo, add especially for team spirit, light hearted jokes and comments, keeping our morale high.
Just as important imo, and ofc you also played great turnsets.
We are always wiser after the game.
Going back now on what could have been, not my thingy.
Elite you have been masterful with making all capitulations possible, and all game mechanics related topics.
As mentioned by Gumbo, especially exports / imports with DeG island cities was nothing short of pure genius.
But let's not forget how much value you guys, Gumbo and Lymo, add especially for team spirit, light hearted jokes and comments, keeping our morale high.
Just as important imo, and ofc you also played great turnsets.
We are always wiser after the game.
Going back now on what could have been, not my thingy.
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So what you are saying is that I'm the Team Clown
I thought elite might be interested in this quite applicable bbp observation:
Of course, those guys have long been aware of My as a beastess
I recommend reading the last several pages of the Homies thread. Interesting analysis, criticisms, and compliments as our game was coming to an end.
"Going Back", not for the purpose of rueing our decisions, but learning is not a bad idea. It's amazing how the Homies, and their past iterations, always seem to find something or some way new to gain advantages. In this game, it seems 2 or 3 new exploits.
If not said say before, I'd like to say how amazing and wonderful you are My. And without question elite added a whole new dimension to this team's game.
I think one thing we learned that Homies are so good at, is planning the end game much sooner..almost apparently from turn 0.
And lastly, thanks to Gumbo for bringing us the tea
I thought elite might be interested in this quite applicable bbp observation:
Of course, those guys have long been aware of My as a beastess
I recommend reading the last several pages of the Homies thread. Interesting analysis, criticisms, and compliments as our game was coming to an end.
"Going Back", not for the purpose of rueing our decisions, but learning is not a bad idea. It's amazing how the Homies, and their past iterations, always seem to find something or some way new to gain advantages. In this game, it seems 2 or 3 new exploits.
If not said say before, I'd like to say how amazing and wonderful you are My. And without question elite added a whole new dimension to this team's game.
I think one thing we learned that Homies are so good at, is planning the end game much sooner..almost apparently from turn 0.
And lastly, thanks to Gumbo for bringing us the tea
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I wouldn't know how to make tea. Good luck getting in my home. Not even sure what date we finished. 350ad?
I just provided the popcorn and questions. I did question the military advisor several times but was always assured we would get 100. I should of questioned this more. I do know my way around numbers. I also wanted HBR sooner. I think chariots really helped on this map. 2mp units were key to fast conquest here.
I wonder what wonders HS captured? Did anyone capture any apart from us? Bit lucky on GLH maybe?
I just provided the popcorn and questions. I did question the military advisor several times but was always assured we would get 100. I should of questioned this more. I do know my way around numbers. I also wanted HBR sooner. I think chariots really helped on this map. 2mp units were key to fast conquest here.
I wonder what wonders HS captured? Did anyone capture any apart from us? Bit lucky on GLH maybe?
elitetroops
Deity
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We finished 375AD. Forgot to share this screen:
In case the rest of you were interested in shape of the world. That marble island we almost settled is quite large. (And yes, time is am...)
Yes, you did question Military Ministry. Somehow the dangers of that ministry totally slipped by. It was pretty much the first thing we decided that MilMin will give 100 points with conquest, no matter what. Then I didn't think much more about it. For example creating colonies to increase score would have been super simple, 10 points immediately with 4 settlers, but since we immediately assumed that we will get 100% out of it, I never investigated how to squeeze even more from it.
Spoiler :
In case the rest of you were interested in shape of the world. That marble island we almost settled is quite large. (And yes, time is am...)
Yes, you did question Military Ministry. Somehow the dangers of that ministry totally slipped by. It was pretty much the first thing we decided that MilMin will give 100 points with conquest, no matter what. Then I didn't think much more about it. For example creating colonies to increase score would have been super simple, 10 points immediately with 4 settlers, but since we immediately assumed that we will get 100% out of it, I never investigated how to squeeze even more from it.
LowtherCastle
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That was totally in fun. I have the deepest respect for you folks. This isn't the first game you should have beaten us. We need to up our game...
Btw, when I first quoted elite in our thread I forgot about the notification thing. Only after I saw you guys mentioning it did I feel compelled to troll you a bit.
