[BNW] Should I get the Great Library regardless of victory type?

[InfluentBiscuit]

This is just a general question and I just wanted to see what you guys think. Should I get/rush the great library regardless of what ever victory. I'm playing Greece and going for a diplomatic victory and I'm worried if someone gets the library I'll be stomped on in the later game. I would like to go after other buildings and wonders, but letting someone else take the Great Library makes me uneasy. Thank you!!!

 

[Equilin]

I'd say it depends on difficulty level, as far as I read other's guides.

 

[mbbcam]

If you are playing Deity, there are very few wonders that you will ever get the chance to build because the AIs build them so quickly. Usually you don't even try to build them. Yet people regularly win on Deity. Ergo, I would say there is probably no need to build wonders, whatever the level. A better strategy is to build a large army and capture them. Read Consentient's guide on warmongering -- very handy:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/domination-on-immortal-deity-a-noobs-guide.547630/

Every AI you kill makes it easier to win a diplomatic victory.

 

[vadalaz]

Don't worry about it. Expand first, then build it if you can. Usually it's not worth rushing GL, as ignoring expansion/infrastructure/army hurts more than missing the wonder.

 

[joncnunn]

Quoting myself from an earlier thread on all world wonders:

GL is probably the most powerful wonder in the game; if in single player the human succeeds in building it it amounts to the "I win" button when the human picks Philosophy and follows it up immediately with NC.
The traps related to it are:
1. It teaches nothing about how to win without it.
2. As difficulty level increases, the starting terrain required to build it before the AI increases.
3. As in all great wonders in Civ V, fail gold is rarely worth it. In the case of the GL, if you miss by one hammer it doesn't even provide enough cash to build the regular library.

 

[MechMedic130]

Beyond playing like King difficulty it gets really difficult to get without an extremely productive start and the other Civs going after something else (highly unlikely). I usually play Emperor (beaten the game on Deity, this is just my preferred "fun" setting), and I think I might have gotten it maybe twice at that level. I typically play tall (love me some Venice especially) and I'll usually skip the first few wonders because the AI just gets the jump on them until you get caught up on Tech. I find that they skip the MoH alot though, so if you've got some stone nearby that can be a nice one to grab in a few turns if it is still sitting around. Usually I end up rushing Hanging Garden as Venice to get that sweet sweet growth rolling.

 

[docbud]

I used to always build on lower levels, but not I play Emperor level. I rarely get the GL, and have stopped trying for it in some games. But--if I have a salt start, I will try it. But even in games like that, it's hard to get. I usually lose GL by one turn. I lucked out last night as Babylon and a salt start (six of them), and got GL, and a bunch of other wonders that were only taking me a few turns to build.

Year right now is 1190 and I'm already in the modern age and tons of aluminum as well (which I never get when I start with salt). Totally kicking butt and probably the best game I've ever had.

But back to the original question--if you've got a great production start (as others have said), then sure--go ahead and try for it. But I've also had games with a salt start and one of the AIs built GL on turn 25.

I do think, though, that if you hit a ruin and get "education," then by all means try to get GL.

 

[Fish Man]

I used to always build on lower levels, but not I play Emperor level. I rarely get the GL, and have stopped trying for it in some games. But--if I have a salt start, I will try it. But even in games like that, it's hard to get. I usually lose GL by one turn. I lucked out last night as Babylon and a salt start (six of them), and got GL, and a bunch of other wonders that were only taking me a few turns to build.

Year right now is 1190 and I'm already in the modern age and tons of aluminum as well (which I never get when I start with salt). Totally kicking butt and probably the best game I've ever had.

But back to the original question--if you've got a great production start (as others have said), then sure--go ahead and try for it. But I've also had games with a salt start and one of the AIs built GL on turn 25.

I do think, though, that if you hit a ruin and get "education," then by all means try to get GL.

You mean writing, because that's what unlocks GL?

And yeah...above King, I don't even try. GL is definitely best wonder; it basically gives you a free tech, 3 beakers, and 2 GS points for 110 hammers (the rest you can consider as part of the "free" library) which can be gamebreaking, but the AIs know this and always seem to go for it. Usually by turn 50 it's gone; even if you do manage to make it, you'll have crippled your early expansion and/or land development.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

I almost always build the Mausoleum of H. and almost never get the Great Library. The AI must love it.
But since regular libraries are kind-of cheap anyway, and free techs are more useful later in the game (with Oxford U.), I really don't see the point on higher difficulties.

