Shrine in Emperor+ games

[GWItheUltimate]

Hello,

This is my first intervention in this forums so hello everyone, nice to meet you all !

I have a question. I'm experimenting at the Emperor level right now (only have 1 cultural victory so far), and I'm getting better and better with the huge amounts of hints and strategy on this forums.

I have a question however. I'm doing a standard game (Emperor, Continent, Standard speed, standard map size, pretty standard !) with Isabella and I've been able to found Bhudism at my first try, a game that I lost ! But overall I didn't dislike to try to found an early religion (the safest would be Hindu, then follow up to Judaism is Hindu fails). Also, quickly after since I'm spiritual, I get a quick temple, put a priest on and start building a worker and expand. I suppose my capital is a costal city for that extra commerce tile in the begening.

But the problem is, Isabella doesn't start with any Worker Tech, and trying to get a Shrine cost a lot of time/resources for the early expansion. Is it worth it ? I mean, do you guys sometimes try to found a religion at that difficulty level ?

Thanks for your help !

GWI

 

[krikav]

No, never.
It isn't worth it.

* You will get the prime target of the AIs who belong to another religion.
* You will be behind in tech.
* There will be one less early religion for the AI to found (making it less likely that two AIs will hate each other)
* You will have to get a GProphet and shrine him yourself.
* You have to go missionary spamming to make it worthwhile.


Workertechs and getting the capital rolling is much more important early on.
If you want to found a religion, go for Code of Laws early.

Better yet, attack a AI and take their shrine for a religion that they have spend alot of effort into spreading.

 

[krikav]

Nice to meet you too!

 

[Seraiel]

Hello,

This is my first intervention in this forums so hello everyone, nice to meet you all !

I have a question. I'm experimenting at the Emperor level right now (only have 1 cultural victory so far), and I'm getting better and better with the huge amounts of hints and strategy on this forums.

I have a question however. I'm doing a standard game (Emperor, Continent, Standard speed, standard map size, pretty standard !) with Isabella and I've been able to found Bhudism at my first try, a game that I lost ! But overall I didn't dislike to try to found an early religion (the safest would be Hindu, then follow up to Judaism is Hindu fails). Also, quickly after since I'm spiritual, I get a quick temple, put a priest on and start building a worker and expand. I suppose my capital is a costal city for that extra commerce tile in the begening.

But the problem is, Isabella doesn't start with any Worker Tech, and trying to get a Shrine cost a lot of time/resources for the early expansion. Is it worth it ? I mean, do you guys sometimes try to found a religion at that difficulty level ?

Thanks for your help !

GWI

Hi there

I always play my games on Huge maps with founding Buddhism. Buddhism is better then Poly, as it denies the AI to get Monestaries so they won't be able to spread their Religion until reaching Mono, a point where you should trade for it, and have lot's of so you'll be able to compete. Before that, use auto-spread extensively, get Sailing, connect to the rivers, get an exploring WB and Scout out, and many Civs will have your Religion even before you can build any Missionaries. If you have problems founding Buddhism, pick leaders that start without Mysticism and you'll get it in at 90% (dis the games where you don't get it) .

Don't negelect Worker Techs though, get at least Agri + Mining. You can neglect the rest imho, as one can Mine / Farm almost all ressources, until one gets the other Worker-Techs by Techtrade. Izzy starts out with Fishing, so you'll probably won't need The Wheel + Pottery if you settle coastal cities and work the coast. This approach makes getting GLH too very seductive.

A good tech-route would be imho to go Meditation -> Agri -> Mining -> Priesthood -> start building Oracle -> Writing -> Alpha -> trade for everything -> Oracle Currency. If you're playing on Emperor, you can also think about teching CoL and choose CS as a tech from Oracle.

Just my thoughts.

Greetz, Sera

 

[Um the Muse]

^ Maybe going for Buddhism works if nobody starts with Mysticism and you do, but I'm pretty sure that if you don't cherry-pick your opponents, this isn't necessarily even possible. In my "Shoot the Moon tips" post, I've got a game with double riverside gems and an oasis. Now, Joao doesn't start with Mysticism, but according to you that can be an advantage, right? No matter what I do, though, I can't get more than a handful of turns into Buddhism before somebody lands it.

In my more regular games, even when I start with Mysticism I can't count on getting Buddhism. I would bet that you need either Myst + FIN leader or multiple oases (and no worker).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

In my more regular games, even when I start with Mysticism I can't count on getting Buddhism. I would bet that you need either Myst + FIN leader or multiple oases (and no worker).

