Should you be able to change Social Policies?

Should we allow SP changes?

  • Yes, it only makes sense!

    Votes: 90 47.9%
  • No, it makes no sense!

    Votes: 98 52.1%

  • Total voters
    188
You can change social policies right now -- your empire will go into anarchy for a few turns when you do so.

For example, if you purchase all of the policies in piety, you can still purchase policies in the rationalism tree but the piety ones can't be active at the same time.

Perhaps this poll would be better worded, "Should you be able to exchange social policies?" or the like...
 
No to this. If you want the old civics system back, it needs to be added back via modding. Enabling people to change policies makes no sense with how they are implemented in the game.
 
I think more social policies need be diametrically opposed. Similar to how rationalism cannot be active along with Piety. Autocracy cannot be active with Liberty of Freedom.

The Commerce branch is greatly lacking.
There is ironically a 'trade union' upgrade but not 'free trade' Communism/Socialism is in the game but no 'free markets' and 'liberalism'.

Commerce needs to be buffed, and be diametrically opposed to Order branch.

And Tradition should be opposed to Freedom.

That way people make choices.
 
I think more social policies need be diametrically opposed. Similar to how rationalism cannot be active along with Piety. Autocracy cannot be active with Liberty of Freedom.

The Commerce branch is greatly lacking.
There is ironically a 'trade union' upgrade but not 'free trade' Communism/Socialism is in the game but no 'free markets' and 'liberalism'.

Commerce needs to be buffed, and be diametrically opposed to Order branch.

And Tradition should be opposed to Freedom.

That way people make choices.
Completely aggree. Commerce vs Order should reflect The Cold War era. Tradition vs Freedom should relect The Napoleonic Era/Wars. ...two major historical "forks in the road." ie: you couldn't fully support both ideologies at the same time.
 
What if everything was exactly how it is now, except when you buy another policy, you have to choose which one you want. As in, when you get tradition, you get its innate bonus all the time, but when you unlock all of the sub policies, such as monarchy, you must choose between monarchy and the other 4 in tradition. There could be 1 per section, ie tradition, honor, commerce, and they would still be exclusive, ie no autocracy with freedom (but you could choose which one you would like one policy from). As in, you could switch between total war and universal suffrage. There could be a limit between times you could do this too, as in civ 4 with civics.
 
Maybe. But some aspects did change and the form of government was important, so I think integrating both aspects ("social/culture traits" and form of government) would be optimal imo.

I think you found the key to the debate. I had lost sight that Firaxis took away social policies rather than added cultural policies. Those who are thinking of Social Policies as Social Policies, feel they should be allowed to change. Those who think of them as cultural policies feel they should not.

I think common graound can be found in the belief that since cIV had social Policies, ciV should have had social policies and they should be changeable.

I personally like the concept of cultural policies, And THOSE should not be changeable.
 
ShuShu62:

I'm not even sure Civics are really all that changeable in the real world. I mean, can any American President simply declare, "Whelp, we need infrastructure. Let's bring back Slavery!"

Government is a reflection of how the people want or will suffer themselves to be governed, and that is an indication of their cultural standpoint. You can't just go into the middle of a Medieval town, introduce the concept of Republic and expect the people to take to it, even if all of them really wanted to. There are social mores and ideas and practices that must be in place for that to happen.

Likewise, you can't expect a modern English town to revert to true monarchy. Ideas of nationhood and individual liberty are too entrenched. It might be some form of modern monarchy that has some of the ideas of old monarchial systems, but it won't be the return of Henry VIII.
 
ShuShu62:

I'm not even sure Civics are really all that changeable in the real world. I mean, can any American President simply declare, "Whelp, we need infrastructure. Let's bring back Slavery!"

Government is a reflection of how the people want or will suffer themselves to be governed, and that is an indication of their cultural standpoint. You can't just go into the middle of a Medieval town, introduce the concept of Republic and expect the people to take to it, even if all of them really wanted to. There are social mores and ideas and practices that must be in place for that to happen.

Likewise, you can't expect a modern English town to revert to true monarchy. Ideas of nationhood and individual liberty are too entrenched. It might be some form of modern monarchy that has some of the ideas of old monarchial systems, but it won't be the return of Henry VIII.

You, as always, do not understand that you can't think of civilization only about last 100 years... And still you are wrong, becasue a lot of contries suffer revolution that changed drastically their lifestyle even in '900 and maybe nowadays...

China changed from a bureaucratic and centralized monarchy, to a communist police state, only to change to a capitalistic and bureaucratic state ruled by a formally communist party.

But obvious civics need improvement, like locking some option when they became obsolete (like wonders), or sub them with others...