 

[Fish Man]

I almost always build the Mausoleum of H. and almost never get the Great Library. The AI must love it.
But since regular libraries are kind-of cheap anyway, and free techs are more useful later in the game (with Oxford U.), I really don't see the point on higher difficulties.

Mausoleum is an even worse wonder, IMO. Even if you have triple quarries near your start, which in and of itself is rare, you still only get +6 gpt, which is a paltry yield and definitely not worth the 185 hammers. As for the 100 gold every time a great person is used - also negligible compared to other stuff you could be getting. That does add up, yes, but to 1500-2000 gold max at the end of the game (not even enough to buy an SS part, and maybe enough to purchase 2 lategame units/buildings), at which point you've already either all but won or lost. And since you want to bulbspam only near the end, that gold won't even come into play that early; in fact, you won't get any GP gold for at least about 50 turns after the wonder is built. I think it's one of the worst wonders in the game, rivaled only by Angkor Wat.

Instead of throwing those 185 hammers away you could:
-Build a settler and a library to get your science and population and cities up much faster
-Build Oracle to finish tradition faster and get those aqueducts going, or finish liberty and get free great person
-Build National College and immediately increase science in your capital by, like, +15 beakers, with increasing returns as your cap grows

...and the list goes on. The opportunity cost is too high, and the wonder is too terrible, for the MoH to justify building in virtually any game.

 

[docbud]

You mean writing, because that's what unlocks GL?

And yeah...above King, I don't even try. GL is definitely best wonder; it basically gives you a free tech, 3 beakers, and 2 GS points for 110 hammers (the rest you can consider as part of the "free" library) which can be gamebreaking, but the AIs know this and always seem to go for it. Usually by turn 50 it's gone; even if you do manage to make it, you'll have crippled your early expansion and/or land development.

Yes--writing.

 

[docbud]

I almost always build the Mausoleum of H. and almost never get the Great Library. The AI must love it.
But since regular libraries are kind-of cheap anyway, and free techs are more useful later in the game (with Oxford U.), I really don't see the point on higher difficulties.

Just out of curiosity--what do you personally use Oxford for? I usually use it either for Radio, or for the tech that gives me satellites.

 

[Fish Man]

Just out of curiosity--what do you personally use Oxford for? I usually use it either for Radio, or for the tech that gives me satellites.

Not OP, but either radio or plastics. Satellites I get with rationalism finisher, for Hubble ASAP, and also because it comes about that late.

 

[Equilin]

Not OP, but either radio or plastics. Satellites I get with rationalism finisher, for Hubble ASAP, and also because it comes about that late.

I played exactly the same, except that sometimes on lower difficulties and playing wide (in the context of more land) I use Oxford for Industrialization (though that's rare) instead of Radio.

 

[phillipwyllie]

For me Oxford is for Radio(if no coal), or Plastics

 

[zxcvbob]

Temple of Artemis is a better science wonder than GL. Great Library is good maybe for a cultural victory because of the extra great works slots, but it's awfully hard to build because the AI's love it so much.

 

[miaasma]

if you get a high hammer start, get a writing ruin and you're playing on king or below, go for it. otherwise, it's a risk that is rarely worth it since it is easily the most sought-after wonder in the early game and the AI builds it extremely early. it's better to go for stuff like the temple of artemis, hanging gardens (if tradition) or pyramids (if liberty), as these tend to be less competed for, though it's always a risk at higher difficulties and i tend to just forego them entirely

 

[noto2]

I'd say the GL is actually one of the worst wonders in the game. The one-time tech boost is a very small reward for using precious early game hammers, hammers that could have grabbed you another city, for example. For tech rate, I'd say the Hanging Gardens is actually a better wonder. If its the slots you're looking for, writer slots are the easiest to come by. Korea basically gets 2 techs out of it instead of 1, so that's a little more lucrative, but even still, most of the time I skip this wonder. Temple of Artemis, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Petra - those are the big early ones to get.

 

[Acken]

It's an overrated wonder in general. It's good because of the free library included (so that you're basically paying 110H for a free tech and 3bpt) but I have never felt it was worth rushing for it at the expense of settlers. After that though unlocking a classic era tech like currency for Petra is pretty good. If you don't have an immediate use of the free tech though it's a waste.

Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis though probably take the cake of the best early game wonders with Petra on a good Petra city.

 

[miaasma]

the main reason GL is such a good wonder is because you can use the free tech to get philosophy and get national college absurdly early