There comes a point where you simply can't win the drag race if you are in one. Everything depends on the dice rolls that determines whether the AI prioritizes your religious tech.

 

[krikav]

A good tech-route would be imho to go Meditation -> Agri -> Mining -> Priesthood -> start building Oracle -> Writing -> Alpha -> trade for everything -> Oracle Currency. If you're playing on Emperor, you can also think about teching CoL and choose CS as a tech from Oracle.

Just my thoughts.

I think your thoughs are too optimistic. I don't see how one can just go for alphabet just like that. For me, it feels like it takes forever.
I usually have problems getting writing in time for when the oracle is done when I am trying to shoot for CoL early.

This is on Imm difficulty though, but I still doubt that emperor techrate is that much higher...

 

[ChanceDanger]

I'm not 100% on this, but I also think that Temple of Artemis is a handy religious wonder, as the 100% trade modifier seems to mean that every AI capital you're connected to will choose your ToA city as one of its trade routes. I believe this has to do with the fact that trade routes don't sync between players (I.E. early game, Athens only trade route goes to say, Rome, while Rome's only trade route goes to Madrid)

Though if someone would correct me I would be happy to know. It came up in a recent game where I finished ToA and a Shrine within two turns and it seemed like auto-spread was much better than usual.

From game thread (Same Start Challenge in December):

Little update in Monarch Lincoln, wonder if anyone has ever experienced this before:

Built TOA, Shrined and got my trade routes open to everyone. Seems that ToA means every AI city in the world wants your trade route. This is a screenie is 6 turns after ToA and 5 turns after Kong Miao was built. Does this have some hidden synergy that I've never heard about? Because I just switched someone who didn't found buddhism from it with only open borders and trade routes. Didn't even have to ask them . Year of screenie is 325 BC

There was a picture along with it that shows Confucianism with 29% influence with it being spread in only 2 of my cities, at that point Buddhism was only at 13%.

 

[Ghpstage]

I'm not 100% on this, but I also think that Temple of Artemis is a handy religious wonder, as the 100% trade modifier seems to mean that every AI capital you're connected to will choose your ToA city as one of its trade routes. I believe this has to do with the fact that trade routes don't sync between players (I.E. early game, Athens only trade route goes to say, Rome, while Rome's only trade route goes to Madrid)

Though if someone would correct me I would be happy to know. It came up in a recent game where I finished ToA and a Shrine within two turns and it seemed like auto-spread was much better than usual.

Bonuses to trade in your cities have no impact on rival cities picking them to have trade routes with, and they are purely one way, Rome having routes to Athens and London will not prevent you having a route to Rome.

On the religion front, it spreads across trade networks, not trade routes, trade networks being what makes trade rotues possible (i.e. connections).
Reading your linked thread I reckon the percieved extra increase was due to the doubling of the spread rate from your shrine, and the underdevelopment of earlier religions (perhaps from not yet having a shrine or being geographically isolated).

 

[ChanceDanger]

Bonuses to trade in your cities have no impact on rival cities picking them to have trade routes with, and they are purely one way, Rome having routes to Athens and London will not prevent you having a route to Rome.

On the religion front, it spreads across trade networks, not trade routes, trade networks being what makes trade rotues possible (i.e. connections).
Reading your linked thread I reckon the percieved extra increase was due to the doubling of the spread rate from your shrine, and the underdevelopment of earlier religions (perhaps from not yet having a shrine or being geographically isolated).

ah, thanks for the clarification

 

[Seraiel]

^ Maybe going for Buddhism works if nobody starts with Mysticism and you do, but I'm pretty sure that if you don't cherry-pick your opponents, this isn't necessarily even possible. In my "Shoot the Moon tips" post, I've got a game with double riverside gems and an oasis. Now, Joao doesn't start with Mysticism, but according to you that can be an advantage, right? No matter what I do, though, I can't get more than a handful of turns into Buddhism before somebody lands it.

Where shall I have said that? O_o

If you don't start with Mysticism, forget about founding Buddhism. It's simply impossible on Deity.

In my more regular games, even when I start with Mysticism I can't count on getting Buddhism. I would bet that you need either Myst + FIN leader or multiple oases (and no worker).

The key is to settle on a riverside lux while working a riverside lux and start with Mysticism. Riverside Lux + Riverside lux brings up Research from 8 to 12 (or even 14 if FIN) increasing Research by 50% (75% if FIN).

I think your thoughs are too optimistic. I don't see how one can just go for alphabet just like that. For me, it feels like it takes forever.
I usually have problems getting writing in time for when the oracle is done when I am trying to shoot for CoL early.

