SMAN's The World at War

[sman1975]

Wow, you learn something new every day! I had no idea the current flag of Turkey (or something close to it) reached that far back in time. Do you think I can use it for the Ottomans, if I finally every get around to that "Great Game" scenario - set in the 1870's?

If so, I'll be sure to use it, but also update all the WW1 scenario, and also the "font icon" in the Unique Units mod. It's the very small civ icon that appears at the end of the unit names of all Ottoman/Turkish unique units.

The symbol used in the WW1 scenario looks like this:

I really don't remember where I found that. The problem with using Wikipedia for this documentation is there are frequent conflicts in the articles, so one is never quite sure what to use, in many cases. I'm assuming the Turkish flag would be preferable for WW1?

 

[jeriko one]

Wow, you learn something new every day! I had no idea the current flag of Turkey (or something close to it) reached that far back in time. Do you think I can use it for the Ottomans, if I finally every get around to that "Great Game" scenario - set in the 1870's?

If so, I'll be sure to use it, but also update all the WW1 scenario, and also the "font icon" in the Unique Units mod. It's the very small civ icon that appears at the end of the unit names of all Ottoman/Turkish unique units.

The symbol used in the WW1 scenario looks like this:

View attachment 573477

I really don't remember where I found that. The problem with using Wikipedia for this documentation is there are frequent conflicts in the articles, so one is never quite sure what to use, in many cases. I'm assuming the Turkish flag would be preferable for WW1?

Yeah, for sure you can use that one for the "Great Game" scenario and the WW1 Scenario. Except for the official dimensions, the flag has been more or less the same. This is also the official stance, even for the pro-Ottomans now (found an official statement on that one).

You are absolutely right about Wikipedia articles. That is why I had to recheck the info with photos and official statements.

The flag you have shared seems to be the pre-19th century choice. It is also sometimes used by modern Ottoman military bands. Don't know about the historical ones. Somehow I failed to notice the flag in the WW1 scenario.

 

[sman1975]

Pro-Ottomans? Is that a thing? I'm not trying to be funny, it's just I've never heard of them, and I'm fairly well-read on current events. I was wondering how much influence they might have in such a large, diverse country such as Turkey?

Yeah, Wiki. I have kind of a "love/hate" opinion of them (or perhaps it's more "mild liking/mild distrusting" opinion). I've used them frequently to fill out Civilopedia entries for my units, buildings, etc., and it's saved me a great deal of time. My hate/distrust comes when you're reading something and thinking, "man, this just doesn't sound right." I've made a few mistakes on a few things simply because I didn't double-check entries with another source.

But, as you've seen, when it comes to modding, often we get the mod to the "good enough" level of quality, get sick of working on it, and simply publish and move on. The WW2 scenario is a good example. It took me, part-time, on/off, about 4+ months to publish, and I was sooooooo sick of looking at it, I took about a 6 month break from modding entirely. Even during the latest update, towards the end, I was starting to feel the same way. I mean, it's odd, but the subject I might be most interested in history (as with a lot of players) is the one I least enjoy working.

I keep a master file of changes for all my mods. Basically a list of things that need fixing, based on all the feedback I've received or things I've noticed while playing. When the list gets long enough, or a really big bug is discovered, that's when I decide to update the mod. Unfortunately, I've published quite a few mods, and the list is long - which is slowing down my working on new projects that interest me. Just not enough hours in the day.

I bring this up for one reason: to say "thanks!" for all your help in improving the WW2 mod (and eventually the WW1, WW2OAM, and even the Main WAW mods). These collaborations greatly improve the quality of the mod, as well as finding new things that should be added or other things that should be removed. I usually don't get such a strong series of feedback, usually it's just, "Your mod is broke!" replies, which aren't exactly helpful. In several of my mods on my list, the list has grown as a result of your suggestions, but the changes have focused on making the mods more accurate, historically, something I've worked very hard on since I started modding.

 

[jeriko one]

I totally agree with getting sick of a project. I'm an aspiring academic, so there are long and short term projects. I have to admit that sometimes I present half-baked ideas in my projects then return to them and improve them... The bright side of the whole deal is that the effort you show while getting sick of a project helps you in future projects. I am sure that that will be the case for you. As I indicated in my first ever feedback, I enjoyed your work very much, and now I am sure that work will get better and better. I am happy to be a part of the updating project, so you are very welcome It has been a pleasure for me. Moreover, I am always available to help you out with anything Turkey... which brings the subject to the pro-Ottoman thing. There is a big part of the population that yearns for those days. Actually, they are not even sure which part of the Ottoman history they like most. In essence, the parties in the current coalition government both praise the Ottomans as "ancestors" and conduct their politics accordingly. The smaller partner (MHP) in the coalition has a flag that is basically the red version of the green three-crescented flag you shared two days ago... The culture is diverse, but the people are polarised right now.

I think that this video will give you a sense of the whole thing. This is the morning news show on the premier pro-government news channel in Turkey. As you can see, the guy is talking about an Ottoman cannon. He says that unlike what the opposition says, the Ottomans had a well-established arms industry. The Mehter music is not a late addition, it's part of the show

 

[sman1975]

OK. I'm finishing up my latest project - the Combat Power Projection System. One of my first mods using LUA (and man is it hard to review my own code from those early days! ). I am not getting to the WW1 scenario yet, as I need to fix Main WAW with many of the things we've been discussion (which will require an update to the Unique Units). That's the problem with having a "family" of inter-locking/connecting mods. A change in one often necessitates a change in the other. But, the changes I have planned for Main WAW will take a few days to write.

I need a break from all things WAW, so I'll probably work on a project a player requested some time ago, a unit pack that replaces normal game units for Aztec and Mexican civs - giving them a nice customized feel. Those kinds of mods don't take long, but often the collaboration does (question from me: do you like this unit? answer from requestor 3 days later: I guess it's OK. Repeat....) Nothing complicated, but the time lag is quite annoying. It's one of the things I've definitely appreciated about your comments and suggestions being so responsive. I don't have to hold up development waiting on feedback.

