SirPleb, Going for Sid

Originally posted by bradleyfeanor
I built a nice little hilltop city so I could add my third and fourth units to each army, and PLOOEY, adios to 3 armies, 10 longbowmen, 34 swiss mercs and 85 trebuchets.
Ouch, that had to really hurt. I hope you got the trebuchets back. But there's no getting the armies back of course :(

As you now know you can add units to armies without a town. In my invasion I originally wanted a town to claim a luxury. A bit later I wanted one for another reason. My invasion felt a bit stalled - slow healing was a nuisance and I wanted a barracks. I've now succeeded in establishing a town and I've found a way to use the AI's desire to destroy it to advantage. I'll post about that when I have the Inca under control.
 
Originally posted by ConanConQ
If u have time, maybe you could answer some Q's ?
I know you are very busy and that it must take a lot of time making this thread the way it is. It is immensely good and detailed.
Thank you! Sure, I'm happy to.

Originally posted by ConanConQ
First.. what is your score now ?
At my current date, 1540AD, score is 20341. I don't have a good projection on final score yet.

Originally posted by ConanConQ
Second.. How do u make these nice screenshots ? into what program do u paste them ?
Assuming you are using Windows:

1) You can go to the screen you want in Civilization, then use the <PrntScrn> key to copy that screen to the clipboard.

2) Then use some program which can handle an image on the clipboard. There are a huge number of these, some free, some commercial and ranging in price from cheap to expensive. I use ThumbsPlus. It is a great program for general purpose picture handling - cropping, resizing, and maintaining picture albums. But it isn't much good for drawing. Since I don't do much drawing I don't have a program for that, I just use the Windows "Paint" program. E.g. if I want to add a circle or an arrow, then I capture the image in ThumbsPlus, save it as a .bmp file, open it in Paint and do my bits of drawing, save it, then reopen it in ThumbsPlus and save it as a .jpg (a better format for posting to a web site.)

Originally posted by ConanConQ
Third.. Can you use a special program to get a nice startlocation ?
Yes indeed, click here for the thread which has Moonsinger's utility for finding good starts!

Originally posted by ConanConQ
Fourth and last... Is there any hope for impatient players like me to win Sid level ? :lol:
"Impatient" may present a problem... :lol:
 
Great job, SirPleb. I don't even play civ anymore. This is the only thread I venture out of OT to read! :goodjob: :goodjob:
 
i'm waiting with anticipation with your war with the incas!:love:
let em have it!:ripper:
 
Wow, just the thought of attacking 800 units makes my eyes go in circles :crazyeye: ... see! Great Game, SirPleb :goodjob: and thank you for documenting it as well as you do. I see you did have a great Great Library Elevator ride :D

A random thought: would you consider the penetrating army tactic exploitive? If you know, or are reasonably certain, that the AI won't attack the army, and then pillage vital resources or luxuries, this would seem akin to scout resource denial. I'm thinking more in respect to the GOTM and its list of banned exploits.
 
War With The Inca

After learning Combusion in 1460AD I focused on reducing the strength of the Inca as quickly as possible. I had to stop them quickly to avoid them winning a cultural victory. I'd previously started an invasion but with only a small force since my 4-Cavalry armies could not travel in Galleons. I still had an army blocking the Inca from claiming rubber and they remained unable to build Infantry.

I quickly transported my 4-Cavalry armies to the Inca continent and began attacking cities. My forces went in two groups, one invading at the south and one mid-continent where I'd previously tried and failed to settle a town to claim dyes.

I made some quick initial progress, razing a few Inca towns in the first few turns of my invasion. After that progress slowed. Part of the problem was healing - without a town with Barracks my units were slow to heal. When I first settled a town to claim the dyes, before my main invasion, the Inca immediately over-ran it. I decided to try again to get a local town. It seemed pointless to try capturing and holding an enemy city. Incan culture was so much greater than mine that culture flipping was far too great a risk. So I'd have to settle a town of my own.

In 1490AD I tried settling a town which did not claim a luxury nor a resource to see whether the Inca would leave that alone. I defended the town with a 4-Cavalry army. Nope, the Inca immediately attacked and destroyed it.

