sidar balance
- Thread starter dan14444
- Start date
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Y'know, I'm not generally impressed with the Sidar, but this aspect of them does seem like it isn't working as we should want it to. Archmages are the top tier unit that most reasonably needs to be limited, and the Sidar pretty easily get around that limitation.
It might make sense if national units can't shade, or do so at a HIGHER level (Due to their prominence in society waning is more difficult?)
It might make sense if national units can't shade, or do so at a HIGHER level (Due to their prominence in society waning is more difficult?)
xienwolf
Deity
Well, it DOES fit the Sidar story though. An Archmage wants to continue his arcane studies beyond his natural lifespan, so Wanes, but then loses his passion, but keeps his abilities. He then sticks around for thousands of years, still quite capable as a Mage, but not that interested in doing much.
If anything, the only thing which is counter to their story is that you cannot learn new spells with the Mage, and you CAN move him around and use him at will. If he was immobile it could fit the proper flavor a tad better I guess.
If anything, the only thing which is counter to their story is that you cannot learn new spells with the Mage, and you CAN move him around and use him at will. If he was immobile it could fit the proper flavor a tad better I guess.
Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
We aren't talking flava' here 
. You can almost rationalize anything flavorfully, or balance something in a way that can be explained. It just seems this part of the Sidar balance is a little off. I'd much rather they got this hiked back a bit, and pick up a more generally useful early game strategy to compensate. (Or just make the defender trait better?).
. You can almost rationalize anything flavorfully, or balance something in a way that can be explained. It just seems this part of the Sidar balance is a little off. I'd much rather they got this hiked back a bit, and pick up a more generally useful early game strategy to compensate. (Or just make the defender trait better?).Ksi
Warlord
I agree with Xienwolf. Changing religions doesn't affect high priests. Play on a higher difficulty. They are only a late game builder civilization, attack them instead of leaving them alone and it will be fine. If you feel they are too strong it is your settings or difficulty, Kael and the team made them very well.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I guess that makes sense. That way you can have 3 archmage-shades, and keep one slot open for your other units to wane and be used as great specialists.
After reading xienwolf's post, I think I'll make shades immobile arcane units. (To prevent the AI from getting their unit stuck in the field, I'll probably make the spell only castable in a city.) They wouldn't have any of their own promotions (including channeling), so non arcane units that wane won't get any arcane abilities, but archmages will keep on learning. This will probably be done together with making them national units. 4 archmages, 4 archmage-shades, and maybe Liches (although since the Sidar abhor the undead, I wonder if maybe they shouldn't be allowed liches. Maybe Shade and Lich could share a unitclass if you don't let them cast Lichdom? Of course, with the changes I plan to make to Liches that might be inconvenient for me) sounds pretty good, even if 4 of them are stuck in a city
After reading xienwolf's post, I think I'll make shades immobile arcane units. (To prevent the AI from getting their unit stuck in the field, I'll probably make the spell only castable in a city.) They wouldn't have any of their own promotions (including channeling), so non arcane units that wane won't get any arcane abilities, but archmages will keep on learning. This will probably be done together with making them national units. 4 archmages, 4 archmage-shades, and maybe Liches (although since the Sidar abhor the undead, I wonder if maybe they shouldn't be allowed liches. Maybe Shade and Lich could share a unitclass if you don't let them cast Lichdom? Of course, with the changes I plan to make to Liches that might be inconvenient for me) sounds pretty good, even if 4 of them are stuck in a city
Good solution.
Also, I think the level for wane should be indexed for game length - in maraphon there is too many barbs and animals to train shades... 50+ shades on turn 200 is too much.
So I can keep different high priests now? Interesting, I did not notice this change...
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
High Priests still abandon when you change religions.
I think what he meant was that Shades that used to be High Priests keep their spells, but don't abandon you. (I haven't played as the Sidar in .31, so I'm not really sure if the religion carries over in order to allow the spells or not.)