So, hopefully, I'll be back on the Main WAW/UU/WW1, and WW2 On Any Map mods sometime in the middle of the week.

 

[jeriko one]

Great to hear that projects are moving forward and there are other projects on the horizon. It is always good to be inspired by something and someone and pursue that project. I can sympathise with the interlocking mods and going back to your older work. I only worked on one project (no coding) in an old game called Sensible World of Soccer, and it was always a drag dealing with minute interlocking files...

Concerning the Aztec and Mexican civs, the project sounds superb! I have a thing for the Aztecs and Mexican history, so definitely looking forward to it. Hopefully, it will be a fast-advancing project.

 

[jeriko one]

Very late p.s. I have just noticed your Second Punic War project, subscribed to it. Needless to say, I would love to contribute with ideas...

 

[sman1975]

You've very welcome to join in. It might be a week or so before I begin working on it in earnest. The person who suggested the mod posts infrequently, so it takes longer to make some progress.

We're starting with the 2nd Punic War, but I'm writing the code so that it will be quite easy to add the 1st and 3rd as well - if there's any real need to. The mod will be a large one - on the scale of the WW2 scenario, but with a "legal" sized map, so hopefully it will be more stable. I need to add a few custom civs, with artwork, and that always takes the longest time for me, as I have absolutely no talent for art. The scenario management engine (SME) will look a great deal like the WW2 On Any Map mod. This is intentional, as I'm working with each project to get the code to the point where it's quite easy to write a fairly-sophisticated SME that's transportable - meaning I can copy the code to a new project, and with very few changes, tailor it to the new scenario.

The original WW2 scenario was the first attempt at a truly transportable SME. Unfortunately, it simply bogged down under all the weight of some fairly efficient but over-scoped code. The WW2OAM was my attempt to reboot the project, down-scale the scope of the SME, and remove many of the things that only slightly impacted the game. It's a design philosophy that is jokingly called, "Go big, or go home!" It means, if your mod feature doesn't noticeably change the player experience, it doesn't need to be in the mod. I didn't follow that 100% of the time, but even a 50% adherence to that converted the original WW2 scenario SME into an efficient, much more transportable code.

A long way of saying you'd be more than welcome to join that project. The person who suggested the mod has recommended extending the map to (what is now) Damascus, or even a bit further east, and north enough to near Crimea. As you're a solid expert on that HALF of the map (I know, even more, but my point is...), you'd be quite helpful in helping me decide what "cities" will be playable civs, what will be city states, and getting the "diplomacy" right between them. I personally would have cropped the map somewhere a tile or two east of Athens, as I'm not tooooooo sure how much the civs east of that directly impacted the 2nd Punic War (remember, "Go big or go home!" - if they don't add at least a modicum of historical reality to the mod, then should they be in?).

Will let you know when we are officially starting the mod. I'm finishing up a "Aztec Unit Pack" mod, requested by a Steam player who requested the mod, but so far hasn't yet responded to any of my requests for information. After that, I have about a day of work on the Main WAW mod (adding the updated Turkish and Greek names and a few changes like), which will require a hotfix to the Unique Units mod. The main reason is that I'm adding a 80% "city penalty" that applies when a unit attacks a city. I'm adding that promotion to all naval melee and air defense units. Currently, in Main WAW, et al, they can't attack cities (and air defense can't attack at all), but the game engine still thinks they can, so maneuvers them into position to attack, and they sit there until they're killed. Am still thinking about only applying this new promotion for Industrial Era ships and later, and let melee ships still attack at full strength in earlier Eras. And so on....

After the Aztec pack is done, and the WAW mods are updated, I'll start working on the Punic War(s). Maybe a week, maybe two. Depends on free time. Last week, there was almost none, but hopefully, this improves quickly.

Appreciate the offer to help. Will definitely make the future mod better!

 

[jeriko one]

Thanks for laying out your current projects and the phases they are in. In addition to this, thanks for the kind words!! When you are working on other projects, I will think about possible answers to the questions you have posed and re-read some of the comments in the 2nd Punic War thread.

I absolutely agree with the motto "Go big, or go home!". Otherwise, it will just be a new Civ 5 playthrough with somehow-different rules and some UAs/UUs. Even if they do not add a modicum of reality, I think that the addition of state-cities and the "Successor Kingdoms" will lead to a more "alternative history"-friendly outlook. In our previous exchanges, you said that the mods entail alternative history, so it would be interesting to see how the trade with the city-states and the "Successor Kingdoms" could affect the course of the war and its outcome. Would the "Greek" city-states come to the aid of Syracuse (a former colony)? What would happen if it remains a thorn in the Roman Republic's back? etc. Of course, in order to achieve that the trade and diplomacy aspects of the mod should be re-imagined.

Looking forward to contributing to the project!!

 

[sman1975]

Of course, in order to achieve that the trade and diplomacy aspects of the mod should be re-imagined.

This is one of those areas that your understanding of the eastern half of the map (probably the western half, too ) would be greatly appreciated. It's just not anything I've studied much in the past, and what I did study, I don't remember too well - the successor kingdoms to Alexander's empire. IF they're going to be included in the scenario, designing them right will be a big challenge: there's plenty of information about the Romans, a bit less about Carthage. Heck, even the Iberians and Gauls aren't too hard to research. But, once we get into Illyria, Thrace, or all of Anatolia, things get a lot harder to research easily, and getting information on the relationships/interactions between these smaller kingdoms and city states is a pain.

A second, smaller problem: the 2nd Punic War lasted 18 years. I'm not sure, but did the map change in that time? Also, if we decide to add the 1st or 3rd Punic Wars as a playable Scenario, the entire problem set appears again. But that's a discussion for another day.

Appreciate the offer of help. Most of collaborators a quite enthusiastic at suggesting things, and a little help at the early stages of the project. But once the actual "work" begins, they become hard to find, and I'm left working alone on a project that someone else wanted.

Will let you know when I'm ready to start on this one. Hopefully late in the week, or next week at the latest.