I tried again in 1505AD, using a newly created 4-Infantry army to defend a town. Once again the Inca immediately attacked and destroyed it. They seemed determined to stop me from having a settlement in their lands at any cost. And they could afford just about any cost :lol:

By 1520AD I felt that my invasion had largely stalled. After 10 turns of my invasion the world looked like this:



Each Inca city was as strongly defended as the one before, requiring many healed Cavalry armies to take it. I'd even lost some Cavalry armies in over-aggressive attacks on fortified Riflemen with slightly wounded armies. I wanted a new approach. And at this date (1520AD) I finally realized what that might be. I knew that the AI would not attack a Cavalry army in the open, and DUH, that's all I needed to know to solve the problem, should have realized it sooner. I shuffled my units and in 1525AD I settled a town to claim dyes in the Incan coastal area I'd cleared:



I could just have surrounded the town with Cavalry armies, that was the logical next step. It seems likely that would be all it would take to stop the Inca from attacking and thus to have a barracks and claim the luxury. But I wasn't sure - perhaps the AI is clever enough to, in that situation, attack the blocking armies and blitz through to the town. And it didn't matter anyway because I couldn't resist going further. You can see in the above that I've created a funnel to the town - the Inca can only come at it via the coastal route to the south. I've pillaged the roads on the first two tiles of that path so that Inca Cavalry can at most move to the tile next to my town in one turn, they can't immediately attack. I figured if they didn't attack that would be fine, and if they did attack via the funnel I'd just destroy their units in the open as they approached my town. And their units would be weakened by going past my Cavalry armies with their zone of control.

Hah! I still hadn't fully realized the Inca's strength. The Inca troops poured in. In 1530AD the funnel looked like this:



Looks innocent eh? The Inca Cavalry beside my town is the top of a stack of 238 Cavalry. The Knight behind (south of) it is a non-issue, there are just 3 Knights there. The third stack represented by a Rifleman, which will take two turns before it arrives at my town, is uncountable! It has 10 Archers, 10 Cavalry, about 120 Guerillas, 24 Longbowmen, 73 Medieval Infantry, and an unknown quantity of Musketmen and Riflemen. At least 19 Musketmen, that's the end of the right-click list. Looks like the game will only display the first 255 or so units in a stack. It seems a safe bet there are a lot of Riflemen not being shown.

I threw everything I had (a bit over 100 artillery and cannons, and all healed Cavalry armies I had in the region) at the incoming Cavalry. Destroyed 63, leaving 175. Then I evaluated my defenses. I had three 4-Infantry armies and two 3-Infantry armies, left over from when I'd built some of these thinking they'd hold towns. A quick calculation showed that wouldn't be enough. The Inca Cavalry could easily overrun my defenders.

So I abandoned my beachhead town. I destroyed 13 more Cavalry with units I'd held in reserve and opened a gate north of the remaining Inca Cavalry, hoping they'd return to their home towns. A good number of them had lost 1hp and would want to heal. I'd be losing three workers which I couldn't move out of the way in the exit path I'd chosen:



Although I'd lost my invasion town again, this was a turning point. I now knew roughly how strong the Inca were and I saw a way to defeat them.

In 1535AD the Inca Cavalry all went home and most of their other stack took one step toward home. And I constructed my first deliberate Funnel Of Doom. This time I prepared better. I switched all production at home to Infantry and rushed a number of them. I brought all my invasion armies together to help with the funnel. I made the funnel longer so that my armies lining it would take more potshots at incoming units passing their zone of control. In the next turn few Inca units entered the funnel. Many of their Cavalry were healing I think. In 1545AD the Inca again came at me in full force. By this time I had seven 4-Infantry armies in the town and I was about to rush an Aqueduct - next turn I'd be able to join some workers to make it a city with a defense bonus. This screenshot is after I hit the attackers:



I'd destroyed 117 attacking Inca Cavalry and left the remaining 53 at my doorstep wounded. Those 53 wouldn't have a chance of taking my city. And they didn't even try - all of them were wounded and they retreated next turn.