As you can see, there is ever a better solution than erasing, it's called improving..
 
JLoZeppeli:

China's Imperial rule was hardly centralized. Mandarins held so much power that the Emperor had to call them in on an annual basis just to remind them he was in charge, and they didn't always remember that when they got back home.

This decentralized, bureaucratic system kept itself mostly intact during the so-called "police state" change in Chinese politics. In fact, during Mao's rule, the ancient independent farm system existed mostly intact in many rural localities until well into Deng's reforms.

The modern Chinese state is still based on this bureaucracy for the most part, and the local politicians of the CCP still hold a lot of power in their locales, especially the ones far from Beijing. In fact, there is a power struggle now between Beijing and the lower-tier locals about property laws, rights, allocations, and such.

Adapting relatively free-form capitalistic practice was relatively easy for China because it has had traditions of powerful mercantile interests in the past, so all it had to do was relax restrictions on those interests and they could resurface with all the trading practices and social infrastructure they had maintained all these years.

We like to think of these revolutions as drastic changes introduced by outside forces, but it seems to me that in each instance, it was merely a change triggered by coincident events, but pushed forward by large inertias of social forces. In some arenas, the changes were largely nominal in nature.

The Magna Carta had history propelling it forward, and it, in turn, created a cascade of events that slowly changed the people into a body that could be ready for things like representation.

The Magna Carta could not have been envisioned by the Aborigines of Australia. They had no need of it, and their ongoing social mores would have made much of it nonsensical.
 
Oh yeah. Great idea. No changes. Ever in history. So true.

Myself, I still believe the world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, and we live in the best of all possible worlds. Zeus/Jupiter/Anu/Thoth/Jehovah/et al are all still up there in the sky watching over us, right? No revolutions, no changes ever occurred in history. Matter-of-fact, we're all still living in caves, aren't we?

:rolleyes:

Unchanging "social policies" is one of the worst aspects of the latest version.
 
JLoZeppeli:

China's Imperial rule was hardly centralized. Mandarins held so much power that the Emperor had to call them in on an annual basis just to remind them he was in charge, and they didn't always remember that when they got back home.

This decentralized, bureaucratic system kept itself mostly intact during the so-called "police state" change in Chinese politics. In fact, during Mao's rule, the ancient independent farm system existed mostly intact in many rural localities until well into Deng's reforms.

The modern Chinese state is still based on this bureaucracy for the most part, and the local politicians of the CCP still hold a lot of power in their locales, especially the ones far from Beijing. In fact, there is a power struggle now between Beijing and the lower-tier locals about property laws, rights, allocations, and such.

Adapting relatively free-form capitalistic practice was relatively easy for China because it has had traditions of powerful mercantile interests in the past, so all it had to do was relax restrictions on those interests and they could resurface with all the trading practices and social infrastructure they had maintained all these years.

We like to think of these revolutions as drastic changes introduced by outside forces, but it seems to me that in each instance, it was merely a change triggered by coincident events, but pushed forward by large inertias of social forces. In some arenas, the changes were largely nominal in nature.

The Magna Carta had history propelling it forward, and it, in turn, created a cascade of events that slowly changed the people into a body that could be ready for things like representation.

The Magna Carta could not have been envisioned by the Aborigines of Australia. They had no need of it, and their ongoing social mores would have made much of it nonsensical.

So the only part i was wrong was the centralization, i'm sorry, i wasn't thinking of the mandarins power, I'm a little stuck on the warring states period and the Yellow turbans rebellion about ancient history of China as well on the Kublai Kahn period.

Magna Charta Libertatum was made because the Barons threatened the King, it is a way different thing than your statement, if you tihnk of it, other countries reached representation way before England (like USA or France), because it was only an aristocratic parliament in the end....

By the way, what do you think of my proposal? Civic locking by eras (obsoleting like wonders), or substitute them with others?
 
Social policies should be more like Civ4 civics focusing on different areas such as economy, labor, law etc. They also should be organised in tiers, for example in government branch you'd have:
First tier - Despotism,
Second tier - monarchy and republic
Thrd tier - authoritarism and democracy
Unlocking the next tier would require the culture while adopting the policy would require a specific tech. Add one policy switch per 10 turns with and each more costing a turn of anarchy and you get a system that combines the best of Civ4 and 5.
Also, I may sound a bit racist here but it would also explain why democracy and free market often fail in Third World countries which haven't developed a strong enough culture to accommodate them
 
I think there should be the option to 'revolution' and reselect your social policies. It should be expensive enough that you can only activate it once or twice in a game though.
 
JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure what to think of your idea just yet. Need time to mull it over. Could be good.