 

[sman1975]

Hello! I've posted updates to both the Main World at War mod, as well as the Unique Units companion mod. Steam Links:

WAW: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1562440077

Unique Units: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1562535329


======================================================================================================================================================

Main World at War Mod Summary of Changes (V5, Hotfix 3): This hotfix was primarily a “harmonization” of various settings between this mod and the Unique Units, WW2 Civ Pack, and WW2 Scenario On Any Map mods. Cleaning up unit definitions and other technical issues which sometimes caused odd behavior in various mod combinations (e.g. if Main WAW and the WW2 Civ Pack were enabled, aircraft units from the Civ Pack mod could not attack cities. Playing the Civ Pack alone, they could.).

Specific Changes:

- Added a "City State relationship drops" to the “Enhanced Diplomatic Reaction to Nuke Attack" script. Now when using nukes, city states will lower their relationship to the attacking civ.

- Added a ranged horse unit in the Classical and Medieval Era. These are now part of a new scout upgrade path.
This path is now Scout (Ancient) > Scythian bowman (Classical @Construction) > Mounted Crossbowman (Medieval @Machinery) > Lancer (Renaissance @ Metallurgy) > Cavalry (Industrial/BE @Mil Science) > Armored Car (Modern/Great War @Motorized Logisitics)

- Added route increases in the Route_TechMovementChanges tables for certain techs in the tree: faster road movement at Industrialization, Precision Engineering, and Manufacturing. Faster rail movement at Motorized Logistics, Combustion, Mechanization, Combined Arms, Ops Research, Full Spectrum Warfare, Polymer Science, and Supply Chain Management. The improvement in rail movement will be quite noticeable with armor units as the game progresses - as it was historically.

- Added @whoward69 's “Tech - Satellites Reveal Cities” – which reveals units around cities after the “Keyhole” project is completed, which makes for a very interesting late-game twist.

- New function adjusts strategic amounts on the map at game start, similar to the SMAN’s WW2 Scenario On Any Map scenario. This creates unusual near-monopolies and bare areas all across the map - which will definitely impact military strategy to obtain rares resources, and make civs with a glut of those resources able to leverage that abundance accordingly. While, the mod adjusts the amount found in a tile, it doesn’t add/remove strategic resources to any additional tiles.

- Added a “Severe City Penalty” to melee ship units of all kinds. All melee ships now have a 90% penalty when attacking cities. They can still capture cities, but will need assistance to actually reduce city defenses.

- Added a test inside the VP compatibility script, which prevents it from injecting an error into the database log when VP is not enabled.

- Added a minor nerf to the Warmonger penalty settings. AI civs will factor warmonger stats a bit more than before, making them more reactive in warmonger situations.

- Added Greece to the Unit Namer Script, allowing them to receive custom, civ-specific names for their units.

- Adjusted many entries in the Ottoman tables in the Unit Namer Script, to provide a more historically-accurate set of names for the Ottomans.

- Added 10 Roman and 5 Ottoman custom civs to the Unit Namer Script.

- Removed the references to WW2 Civ Pack and WW2 On Any Map mods, placing the references into those mods, so that the Main WAW mod would execute first.

- Hid the notification buildings from Civilopedia, so these “dummy” buildings don’t appear in that feature.

- Made several adjustments inside the unit definition tables, correcting minor problems in many unit definitions. Units now look/act more like “normal” units of their type, and should behave more stably. *


* Technical Changes: Here is a list of specific adjustments made to units:

- Ensured all IFV’s were categorized as UNITCOMBAT_GUN, not armor.
- Ensured all “Paratrooper” type units (incl. later paradrop units) only used UNITAI_PARADROP.
- Added UNITAI_MISSILE_CARRIER_SEA to all ships/subs that can carry missiles.
- Added FLAVOR_NUKE to ships/subs that can carry nukes.
- Ensured fighters have UNITAI_DEFENSE_AIR as default.
- Ensured all NAVAL_MELEE units had IgnoreBuildingDefense set on.
- Changed ArtDefines (Weapons) for all Fighers and Dive bombers to make sure they only used 2 attack animations, and not 3.
- Ensured Art Defines Unit Infos contained the FighterWing formation for all fighter units.


======================================================================================================================================================


World at War - Unique Units Summary of Changes (V5, Hotfix 2): This hotfix was primarily a “harmonization” of various settings between this mod and the Main WAW , WW2 Civ Pack, and WW2 Scenario On Any Map mods. Cleaning up unit definitions and other technical issues which sometimes caused odd behavior in various mod combinations (e.g. if Main WAW and the WW2 Civ Pack were enabled, aircraft units from the Civ Pack mod could not attack cities. Playing the Civ Pack alone, they could.).

Specific Changes:

- The Main WAW mod added a “Severe City Penalty” to melee ship units of all kinds. All melee ships now have a 90% penalty when attacking cities. They can still capture cities, but will need assistance to actually reduce city defenses. Unique Units that are Naval Melee ships will also get this promotion.

- Added a German marine replacement unit.

- Changed the Turkish/Ottoman font icon to the flag of Turkey.

- Added new 20 units from the WW2 Civilizations Pack to correct an unfixable-bug, related to the common “mod load order problem.”

- Fixed an incorrect icon for the German Heavy Tank unit.

- Added 48 unique unit icons (44 drawn by me).

- Made several adjustments inside the unit definition tables, correcting minor problems in many unit definitions. Units now look/act more like “normal” units of their type, and should behave more stably. *


* Technical Changes: Here is a list of specific adjustments made to units:

- Ensured all IFV’s were categorized as UNITCOMBAT_GUN, not armor.
- Ensured all “Paratrooper” type units (incl. later paradrop units) only used UNITAI_PARADROP.
- Added UNITAI_MISSILE_CARRIER_SEA to all ships/subs that can carry missiles.
- Added FLAVOR_NUKE to ships/subs that can carry nukes.
- Ensured fighters have UNITAI_DEFENSE_AIR as default.
- Ensured all NAVAL_MELEE units had IgnoreBuildingDefense set on.
- Changed ArtDefines (Weapons) for all Fighers and Dive bombers to make sure they only used 2 attack animations, and not 3.
- Ensured Art Defines Unit Infos contained the FighterWing formation for all fighter units.


