[BTS] SGOTM 25 Pre-Game Discussion and Announcement

[Fippy]

I echo that (wrote in some earlier posts that deity AIs are made by the extra settler, Immortal ones also have 1 worker).

I believe we are thinking too much about balancing teams. Different difficulty levels, huts & events all go against what Lymond pointed out..
sgotm are loved for comparing what teams do, under the same conditions. I would not touch that important part.

Let's instead think about what bonuses we all would like playing with, and which should be removed (like communism, it's really overpowered having SP).
Points system looks like a great idea to build on it's own, and we could just all play on Immortal (or Deity if wanted).

 

[LowtherCastle]

but remember, Deity AI's don't build more units.

That's not exactly true. On Ancient starts, Deity AIs quickly amass a stack of doom that can and will steamroll you if you're not ready for it. Their cities are always building something and if there are no buildings to build, then it's settlers, workers and units. I'm not sure how that plays out on Classical starts since I don't play them and since they'll have a couple buildings to build. Once they run out of buildings and settlers to build, units, units, units. So it's only a matter of time before Deity AIs will have a stack of doom. The challenge. in my mind, is to take their cities before that happens or at the very least, build yourself up enough to defend against it.

That said, I agree that Deity with its goodies looks like more fun. I hope we don't change sossos' scenario too much. He put a lot of thought and effort into it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Let's instead think about what bonuses we all would like playing with, and which should be removed (like communism, it's really overpowered having SP).

SP will take time to make it overpowering. Meanwhile, what I really like about what sossos has created is lots of variables to tinker with. That's what makes a good SG in my mind -- how to optimize all the variables? Boring is the same old same old.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another way to look at it is how to make the Immortal and Deity saves roughly comparable in power? In other words, if Team XZY played one or the other, they'd finish on the same turn. The problem is, this is hard to do without discussing strategy, which spoils the competition. I assume sossos tried to do this.

 

[Fippy]

Boring is the same old same old.

We always say that, and still last game was interesting with "only" forests preserves added.

What i would find boring is getting overwhelming advantages against AIs (lots of techs, bomber, great peoples and so on), resulting in steam rolling.
SP makes conquest and domination significantly easier, without waiting time cos you have no distance costs and can keep / found every city.

I like new, but dislike crazy new.

 

[WastinTime]

I agree that sossos has a master plan in his head, and it included giving us access to StateProperty and Kremlin (& Intelligence agency?) with Communism. Let's not tinker with it. Having SP before workshops is interesting and unusual. I like crazy-new
We're given instant Chokonus (machinery + IW). He already hinted that conquest may not be the best idea on his map...and he said that with the knowledge that we'd have SP and chokos.

So, in other words, I support keeping all the techs, units, etc. that are in the Deity save.

As always, I vote for events. Huts wouldn't bother me normally, but it seems like you could pop free Music or something awfully unbalanced.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We always say that, and still last game was interesting with "only" forests preserves added.

What i would find boring is getting overwhelming advantages against AIs (lots of techs, bomber, great peoples and so on), resulting in steam rolling.
SP makes conquest and domination significantly easier, without waiting time cos you have no distance costs and can keep / found every city.

I like new, but dislike crazy new.

I understand your point. I still prefer to trust sossos' judgment. We can't see behind the fog of the scenario. We can't even see the picture too well to know what those AI units are we're seeing. Are they even scouts/explorers? Not sure. What about that unit in the AI city? What's it? And so on...

One more point. SGs have never been about playing really hard games, because that makes it prohibitive for too many participants. We used to never play above CIV Monarchy. Then once we inched up to Emperor. SG games must be finishable or they're designed poorly. Gyathaar once created a Deity SG that everyone could win. Gives players with less experience a glimpse into the Deity AI without the frustration of getting slaughtered.*



* Full disclosure: I got slaughtered in the latest Diety BOTM...

 

[LowtherCastle]

That said, Fippy, my pleasure comes from playing with my teammates and I'll play any scenario. I don't want to come off as trying to suppress your point of view.

 

[Deckhand]

Seems like sossos did intend to create a Deity game and make it approachable by players of all skilled levels.

I believe we are thinking too much about balancing teams. Different difficulty levels, huts & events all go against what Lymond pointed out..
sgotm are loved for comparing what teams do, under the same conditions. I would not touch that important part.

Let's instead think about what bonuses we all would like playing with, and which should be removed (like communism, it's really overpowered having SP).
Points system looks like a great idea to build on it's own, and we could just all play on Immortal (or Deity if wanted).