LowtherCastle
Deity
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This knowledge dates back to something like SGOTM 7 or 8. I assumed others would know it. Since there are other ways to know about the barb cities from T0 and since we couldn't use it to circumnavigate, not necessarily an advantage. Like WT says, you guys focused on earlier warring and in CIV, earlier warring always is advantageous if you don't crash your economy. 9 cities when we have 6 is a 50% acceleration. That's huge.
Anyway, very well-played game, folks. I look forward to our next face-off with trepidation.
elitetroops
Deity
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Next game PR thread might feature a daily LowtherCastle quote. Whether it's for enlightenment or amusement, you'll have to wait until after the game to figure that out.
2 or 3? are you referring to this....
I'm not sure what 10 pts you're referring to, but we had assumed that this:
meant original civilizations, so it is capped at 40 points.
We didn't exploit this formula. We didn't even ask the staff if we should get more than 40 points for our extra colonies. That did not seem fair. And we didn't want them to tip off our strategy by clarifying the formula the other teams.
So we were had the same land and pop pressure you had, but we didn't leave ourselves in such an over-whipped state. We squeezed out every extra population and land tile we could like you had to do in the end to get well over 100 pts Military.
It wasn't high drama in our case since we blew past 100 pts (119 I'm told) I played the final 8 turns and I never counted any of our points
elitetroops
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It never occurred to me during the game that it could mean anything but original civilizations. But considering that the mapmaker's reply when I asked about pop scoring was "You can get more points than 30 from population. The only cap is the points of each ministry, which is 100", the same should apply also to other parts of that same formula, including AI dead/vassal.
I know you didn't need those points to win, nor even to get full points from Military Ministry. But if someone would have used this for faster victory, I would mainly have congratulated them for reading the rules more carefully and outsmarting us.
I know you didn't need those points to win, nor even to get full points from Military Ministry. But if someone would have used this for faster victory, I would mainly have congratulated them for reading the rules more carefully and outsmarting us.
Why would we try to manipulate it? We assumed we would always get 100 points so really never looked at it. The main downside to creating vassals is lower average power. You would need to wait till English were dead. It also might of messed up our 3 points for being first in each ministry. Albeit whipping 7-8 mish would not be hard. It would certainly of made filling map with cities much easier. Makes AP vote easier too. Of course we would always be capped at 100 points for this.
Getting 120-130k on culture would of really helped. We settled a G spy at start. Great for 12 EP a turn. 3 more points? Probably only gave us 1000EP or so compared to 3k. Took me a while to convince some that a single city could get over 50k EP. Test games helped here. Without the vassal trick this would of been almost impossible to get 120-130k culture in 70-turns. 3 more great spies required?
Military ministry mainly did us over. Waiting 7-10 turns for this was frustrating.
Looking at map shape it was literally a map of the world. I think it's time to move away from this. It's starting to get obvious where Ai are. Not that HS needed help on this with bomber. We assumed the location of all AI anyway. So bomber for warfare made more sense. Might of helped with America and barb cities I guess.
We have a sense of humour. Apart from Mylene who would eat you for breakfast. lol
Getting 120-130k on culture would of really helped. We settled a G spy at start. Great for 12 EP a turn. 3 more points? Probably only gave us 1000EP or so compared to 3k. Took me a while to convince some that a single city could get over 50k EP. Test games helped here. Without the vassal trick this would of been almost impossible to get 120-130k culture in 70-turns. 3 more great spies required?
Military ministry mainly did us over. Waiting 7-10 turns for this was frustrating.
Looking at map shape it was literally a map of the world. I think it's time to move away from this. It's starting to get obvious where Ai are. Not that HS needed help on this with bomber. We assumed the location of all AI anyway. So bomber for warfare made more sense. Might of helped with America and barb cities I guess.
That was totally in fun. I have the deepest respect for you folks. This isn't the first game you should have beaten us. We need to up our game...
Btw, when I first quoted elite in our thread I forgot about the notification thing. Only after I saw you guys mentioning it did I feel compelled to troll you a bit.
We have a sense of humour. Apart from Mylene who would eat you for breakfast. lol