New unit icons:

 

[askmarcoanything]

Hi SMAN

We were having a conversation about the unit namer on the steam page, specifically naming the older era units. I was thinking that maybe the unit namer could be further expanded (although i feel bad asking about it since you've done such a fantastic job overall). A lot of the forthcoming inspiration will be coming from the Contextual Unit Names mod.

Note that this should only apply to the Ground and Air units, i feel that your naval unit naming system is perfect.

I feel that a name of the unit should have 3 main parts
A. Number B. Unit Name C. Location

A.
There should be 3 choices for how the game assigns a unit number. It should iterate per unit type built throughout civ (how it is now), per unit type built by city, or by global ground/air unit.

B.
As mentioned in our previous conversation, i feel that unit names could be extended further into the past aka ancient era. As such i would recommend that the following units be named as such:

Scout Units - Reconnaissance Squad

Non-Gunpowder Melee - Guards/Foot Guards (Regiment)

Non-Gunpowder Ranged - Ranged (Company/Division?)

(I guess it technically works, earlier in the game its a ranged unit, when it upgrades to an armoured unit it technical now has an increased range to move, and by the time it becomes Railgun Armoured, it becomes a ranged unit once again)

Mounted - Horse Guards (Regiment)

C.
As an addition to highlight the units origins, i think it would be appropriate to add an option to choose of which name would choose to take.
City
Civilization (E.g England)
Civilization Short Name (E.g English)
Civilization Leader (E.g Elizabeth)

Further, similar to the Lord Mayor mod, the unit namer should have a menu pop out that can allow the customization of name placement. For Example:

A B C (19th Horse Guard London)

A C B (1st English Foot Guard)

It maybe necessary to introduce certain grammatical items as options in between the three positions:
"(Blank)"
" 's "
" of "

C A B (Elizabeth's 9th Reconnaissance Squad)

A B C (18th Ranged Company of England)

I wonder too if you could add an option for partisan/militia units to follow this naming regime if desired.

Finally, I think it would be helpful if there could be custom templates in the LUA that can allow for Modded civilizations to take advantage of custom unit names.

Thank you for reading my suggestion, i would understand if it would not be taken but i feel that it would add better aesthetic immersion to the units in game.

 

[sman1975]

The problem I'm facing, @askmarcoanything, is that I'll need to duplicate the naming efforts in both the AWAW and WAW mods. This complicates things in LUA, but is manageable. It's basically the same code, but some care needs to be taken in the "event management" part. This will probably require an update to WAW to help avoid overlapping game events (i.e. when a unit is created). It also has the probability of delaying AWAW release (as I want to make sure the code works and plays well in both AWAW and WAW), something I hate doing, as several of my collaborators are quite ready to take AWAW out and kick the tires a bit. But, as I'm still screwing around with trying to get the "calendar problem" fixed, AWAW isn't yet ready for prime time. The calendar problem is getting the date at the top of the screen to resemble anything close to historical norms. It's working OK on Standard speed, but I'm still testing the Epic version (and haven't started testing a Quick or Marathon, or even the "mega-mod" - AWAW + WAW version at any speed).

So.... I think this means I have a bit of time to work on the AWAW namer while the test games are auto-running in the background. Unfortunately...

Now, back to the problem at hand. I honestly believe there probably needs to be 2 different naming conventions - one for Ancient and Classical Eras, and another for Medieval to Renaissance/Enlightenment Eras. The gaps are just too large. Calling a melee unit the "XXI Legion" or "Legio XXI" in the Renaissance will harm the immersive qualities the namer script is trying to expand.

I don't think the Civ adjective should be used in the unit names, as if you look at the unit tooltip on the map (hovering the mouse over the unit), the adjective is already there. So, adding the adjective would see the same word appear twice in the tool tip, which doesn't look good at all. I do see some advantage of adding the city of creation in certain instances.

The term "Guards" in most historical contexts was applied to a unit that performed some kind of heroic feats, or was assigned to actually guard something important, usually the sovereign. It would not have been given to every unit in the army. I could see adding the word "Royal" in front of Cuirassier (Renaissance) or Cavalry (Enlightenment) for horse units trained in the capital of a country, and the word "Guards" at the end of Arquebusier (REN) or Foot Infantry (ENL) unit names for units also trained in the capital.

I've taken a bit of time to put together my starting design of the naming conventions for AWAW. I've attached a snapshop of it in the AWAW collaboration space, since that is where the namer will initially be added/tested. Please feel free and take a look:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...world-at-war-awaw.664974/page-6#post-16037070

Thanks!

 

[sman1975]

After a long break, I'm starting to look at WAW again to add some of the things being discussed here and other places. As a starting place, here is a spreadsheet containing the unit upgrade paths as they currently exist in V5. It will be frequently updated to help better flesh out late CW and FW eras.

A snapshot of the .xlsx file is here:




If you'd like to join the discussion on Discord, please join us: https://discord.com/channels/361641784696373248/783755251088883722

 

[KryptonianEmperor]

Hello everyone,

After a lot of discussions with SMAN on Discord, I wanted to put a first batch of several lists I made concerning our many thoughts, ideas and suggestions for the future versions of World At War. Being myself a big fan of the mod, it's only natural to me to try to be a helping aid in the community (and also being a Dev IRL helps ) .
Keep in mind that these are only suggestions/ideas, and the goal here is to publish these lists so that anyone can come here and discuss it further with us. I myself believe that the charm of WAW is its variety and massive amount of content.
Having played quite a lot of games myself, especially in the later eras ( WW2, Cold War and Future Era ) , I believe that there's still so much potential to enhance the mod, especially with new units for these eras.
So we've discussed quite a lot of about several aspects, possibilities and new units to be implemented into the mod on Discord. I've made these several lists to be able to keep track of everything so far. Also, I've played around a bit with the code already, doing several little tweaks here and there, that I think are relevant and even necessary in some cases.
So without further ado, let's get going.
I'll start with the list of changes I've made on my local end of the mod ( I must say, after several games of testing against Deity AIs, I'm quite happy with these changes, and I would say that some were actually quite necessary in terms of balance/gameplay wise).