Although, having multiple starts to select from is a big part of what sossos wanted with that decision a part of the competition -
I feel it is too hard to balance the starts and too much of the game hangs on that one decision.

I would prefer all teams to have the same start.
Then we could discuss the starting extra stuff here - or just let sossos decide.

 

[Mitchum]

I agree that all teams should use the same start. It would suck for a team to lose the game before it even starts by picking the wrong save. Playtesting and getting the balance perfect between the three saves would be virtually impossible, especially in an SGOTM where teams have 3 months to gain every advantage and use every tactic that isn't really possible in normal playtesting.

Without an official opinion from SOS, I'd vote for the Deity save just because it sounds like fun.

 

[elitetroops]

I agree that if this is the scenario sossos earlier claimed was winnable on deity by monarch players, then let's all go with the deity save! With those bonuses, it indeed should be winnable. And me want to play with bomber!

I don't like huts. Random events would be fine, if everyone wants them. Religions assigned from the start is probably best.

We can't even see the picture too well to know what those AI units are we're seeing. Are they even scouts/explorers?

Looks very Praetorian to me..

 

[Gumbolt]

The downside here. Many of those dictating what should happen here are deity players. Deity level may put off new players/teams. Let's not scare off new players with debates like this. The emperor/immortal save could be fun for new teams just wanting to get their feet wet in SGOTM.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Deity level may put off new players/teams.

That was my objection to a Deity level game - I'm sure it wouldn't play like normal Deity with those extra units but the Deity level players are also likely to be the ones most able to use these additions to the greatest advantage.

 

[LowtherCastle]

The downside here. Many of those dictating what should happen here are deity players. Deity level may put off new players/teams. Let's not scare off new players with debates like this. The emperor/immortal save could be fun for new teams just wanting to get their feet wet in SGOTM.

SO far we have sign-ups for Phoenix Rising, Unusual Suspects, and Home Slices. PR and HS are okay with deity, US no comment so far. I'm perfectly willing to go with the lowest common denominator. If US or a new team dictates the Emperor save, I'll go with it. First priority is to have a Succession Game.

 

[jatamixx]

I think having to chose one of the 3 saves (emperor/immortal/deity) is like betting on your victory date.

If you bet you can win in 100 turns, then you would rather chose the deity save because in the course of a 100 turn, the bonuses to the player (bomber, etc...) probably outweights the advantage given to the AI (+x% , etc...)

If you bet you can win in 300 turns, then you would rather chose the emperor save because the balance would probably shift the other way around.

​

 

[WastinTime]

I'd be fine with EMP level as long as we get most of the (fun) bonuses from IMM/DEI.
Otherwise, the EMP game as described, I would probably not play. It wouldn't feel like we're playing the game that was designed. Machinery, Communism, etc. are not just random extra free techs to give you a head start. They were selected for specific reasons.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

It wouldn't feel like we're playing the game that was designed. Machinery, Communism, etc. are not just random extra free techs to give you a head start. They were selected for specific reasons.

Agreed, at the end of day sossos has a vision for the game and we need to respect that.

 

[Rusten]

Maybe I should stay clear as I don't think I have time to play, but I don't understand why there is so much discussion. Even going back to the map maker thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past there was a mapmaker who made a scenario according to his wishes and vision and then people signed up when the scenario was done. I don't understand why everyone was included in the process, it has made a mess of things. It's better to have one voice.

Gyathar never had to go through such scrutiny!

 

[Fippy]

Nope that's not right, we were asked for our opinions and encouraged to discuss.

Some topics we can discuss in this thread:
1. Goody Huts
2. Events
3. Religions
4. Immortal and Deity bonuses
5. Scoring
6. Other questions about scenario
7. Starting screenshot
8. BUFFY version.
9. Anything else

snip

4. The bonuses for higher level saves are quite strong. They are intended to enable lower level players to play at the higher level. We may adjust these in response to our playtesting and your feedback.

snip

I accept all opinions, and if more peoples feel like those bonuses are fine that's okay.
Like everyone, my joy comes from playing with friends in a team.

What i not agree with is acting like we should have been silent, after being asked.

 

[kcd_swede]

I think the original offer by mapmaker can stay (though I am not a fan of huts/events). I would like the teams to vote on which level they want, and then we all agree to take the same start level that has the most support. Comparing strategies at the end will be really little value if we all play at different difficulty levels. But we don't need AlanH to decide for us... we should be able to handle it ourselves in the spirit of friendly competition. My first choice would probably be IMM, but a close second choice DEITY. But we should probably vote as teams rather than individuals.