In subsequent turns the Inca troops kept swarming down the funnel, which I shortened after the first turn, and each turn I killed enough to remain safe. I soon started attacking units further down the funnel on my turn, allowing the Inca units which had reached my city to attack. This increased my kill rate nicely - the Inca who'd made it through the funnel threw themselves uselessly against my defenses each turn. The first and largest incoming group which survived to attack my city and died there was 59 units in 1555AD.

In the six turns from 1555 to 1580 the FOD (Funnel Of Doom :) ) was operating at full capacity. During this stage 189 Incan units attacked my city and died in the attempt, and I destroyed another 482 Incans further down the funnel. Average 112 Incans/turn. I lost 12 Cavalry during this time, average 2/turn. A good kill ratio. I was very happy with the funnel!

In 1585AD the FOD was nearly empty. I didn't need it anymore. The total number of visible Inca units wouldn't be able to take my city if they all attacked on the same turn. So I disbanded the funnel and sent my Cavalry armies out once again to destroy Inca cities. This time I expected they'd be relatively unimpeded, and they were. Most Inca cities had just 4 or 5 defenders. There were some larger clumps of Inca units (I don't know why) but they weren't huge and weren't a problem.

In 1595 I took the Inca capital with Smith's and Pyramids. I intend to keep this city. Smith's is very valuable, worth about 500gpt to me at this time. I won't be able to hold it of course - Incan culture is vastly greater than mine. I left it undefended and retook it once before I drove the Inca off their continent. I will be staying at war with Inca just so that I can retake this city any time it culture flips to them.

In 1605 I razed the last Incan city on her home continent:



My forces at this date:
24 Knights in 6 armies
48 Infantry in 12 armies
184 Cavalry in 46 armies
7 additional Cavalry (lower than at most times, I'm hurrying more)
86 Artillery, plus a fair number of captured ones, perhaps 50

The Inca are well under control. I'll finish them off later, they aren't a priority now. The Inca must have mobilized early in our war - I saw their culture growth slow to 1/2 rate. At this point they have about 141K culture. They won't get close to the 160K culture win, it turns out I was over-worried about that.

Next I plan to invade Aztecs. China would be easier but I think I'm better off to make a new deal with them for furs and to invade Aztecs first to take their silks.

The Aztecs probably have nearly as large a military as the Inca had. But I don't expect they'll be a problem. I'll go straight to the Funnel Of Doom approach now that I know how to use it.

I've traded to learn Espionage and used my most recent leader to rush Intelligence Agency at this date. Soon I'll be able to plant a spy in the Aztecs and see exactly what they've got.

Milking

After learning Combustion in 1460AD I changed all scientists to civil engineers where useful, taxmen elsewhere. My income jumped to 1741gpt at that date as a result and has ranged between 1500 and 2500gpt ever since.

I haven't used that income for milking. The war effort has been more important and most of my income has been used to rush an Army almost every turn. But the Civil Engineers are even better than gold. Most of my corrupt cities have all required improvements at 1605AD and are producing settlers and workers for future use.

Throughout the war I've been filling in cities where I have excess food in my homeland (i.e. have more food than required to support the existing size 12 cities in a region.)

In 1545AD I got the message "too many cities". I'd filled in so many cities that the map was at the maximum the game can handle. This was convenient - when I started razing Inca cities a bit after that, I didn't have to worry about anyone filling in the cleared land. I was at the domination limit but by filling in additional cities in my homeland I've kept the world at the maximum number of cities and prevented the AIs from settling. I have begun settling some of the prime land in the ex-Inca territory and disbanding land at home to compensate. I'll continue this process of replacing poor holdings by better ones while I wage war on the Aztecs.

Luxuries have continued to be a major problem. I have six now. That isn't enough for milking. When my most recent deals with Aztecs and China lapsed in 1565AD I boosted my luxury rate to 50% and even that didn't get me to maximum happiness. I'm losing score due to lack of luxuries. I plan to make another deal with China next, even though the cost has become very high. And soon I should be able to take silks from the Aztecs which I hope will mark the end of my luxury shortage.

Current score is 23239, at 1605AD.
 