Local changes :

Unit changes :
- Buff Reaper Drone's unit ranged combat to 100
- Buff Private Mil Contractors unit from 80 strength to 90
- Buff BlackOps unit from 85 strength to 90
- Buff Missile Destroyer unit from 95 melee strength to 100
- Automation unit doesn't require Transparent Aluminium anymore
- Nerf Self Propelled Artillery unit movement from 6 to 4
- Strategic Bomber now requires the Bomber Factory to be built
- Wild Weasel now requires the Fighter Factory to be built

Unit switch :
- Move Blackops unit from Artificial Intelligence to Globalization
- Move Superheavy ICBM from Artificial Intelligence to Nuclear Fusion
- Move 5th Gen fighter from Digital Revolution to Stealth
- Move Nuclear Cruise Missile from Digital Revolution to Nuclear Fusion
- Move Stealth Fighter from Stealth to Manned Spaceflight
- Move Reaper Drone from Biotechnology to Stealth
- Move Predator Drone from Composite Materials to Lasers or Robotics
- Move Advanced Armor from Composite Materials to Particle Physics ( to debate, the goal was to move it further up but i wasn't exactly sure to which technology )
- Move MOAB from Television to Advanced Ballistics
- Move CAS Helicopter from Robotics to Composite Materials
- Move Missile Destroyer from Nanotech to Lasers ( to debate )
- Move Nuclear Cruise Missile from Digital Revolution to Advanced Ballistics ( several tier of this unit could theoretically be added )
- Move Private Military Contractors from Supply Chain Management to Globalization
- Move Biotrooper from Hyperstructures to Genetic Biomodification

Building switch :
- Move Center for Disease Control from Biotechnology to Globalization
- Move Wind Farm from Artificial Intelligence to Telecommunications or Ecology ( to debate )
- Move Genetics Lab from Genetic Biomodification to Nanotechnology
- Move Biofactory from Genetic Biomodification to Nanotechnology
- Move Particle Accelerator from Plasma Production to Particle Physics
- Move Nuclear Weapons Factory from Mobile Tactics to Advanced Ballistics
- Move Advanced Warfare Center from Nuclear Fusion to Globalization ( to debate )
- Move Move Polar Station from Supply Chain Management to Telecommunications
- Move Art Gallery from Supply Chain Management to Television
- Move Casino from Supply Chain Management to Televsion
- Move Automated Manufactoring Plant from Digital Revolution to Supply Chain Management
- Only 5 Nuclear Weapons Factories can now be built

- Fixed a typo in Photonic Integrated Circuits technology description string

Now, I'll continue with the lists of ideas that I mentioned earlier.

Bugs that I noticed so far :
- Railgun armor can't melee attack/capture cities, it has a ranged attack ( not sure if intended or not, but i believe that this unit should be melee only )
- Nuclear missile upgrades into Superheavy nuke but doesn't disappears when upgraded
- Several stuck animations remaining, notably Rocket Launcher, will have to do an extensive list later

Overall Mod Enhancement :

- Having overall less buildings that produce resources (especially Aluminium)
- Add " fast aircraft animations " enhancement to every WAW air unit (this would possibly be quite big work as i'm not too familiar with how this works, so this is only a suggestion)
- The early stage of the WW2 era could I believe reflect the feel of the late 20s and early 30s better. ( More cultural/economic/happiness buildings, or even National Wonders ? Or any new original concepts for it)
- Implementation of a significant overhaul of the entire Nuclear Weapons system (WMDs). We've discussed this quite a lot, with mentions of enhancing the existing (amazing) AI nuke system implemented by SMAN, and even possibly adding completely new WMDs type of units to allow for a better gameplay. This should probably be a main subject of discussion.
- Implementation of a significant overhaul of the Guided Missile system/logic. We've discussed the possibility of also adding a new type of unit, with several variants of the guided missiles (for example, an anti-ship one) ; also, we thought of the possibility of adding a " building destruction " logic to the guided missiles. This should also be a main subject of discussion.

Ideas for Unit Changes :

- Modern Armor and MBTs - and a lot of other units that we could list later - should not become obsolete before a long time
- Move XCOM Squad unit from Atomic Manipulation to Energy Weapons
- Make Flak anti air gun obsolete at Rocketry
- Robot Infantry receives the Apocalypse promotion
- Power Armor Infantry is locked behind either a building ( and resources maybe ? ) or a National Wonder, Mechanized infantry upgrades rather into the hypothetical Advanced Mechanized Infantry unit
- Artillery upgrades into self propelled artillery rather than Rocket Launcher.
- The Special Forces could be made Amphibious, since there isn't an upgrade for the Marine unit in the Cold War era.


And now, for the topic that I think we need to discuss the most.
For the record, as discussed with SMAN, the goal is to try to make the Cold War and Future War eras as realistic as possible, compared to our world and how warfare is evolving today.

Units to Add :

WW2 era :
- Add existing V1 guided missile to the game

Cold War era :
- Add an " Heavy Rocket Launcher " unit. Main inspiration for it being the MLRS rocket launchers. Note : " Artillery " unit model from CJ's More than a Future mod fits perfectly for this.
- Add a " Modern Infantry " unit - unlocked at Mobile Tactics - , the Infantry upgrades into it (requires no resources, rather easy to produce)
- Add a " Modern Bazooka " unit - unlocked at Mobile Tactics - , the Bazooka upgrades into it (requires no resources)
- Add the already Existing Advanced Strategic Bomber (special unit for America) globally in the mod. The strategic bomber upgrades into it.
- Add an " Advanced Mobile SAM " unit in the late Cold War era
- Add an " Advanced Self Propelled Artillery " unit in the late Cold War era. The self propelled artillery upgrades into it.
- Add a Tier 3 Nuclear Submarine in the late Cold War. The Nuclear Submarine upgrades into it.
- Add several new guided missiles units, with different types, like the Anti ship missiles.
- Add possibly several new nuke units, for example a tier 2 Atomic Bomb, could be a hydrogen or thermonuclear bomb. Also maybe another ICBM unit. (as mentioned, to debate further)