Personally I think that priests spells should all require the appropriate state religion, so converting would still cost you the spells even if a waned high priest can still cast. I also think that priests should not have a prereq state religion requirement, so the Order could still use Empyrean priests (this is thematically correct, just check the Bannor entry) but the only spell they could cast is Cure disease. (I also think that Cure Disease and Heal should require only Medic 2/3; Thematically, Grigori Medics should not have divine or channeling, plus the divine promotion mouseover is cluttered as is.)
It might also be appropriate for Disciple units to be unable to Wane. While Mages-Shades fit their theme very well, Priest-Shades do not. I think that these units would have to devote their spirits to the appropriate gods of their religion, instead of consuming their own souls for immortality. The Altars are probably a but too strong for them currently.
I think what he meant was that Shades that used to be High Priests keep their spells, but don't abandon you. (I haven't played as the Sidar in .31, so I'm not really sure if the religion carries over in order to allow the spells or not.)
Personally I think that priests spells should all require the appropriate state religion, so converting would still cost you the spells even if a waned high priest can still cast. I also think that priests should not have a prereq state religion requirement, so the Order could still use Empyrean priests (this is thematically correct, just check the Bannor entry) but the only spell they could cast is Cure disease. (I also think that Cure Disease and Heal should require only Medic 2/3; Thematically, Grigori Medics should not have divine or channeling, plus the divine promotion mouseover is cluttered as is.)
It might also be appropriate for Disciple units to be unable to Wane. While Mages-Shades fit their theme very well, Priest-Shades do not. I think that these units would have to devote their spirits to the appropriate gods of their religion, instead of consuming their own souls for immortality. The Altars are probably a but too strong for them currently.
Ecofarm
Deity
Agree. Spells castable should depend on unit religion.
Disagree, they should be able to cast tier 2 of their religion.
Medic 3 + heal = units are never hurt.
xienwolf
Deity
@dan14444: Was it your first GA? That only requires a single GP. If it was your second or later GA then it gets to be a possible bug.
@xienwolf: yes, it was the 1st GA
I think Sidar should be the second agnostic civ - it will downgrade them from the absolute champion to still one of easiest civs to play.
It also excellently fits the storyline - they keep "god's food" for themself.
I think Sidar should be the second agnostic civ - it will downgrade them from the absolute champion to still one of easiest civs to play.
It also excellently fits the storyline - they keep "god's food" for themself
.Zechnophobe
Strategy Lich
Er.. what? Sidar are really a second rate civ. Agnostic is a Cripplingly bad trait to have, and would likely make them unplayable.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
They shouldn't be agnostic, they just shouldn't be able to use wane on disciple class units.
(If they were agnostic, they would be the third, not second agnostic civ. Auric has agnostic again in .31)
(If they were agnostic, they would be the third, not second agnostic civ. Auric has agnostic again in .31)
Or may be wane should be a random promotion with tiny chance every turn to appear? Modified by certain techs and buildings? I don't see how experience in whacking Orcs lead warriors to the ritual...
P.S. You are right about Auric. And I feel sorry for him, since he is probably the weakest one now... Agnostic trait may fit his storyline, but requires heavy, really heavy bonuses to compensate...
P.S. You are right about Auric. And I feel sorry for him, since he is probably the weakest one now... Agnostic trait may fit his storyline, but requires heavy, really heavy bonuses to compensate...
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I don't see why you should feel any more sorry for him now than in .30; before he got the trait back, he still had a -100 weighting towards all religions, so he could still not adopt a religion. He did tend to found about half of them though, which kinda wasted his research. Nevertheless, he tended to have one of the highest scores in most games. I fail to see how him not wasting his research would hurt him.
My modmod is going to give him "Disciple of the Hand" type UUs though. ("Autotheistic" would be a better description for him)
My modmod is going to give him "Disciple of the Hand" type UUs though. ("Autotheistic" would be a better description for him)