JLoZeppeli said:
Magna Charta Libertatum was made because the Barons threatened the King, it is a way different thing than your statement, if you tihnk of it, other countries reached representation way before England (like USA or France), because it was only an aristocratic parliament in the end....

Exactly. The Magna Carta only became possible because the Barons were powerful enough to challenge the King, in a system that was supposed to be autocratic, but corrupted by social practices and ideologies to have Barons who were not subservient.

The demand of the aristocracy for more representation and their clamor to claim power from a central ruler in the form of a body that was representative of their interests - it laid the social foundation for the idea that everyone could participate in rulership.

Once the common man began to think like this and felt entitled to representation, then republic could begin. You cannot start a republic in a nation where the people do not feel entitled to, or perhaps are even offended by, representation.
 
JLoZeppeli:

I'm not sure what to think of your idea just yet. Need time to mull it over. Could be good.



Exactly. The Magna Carta only became possible because the Barons were powerful enough to challenge the King, in a system that was supposed to be autocratic, but corrupted by social practices and ideologies to have Barons who were not subservient.

The demand of the aristocracy for more representation and their clamor to claim power from a central ruler in the form of a body that was representative of their interests - it laid the social foundation for the idea that everyone could participate in rulership.

Once the common man began to think like this and felt entitled to representation, then republic could begin. You cannot start a republic in a nation where the people do not feel entitled to, or perhaps are even offended by, representation.

I have to disagree strongly... Romans had Republic way before, ad so it was the Diet in Holy Empire (not to think of the Athenian democracy). The social foundation of which you are speaking come mostly from the American Revolution...
 
Sure. The Romans had the social infrastructure for Republic, in their manner, which is not the same as it is in modern republics. Just because they had these prerequisites in place earlier doesn't mean that all peoples have it, or that social mores in successor peoples can't change to make it impossible again.

The American Revolution itself was only possible because of ideas presented and thought about and taught to Americans prior to the event. If the nascent Americans had the social structure and ideas of the Hawaii peoples at that point in time, I'm skeptical that they would have formed a republic anyway, particularly because they would have had no idea what a republic is to begin with.

Let's look at another example. The Philippines is supposed to be an American client country of some sort, and it supposed to have some version of American democracy or republic running in it. It's supposed to be The Republic of the Philippines, but is it truly a republic? When was the last time their senators and congressmen truly represented the interests of their constituents?
 
Sure. The Romans had the social infrastructure for Republic, in their manner, which is not the same as it is in modern republics. Just because they had these prerequisites in place earlier doesn't mean that all peoples have it, or that social mores in successor peoples can't change to make it impossible again.

The American Revolution itself was only possible because of ideas presented and thought about and taught to Americans prior to the event. If the nascent Americans had the social structure and ideas of the Hawaii peoples at that point in time, I'm skeptical that they would have formed a republic anyway, particularly because they would have had no idea what a republic is to begin with.

Let's look at another example. The Philippines is supposed to be an American client country of some sort, and it supposed to have some version of American democracy or republic running in it. It's supposed to be The Republic of the Philippines, but is it truly a republic? When was the last time their senators and congressmen truly represented the interests of their constituents?

After that i'm starting to thing that you don't grasp the matter too well, just pretend..

First of all, you don't seem to know the Roman Republic structure, way more democratic than the Magna Charta Libertatum. Because the consuls, expression of the aristocratic senate had the counterpart in person of the tribunes, expression of the plebs (the commoners). and the equestris class in some years became part of the senate itself...

The American revolution was possible thanks to the ideas of the Enlightment in France, by Voltaire and Rousseau, as an example....
Going back to the times of Magna Charta is a bit odd, it was important for the Medieval Era, because a king was forced to admit arisotcracy in the governament by law...
 
JLoZeppeli:

I was kind of aware that the Roman Republic was of that nature, but what does that matter? Would you have been able to establish a similar structure in, say, the Siamese Kingdom? I mean, let's say that you introduce the concept and everyone was amenable. Do you really think that a Roman Republic would have worked given otherwise Siamese cultural mores and practices?

I went to the Magna Carta because there is a traceable progression from that event to the eventual establishment of representation in England. I'm pretty sure that at least some English aristocrats were well aware of the Roman Republic and its practices during their time. Could a King have implemented it, even if he wanted to? I seriously doubt that.
 
It's a game. Whether or not social policies change in history is irrelevant. If you like the idea of shifting social policies or not, it's your opinion, and perfectly fine for you.

Me? I've always liked the extra strategic gameplay value of changing social policies, introducted by Alpha Centauri and adopted as well in Civ IV. If that floats your boat, great. If it doesn't, great. If you enjoy Civ V as it is, good for you, and I sincerely mean that. Each to his/her own.
 
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