- A building called " Military Research Center " could I think be added in the Cold War era. It could be required to unlock several powerful units. (to debate)

Future War era :
- Add a mighty " Air Carrier " unit in the early/middle Future War era. This concept has been largely discussed with SMAN already on Discord. Will post more info on that unit later.
- Add an " Advanced Nuke " unit for the Future War era. Maybe a Cobalt bomb, or something similar. (to discuss further obviously)
- Add a 6th Gen fighter , early Future Era fighter unit
- Add a Future Era Fighter unit before the Plasma Fighter, the 6th Gen fighter upgrades into it
- Add a Bomber Unit in the early Future War after the Advanced Strategic bomber and the stealth bomber. Could possibly be a " advanced stealth bomber " ? Upgrades into the Suborbital bomber.
- Add Advanced Mechanized Infantry unit in the early Future War era (I believe this is a must-add unit, considering how essential mechanized infantry will remain for quite some time)
- Add a basic Infantry unit for the Future War era. The " Modern Infantry " upgrades into it. Note : Several infantry units of CJ's mods fit perfectly for this unit, namely : The " Marine ", the " Sentinel " and the " Centurion ".
- Add a " Biotrooper Bazooka " unit. The Modern Bazooka could either upgrade into it or into another unit. (to debate further)
- Add a ranged, Drone unit in the early Future War era. It could receive promotions against armored units. The Reaper Drone upgrades into it.
- Add an early Future War submarine unit, before the Cybersub.
- Add an early Future War era Destroyer unit, before the Railgun destroyer. It could be called the " Laser Destroyer " .
- Add an early Future War Cruiser naval unit. It could be an Advanced Missile Cruiser, before the Railgun Cruiser.

Wonders to Add :

I believe a few wonders could be added in the Future Era. I don't have specific ideas for now tho.
- Manhattan Project, I think an healthy change could be to make it much harder to build it, so that not every Civ is able to research it automatically when reaching the WW2 era.
- Apollo Program, we could add the existing Apollo Program wonder mod into WAW. The mod makes Apollo Program give a free technology and some yields like a normal wonder, and the player has to build " Project Longshot " to be able to build spaceship parts.

That's it for today folks. I technically have more ideas and thoughts for later, but we can continue later, and first elaborate on what i just posted (yes that's a lot already ). Obviously some things will be kept, some others disgarded, and some others maybe modified to fit into the mod better. Anyway, i'm looking forward to some feedback on all this, and also on the incoming discussions about it!
Cheers, Kryptonian Emperor

 

[sman1975]

Current, rough draft of unit upgrade paths in V6:

 

[sman1975]

KE - here are my initial thoughts on your suggestions. There is much here that is good, and much that needs more examination.

I highlighted in green the ideas I agree with, in red the ones I disagree with, and in yellow for the ideas I'm not sure about.

Unit changes :
- Buff Reaper Drone's unit ranged combat to 100
- Buff Private Mil Contractors unit from 80 strength to 90
- Buff BlackOps unit from 85 strength to 90
- Buff Missile Destroyer unit from 95 melee strength to 100
- Automation unit doesn't require Transparent Aluminium anymore - What limits spam? Uranium? Simple "limit 5 per civ"?
- Nerf Self Propelled Artillery unit movement from 6 to 4
- Strategic Bomber now requires the Bomber Factory to be built
- Wild Weasel now requires the Fighter Factory to be built

Unit switch :
- Move Blackops unit from Artificial Intelligence to Globalization
- Move Superheavy ICBM from Artificial Intelligence to Nuclear Fusion - Prefer add a "Binary Chemical Missile" unit in this column of the tree. Trying to add a new WMD capability to every column from nuclear missile to future techs columns
- Move 5th Gen fighter from Digital Revolution to Stealth - 5th gen has to come after stealth. it would be better to delete stealth fighter and put 5th gen in its place.
- Move Nuclear Cruise Missile from Digital Revolution to Nuclear Fusion
- Move Stealth Fighter from Stealth to Manned Spaceflight
- Move Reaper Drone from Biotechnology to Stealth
- Move Predator Drone from Composite Materials to Lasers or Robotics
- Move Advanced Armor from Composite Materials to Particle Physics ( to debate, the goal was to move it further up but i wasn't exactly sure to which technology )
- Move MOAB from Television to Advanced Ballistics - and move the Guided Missile to Supply Chain Management
- Move CAS Helicopter from Robotics to Composite Materials
- Move Missile Destroyer from Nanotech to Lasers ( to debate ) - I can see a move to CW4 (Composites, Supply Chain), Lasers too early, doesn't give Aegis the shelf life we've seen it enjoy historically
- Move Nuclear Cruise Missile from Digital Revolution to Advanced Ballistics ( several tier of this unit could theoretically be added ) - I can see a move to Manned Spaceflight (CW4), but not earlier. Not convinced adding newer nuke cruise missiles adds anything
- Move Private Military Contractors from Supply Chain Management to Globalization - PMCs and Supply Chains are inextricably linked in my mind. I'd rather add "Advanced Mech infantry" to serve as the late CW era melee unit
- Move Biotrooper from Hyperstructures to Genetic Biomodification - Biotrooper is the final unit a civ can train if if has no resources. If it appears at FW3, one of the previous units needs to drop out (e.g. PowerArmor or Battlesuit).