Originally posted by civ_steve
would you consider the penetrating army tactic exploitive? If you know, or are reasonably certain, that the AI won't attack the army, and then pillage vital resources or luxuries, this would seem akin to scout resource denial. I'm thinking more in respect to the GOTM and its list of banned exploits.
Armies seem somewhat exploitive in all regards to me as they currently exist in Conquests. They're too powerful considering that the AI won't attack them in the open and doesn't build them.

OTOH, I'm not sure what I'd do at Sid level without them :)

I don't think it matters a lot at the moment for GOTM. In Civ3 and PTW armies weren't this powerful and MGLs are usually better used for wonders. And even if GOTM moves to Conquests and Conquests armies haven't been better balanced by then, perhaps it doesn't matter because every player can do the same thing without great effort? It would be a shame to see a no-armies rule or a no-army-on-resource rule, my feeling is that a cure along those lines would be as bad as the problem.
 
Originally posted by civ_steve

A random thought: would you consider the penetrating army tactic exploitive? If you know, or are reasonably certain, that the AI won't attack the army, and then pillage vital resources or luxuries, this would seem akin to scout resource denial. I'm thinking more in respect to the GOTM and its list of banned exploits.

I don't see how pillaging vital resources of a Civ you are at war with could be considered exploitive no matter how it is accomplished. People use all kinds of techniques to get this done including using explorers for deep peneteration suicide raids.
 
Prior to reading your latest installment, I was reading Aeson's note about Fully-Healed Armies not being attacked in the Field. Looks like they won't be attacked.......even if their Health is NOT at 100%!? Have you had an Army in the field with only ONE hit point being left unscathed? :)

2nd Question: How do you heal your Armies participating in the Funnel Of Doom.....OR, have you not had to? :)
 
SirPleb,

There is a trick I learned long ago you may not be aware of. The cost of luxuries is a function of their benefit to the buyer, so when I get into the situation you find yourself in, I temporarily disconnect all my luxuries and buy the missing ones before reconnecting mine.
 
Originally posted by Svar
SirPleb,

There is a trick I learned long ago you may not be aware of. The cost of luxuries is a function of their benefit to the buyer, so when I get into the situation you find yourself in, I temporarily disconnect all my luxuries and buy the missing ones before reconnecting mine.

So, if I understand, the seventh and eighth luxes cost more because, with markets, they make more people happy? That's a neat trick.

SirPleb -- Certainly the most entertaining and dramatic game I've kept tabs on in quite a while (who am I kidding? Probably best game ever). Already you have seen ways of creating an even higher score. Are you already planning the next epic?
 
Truly Magnificent! The bards shall sing it as The Lay of One-Wonder Sir Pleb and the Funnel of Doom!
 
Imagine, SirPleb, if Firaxis had programmed the AI to attack armies in the field ? do you think an invasion of a strong island like the Incas would ever be possible on Sid level ?
Perhaps they deliberately programmed it NOT to, in order to make this game winnable :)

Just a thought
 
The number of Incas is amazing. Wouldn't you have been in trouble if they visited your home island, instead of fall into your web?

I dread to think how long this game takes to play. No wonder we haven't heard from you in GOTM recently. I hope you will be back soon.
 
Originally posted by EMan
Prior to reading your latest installment, I was reading Aeson's note about Fully-Healed Armies not being attacked in the Field. Looks like they won't be attacked.......even if their Health is NOT at 100%!? Have you had an Army in the field with only ONE hit point being left unscathed? :)
I found out earlier in this game that there's a limit somewhere. If an army is weak enough then the AI will attack it. I think my army which was attacked in the open was around six hp. I don't know what the limit is. I know that an army with 12hp and defense 5 is safe from attack by AI Cavalry. An army with somewhere around 6hp and defense 4 is not safe.

My guess, before reading Aeson's note, was that the AI has a threshold based on the attacker's strength vs. the defender's strength measured by a combination (perhaps just multiplication) of hp and defense strength.

Since losing a weakened army I've been avoiding leaving 4-Cavalry armies exposed when wounded to less than green status and that has always been safe.