This is on Imm difficulty though, but I still doubt that emperor techrate is that much higher...

Questions: Do you build SH for Failgold and do you play with goody Huts? Getting like some hundred from SH and even more from GHs helps greatly in researching Alpha fast.

 

[Manco Capac]

Buddhism is better then Poly, as it denies the AI to get Monestaries so they won't be able to spread their Religion until reaching Mono

Hmmm. Interesting thought. I always supposed the AI(principally zealots) love Meditation gunning because it cost less than Poly, but it may the monestary unlocking that pushes them to get that tech most of the time over Poly.

 

[ben-jammin]

Never worth it. Let the AIs spread their religions and build their shrines, then take them. At the 3 highest difficulty ratings having a different religion from all your surrounding AIs is a no-no, the hammers for missionaries need to be used for other things, and if you get a great prophet you should just settle him in your capital.

 

[Um the Muse]

^ Never say never Seraiel is accustomed to HoF play. With his very specific method of winning, I can easily see how shrines might be the best way to win him the game.

Sorry, Seraiel, for misinterpreting you on the Mysticism thing.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Take the shrine from the stupid AI who will always found a religion. Here's the moto of CiV, wonders, and religions are generally bad for you to build/found, but gggggggreeeaaaat for you to take! (Some exceptions may apply.)

 

[krikav]

I have a question however. I'm doing a standard game (Emperor, Continent, Standard speed, standard map size, pretty standard !)
GWI

Don't really think Seraiel is contributing to this thread, when once again dragging up his huge+marathon, super-spiced starts with multiple gold, playing almost only Huana Capac, doing quencha-rushes and _specifically_ aiming for a high score.

The thread poster ask for information about NORMAL speed and NORMAL size, and specifically mentions this.

I do not think you guys should discuss other special cases, and weird games under very specific conditions.


For the case that is asked for: normal/normal,
ben-jammin tells a true story:

"Never worth it. Let the AIs spread their religions and build their shrines, then take them. At the 3 highest difficulty ratings having a different religion from all your surrounding AIs is a no-no, the hammers for missionaries need to be used for other things, and if you get a great prophet you should just settle him in your capital."

 

[vicawoo]

Don't really think Seraiel is contributing to this thread, when once again dragging up his huge+marathon, super-spiced starts with multiple gold, playing almost only Huana Capac, doing quencha-rushes and _specifically_ aiming for a high score.

The thread poster ask for information about NORMAL speed and NORMAL size, and specifically mentions this.

I do not think you guys should discuss other special cases, and weird games under very specific conditions.


For the case that is asked for: normal/normal,
ben-jammin tells a true story:

"Never worth it. Let the AIs spread their religions and build their shrines, then take them. At the 3 highest difficulty ratings having a different religion from all your surrounding AIs is a no-no, the hammers for missionaries need to be used for other things, and if you get a great prophet you should just settle him in your capital."

Keep it classy.

 

[Um the Muse]

Thanks for getting us back on track. I think I've been confusing this thread with another that's been going on in the same vein.

Anyway, this is slightly off-topic, too, but why settle your GP's in your capital? I thought you'd want it where the extra hammers are most needed?

 

[GWItheUltimate]

Thank to everyone for quick feed back.

Yes I've restarted a game with Isabella while kinda ignoring the Religious tech path... and I've went trought an outstanding start ! At some point, I was the tech leader by some good margin and then a GP poped and I bulbed Theo, so I founded Christianity... But later, the next GP I got, I didn't even found the Church because there was only 3 cities with this religion and I didn't want to bother spreading it, i felt it was a big waste of time and hammer !

Now I've went trought a war with my neighbor, who I erradicated, but I think it compromised my lead in tech. Justinian with a huge empire who used to be a lot behind is almost ahead of me and still growing. I think It's the time to try to put a lot of espionnage point towards him and steel him his tech etc.. like a strat I've read on this forum. Either that or I might try to make him a war, but he loves me (friendly), he was a good ally. But still I'm afraid of him, his the leader in point, cities etc...

I'll post a save shortly but should I try to bother him with espionnage while keeping good relations or should I kick him in the face ?

 

[Ataxerxes]

Thanks for getting us back on track. I think I've been confusing this thread with another that's been going on in the same vein.

Anyway, this is slightly off-topic, too, but why settle your GP's in your capital? I thought you'd want it where the extra hammers are most needed?

I'd think it would depend if you are running Bureaucracy. Extra hammers are needed everywhere - you can slave-rush if you really need a building. Also, if you're going for an important wonder, your Bureau capital probably has the best chance of getting it.