Building switch :
- Move Center for Disease Control from Biotechnology to Globalization
- Move Wind Farm from Artificial Intelligence to Telecommunications or Ecology ( to debate )
- Move Genetics Lab from Genetic Biomodification to Nanotechnology - Gen Lab belongs late in Tech Tree as it represent the industrialization of gen modification. The gen mod actions taking place during nanotech are school science fair quality in comparison.
- Move Biofactory from Genetic Biomodification to Nanotechnology - same rationale as Gen Lab
- Move Particle Accelerator from Plasma Production to Particle Physics - similar to Gen Lab - "Particle Physics" focuses on the theoretical. the particle accelerator represents the mainstream incorporation
- Move Nuclear Weapons Factory from Mobile Tactics to Advanced Ballistics
- Move Advanced Warfare Center from Nuclear Fusion to Globalization ( to debate ) - IIRC the AWC is at NucFusion simply because nothing else appears there on the tech tree - no other buildings/units/capabilities are present - looks wrong
- Move Move Polar Station from Supply Chain Management to Telecommunications
- Move Art Gallery from Supply Chain Management to Television
- Move Casino from Supply Chain Management to Televsion
- Move Automated Manufactoring Plant from Digital Revolution to Supply Chain Management
- Only 5 Nuclear Weapons Factories can now be built

- Fixed a typo in Photonic Integrated Circuits technology description string

Now, I'll continue with the lists of ideas that I mentioned earlier.

Bugs that I noticed so far :
- Railgun armor can't melee attack/capture cities, it has a ranged attack ( not sure if intended or not, but i believe that this unit should be melee only ) - with both attack types, it can be tricky. You have to click on the crossed-swords before starting the attack. IIRC this usually works. When this happens with ships, it's really a coin-toss whether that works or not. But the point is a good one. I'd rather give Railgun Armor a missile carry to represent range capability than what is going on now.
- Nuclear missile upgrades into Superheavy nuke but doesn't disappears when upgraded - will have to test this. the upgrade path is set correctly. if this occurred, it's one of those "the error is shown here, but the actual problem is unrelated in a completely different part of the mod" problems.
- Several stuck animations remaining, notably Rocket Launcher, will have to do an extensive list later - will check into this. Many of these old models (from @danrell's admirable work) have a few bugs in them. The attack animation definitions don't match the model perfectly. Sometimes a bear to fix, sometimes can't be fixed at all, so using a different model is the only solution.

Overall Mod Enhancement :

- Having overall less buildings that produce resources (especially Aluminium) - alu is about to become even more valuable/usable - if we add the Titanium Mill for example. These buildings help map-poor civs stay alive late game
- Add " fast aircraft animations " enhancement to every WAW air unit (this would possibly be quite big work as i'm not too familiar with how this works, so this is only a suggestion) - it's a trivial fix, single DB entry per unit. WAW already cuts all a/c attack animations in half. if there's a specific unit, let me know
- The early stage of the WW2 era could I believe reflect the feel of the late 20s and early 30s better. ( More cultural/economic/happiness buildings, or even National Wonders ? Or any new original concepts for it) - on earth it was during the Great Depression, which honestly probably would not have happened without WW1. They are also tied together. And WW1 seems to be the culmination of the colonial periods of great empires, so it could be expected on any replaying of history. Ultimately, I'm not sure what's being suggested here?
- Implementation of a significant overhaul of the entire Nuclear Weapons system (WMDs). We've discussed this quite a lot, with mentions of enhancing the existing (amazing) AI nuke system implemented by SMAN, and even possibly adding completely new WMDs type of units to allow for a better gameplay. This should probably be a main subject of discussion. - This will be one of the main new features of WAW V6.
- Implementation of a significant overhaul of the Guided Missile system/logic. We've discussed the possibility of also adding a new type of unit, with several variants of the guided missiles (for example, an anti-ship one) ; also, we thought of the possibility of adding a " building destruction " logic to the guided missiles. This should also be a main subject of discussion. - This and the previous point go hand in hand. I see all missiles on the same continuum, the only difference is capabilities/costs/reactions.

Ideas for Unit Changes :

- Modern Armor and MBTs - and a lot of other units that we could list later - should not become obsolete before a long time - agreed. It's tied to "Subdomain" on the spreadsheet, which basically corresponds to the unit's combat role. Intent is to have each role represented almost during the entire game. Obviously, there will be issues with this. But highly-available prereq resources (oil, coal) should be tied to these long-lived units. The rare resources (TransAlu, Uranium, and Titanium) should be focused on late Era units.
- Move XCOM Squad unit from Atomic Manipulation to Energy Weapons - only if one of the previous melee units goes away (Power Armor or Battlesuit)
- Make Flak anti air gun obsolete at Rocketry - it's the last Anti-Air unit that can be built without resources. It's why it never obsoletes. Its replacement the Self-Propelled AA Gun requires Oil. Now Oil isn't really a rare resource, esp late game, so I have no problem obsoleting Flak at Rocketry or even Full Spec Warfare. This means a civ without oil at end game has no ability to protect itself from air attack. Perhaps this is OK. It means the last oil AA unit is the Laser Sam.
- Robot Infantry receives the Apocalypse promotion - it only has the Paradrop (9 tiles) and Motorized Inf (can use enemy roads) promotions in its definition. Since the Apocalypse promo cannot be selected, this is another of those "the bug here isn't a bug, but there is a bug somewhere in a completely unrelated area" errors. Heck, even an error in the Rocket Artillery's attack animation definitions could cause something like this.
- Power Armor Infantry is locked behind either a building ( and resources maybe ? ) or a National Wonder, Mechanized infantry upgrades rather into the hypothetical Advanced Mechanized Infantry unit - Am leaning towards the Adv Warfare Center gatekeep all melee units, and many of the others. Unit upgrades (either thru good huts or reaching prereq tech) will bypass any building requirement. Good huts will bypass any resource requirements, so you can go into deficit with them, but trying to upgrade w/o the resource is prevented. There are ways via LUA around this, but I'm not convinced we have a problem yet.
- Artillery upgrades into self propelled artillery rather than Rocket Launcher. - this is more historically accurate - well for every country except for the USSR
- The Special Forces could be made Amphibious, since there isn't an upgrade for the Marine unit in the Cold War era. - great idea, Black Ops too


And now, for the topic that I think we need to discuss the most.
For the record, as discussed with SMAN, the goal is to try to make the Cold War and Future War eras as realistic as possible, compared to our world and how warfare is evolving today.