2nd Question: How do you heal your Armies participating in the Funnel Of Doom.....OR, have you not had to? :)
I was a bit tricky with those armies to maximize their use. Each turn I'd use all healed armies, including those forming the walls of the funnel, to attack the tile(s) I was focusing my attacks on. Each army would attack until it either went yellow (and would continue attacking even when high yellow if the best remaining defender was Cavalry) or had used its first three attacks. Then I'd decide whether to:
1) Send the army to the town with barracks if yellow or red.
2) Send the army to a funnel wall position if I had one open.
3) Attack again otherwise (still in the green and the funnel wall has no holes in it)

Low-green armies making up the funnel are safe and heal after a couple of turns of wall duty :)
 
Originally posted by Svar
There is a trick I learned long ago you may not be aware of. The cost of luxuries is a function of their benefit to the buyer, so when I get into the situation you find yourself in, I temporarily disconnect all my luxuries and buy the missing ones before reconnecting mine.
Thanks, I didn't know that trick. I've already gone ahead and traded with China at full cost so I won't be using it at the moment. This seems to be another grey area trick - it circumvents the intent but in a legal way. I'm not sure whether I'll use it in future or not. (Of course my preference is to never need to trade for luxuries at all :lol: )
 
Originally posted by SesnOfWthr
Already you have seen ways of creating an even higher score. Are you already planning the next epic?
Only vaguely. I could start a similar game and go for a higher score using what I've learned but I don't think that would fun right after this game. (Maybe after some time has passed though :) ) I've had some thoughts about trying a somewhat different approach to a Sid game, and also about playing at a much lower difficulty level just to see how much score can be squeezed from a Conquests game. But I probably won't start another high score HOF game until the final (or near-final) patch of Conquests comes out.
 
Originally posted by ConanConQ
Imagine, SirPleb, if Firaxis had programmed the AI to attack armies in the field ? do you think an invasion of a strong island like the Incas would ever be possible on Sid level ?
I think it would still be possible, but it would definitely require a different approach and I think would take longer. For instance, one might invade with a huge combined stack of Riflemen or Infantry and Cannons or Artillery. Put the Riflemen / Infantry into armies as much as possible. Land on coastal hills for defense bonus. If possible choose hills beside a river for better defense from one side. If possible pillage roads/railroards around the landing site to slow incoming units. Bring a settler to build a town the turn after landing, and rush barracks and walls in that town. The goal of all this: make the AI lose many more units in its attack than we lose in defense. A high kill ratio does seem critical at Sid level.

Without having tried it I'm not sure that could work of course :)

Another possibility, if it didn't seem possible to build a large enough invasion force vs. the AI's forces, would be to hurry toward Flight techs and invade with bombers. Conquests' lethal bombardment seems absolutely deadly as a technique. This approach would require hurrying tech a bit earlier in the game to avoid an AI cultural victory.

And there are probably other approaches...
 
Originally posted by Offa
The number of Incas is amazing. Wouldn't you have been in trouble if they visited your home island, instead of fall into your web?
I sure would! :lol: I'd even have been in trouble if they'd just attacked everything I sent to their island, with whatever they had handy. If they'd done that, they'd have had a cultural victory. My current approach is only working because the AI isn't good at sea invasions and won't attack healed armies in the open.

I've just begun my invasion of Aztecs, no fighting yet, just landing my troops. I have Intelligence Agency now and have planted a spy there. It is funny to see the size of the Aztec military. They only have 18 cities on their island. Can't be all THAT big, can they? Well, Sid level keeps surprising me a bit. The Aztecs have:
11 warriors
57 archers
51 spearmen
53 horsemen
54 pikemen
122 longbowmen
232 knights
436 riflemen
72 cavalry
18 jaguar warriors
177 medieval infantry
64 guerillas

Small as the Aztecs are, if they were to throw everything they have at me immediately I wouldn't have a chance. But they won't of course :)

There are units positioned all over their relatively small island. I had just one option for a landing spot in the area I wanted. It may take a while to form a Funnel Of Doom, I'm thinking about whether some variation on the technique might get one up and running sooner.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb

11 warriors
57 archers
51 spearmen
53 horsemen
54 pikemen
122 longbowmen
232 knights
436 riflemen
72 cavalry
18 jaguar warriors
177 medieval infantry
64 guerillas

:eek: :eek:


436 Riflemen, I take it they dont have rubber..thankfully!! :)
 
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