Units to Add :

WW2 era :
- Add existing V1 guided missile to the game

Cold War era :
- Add an " Heavy Rocket Launcher " unit. Main inspiration for it being the MLRS rocket launchers. Note : " Artillery " unit model from CJ's More than a Future mod fits perfectly for this.
- Add a " Modern Infantry " unit - unlocked at Mobile Tactics - , the Infantry upgrades into it (requires no resources, rather easy to produce) - I can see adding Mod Inf at Television (normal Infantry upgrades to this unit), obsolete at Supply Chains. So, you can produce infantry up until you can hire PMCs
- Add a " Modern Bazooka " unit - unlocked at Mobile Tactics - , the Bazooka upgrades into it (requires no resources) - would rather it come in 1 column later (composites?) and be called something that reflects the Javelins, et al, we're actually seeing today
- Add the already Existing Advanced Strategic Bomber (special unit for America) globally in the mod. The strategic bomber upgrades into it. - the adv strat bomber represents the B-52. who else in the world has anything like it?
- Add an " Advanced Mobile SAM " unit in the late Cold War era - i just don't see the parallels on the ground about now. improvements over the past 20 years have been rather evolutionary, not revolutionary.
- Add an " Advanced Self Propelled Artillery " unit in the late Cold War era. The self propelled artillery upgrades into it. - Same rationale as the SAM. I do see a place for a HIMARS capability somewhere in CW5 (Nanotech/stealth)
- Add a Tier 3 Nuclear Submarine in the late Cold War. The Nuclear Submarine upgrades into it. - Subs have 2 missions: ballistic missile attacks, and killing other subs. So, we have ballistic missile subs and attack subs. The ballistic missile sub hasn't changed much in decades. On attack subs we go from the unit of that name to the nuclear sub then to the cyber sub in the distant future. I see the gap in the timeline, but i'm not sure i see any growth in capability that justifies adding a unit - i.e. what's the difference between a new more advanced unit and an older unit with 10 promotions?
- Add several new guided missiles units, with different types, like the Anti ship missiles. - it's on the list
- Add possibly several new nuke units, for example a tier 2 Atomic Bomb, could be a hydrogen or thermonuclear bomb. Also maybe another ICBM unit. (as mentioned, to debate further)

- A building called " Military Research Center " could I think be added in the Cold War era. It could be required to unlock several powerful units. (to debate) - if we're talking about late Era CW units, OK. But the building should appear in CW4 (Supply Chains?), as to give time to build it, as it's going to be expensive. Will necessitate a review of all unit role to make sure at least some combat capability remains if a civ doesn't have the MRC

Future War era :
- Add a mighty " Air Carrier " unit in the early/middle Future War era. This concept has been largely discussed with SMAN already on Discord. Will post more info on that unit later.
- Add an " Advanced Nuke " unit for the Future War era. Maybe a Cobalt bomb, or something similar. (to discuss further obviously)
- Add a 6th Gen fighter , early Future Era fighter unit
- Add a Future Era Fighter unit before the Plasma Fighter, the 6th Gen fighter upgrades into it - I can see the need, but am not sure about what the type of plane it will be
- Add a Bomber Unit in the early Future War after the Advanced Strategic bomber and the stealth bomber. Could possibly be a " advanced stealth bomber " ? Upgrades into the Suborbital bomber.
- Add Advanced Mechanized Infantry unit in the early Future War era (I believe this is a must-add unit, considering how essential mechanized infantry will remain for quite some time) - I think it';s OK to add, but it needs to appear at CW5
- Add a basic Infantry unit for the Future War era. The " Modern Infantry " upgrades into it. Note : Several infantry units of CJ's mods fit perfectly for this unit, namely : The " Marine ", the " Sentinel " and the " Centurion ". Best way around this is to keep the upgrade path: Infantry > Modern Infantry > Power Armor Infantry. The Adv. Warfare Center would be the gatekeeper for all subsequent infantry (e.g. Battlesuit or XCOM if Battlesuit is dropped).
- Add a " Biotrooper Bazooka " unit. The Modern Bazooka could either upgrade into it or into another unit. (to debate further) - Bazooka is a "specialist" unit. It phases out as regular infantry gets better at the anti-tank role. We might be needlessly prolonging a specialist unit's existence if we add some kind of "javelin" unit. I can (barely) see a need for an "Anti-Tank Missile Unit" but it really needs to stop when the CW era ends.
- Add a ranged, Drone unit in the early Future War era. It could receive promotions against armored units. The Reaper Drone upgrades into it. - I need to research to see what we call this. Some are speculating that Gen 6 fighters will include many, Gen 4-similar drones attached to each fighter. Sorry, that's a rabbit hole...
- Add an early Future War submarine unit, before the Cybersub. - See similar discussion on Tier 4 Nuke Sub. There is a need for something, I'm just not sure what it would be. And if added, the Cybersub would come in 1 column later (Atom manip)
- Add an early Future War era Destroyer unit, before the Railgun destroyer. It could be called the " Laser Destroyer " .
- Add an early Future War Cruiser naval unit. It could be an Advanced Missile Cruiser, before the Railgun Cruiser.

Wonders to Add :

I believe a few wonders could be added in the Future Era. I don't have specific ideas for now tho. - One wonder will be a prereq for building the Air Carrier, and perhaps the specialty aircraft it hosts
- Manhattan Project, I think an healthy change could be to make it much harder to build it, so that not every Civ is able to research it automatically when reaching the WW2 era. - can easily make the project more expensive. There aren't a lot of other ways to influence this. There is a table called "Project_ResourceQuantityRequirements" but it has no data (meaning it was legacy Civ4 design, or it was used by vanilla or G&K, but is no longer used). So, not sure if the game engine even observes what's going on with it or not.
- Apollo Program, we could add the existing Apollo Program wonder mod into WAW. The mod makes Apollo Program give a free technology and some yields like a normal wonder, and the player has to build " Project Longshot " to be able to build spaceship parts. - Will have to research this. I'm not up to date on project behavior and what does and doesn't work.

 

[sman1975]

It took a while, but I finally got it all working.

Specifically, I've added 3 new "Features" that mimic (albeit not perfectly) how Fallout works on the map. Requires a bit of DB+LUA to get working, but seems fairly stable. Well, considering how poorly the game engine treats map events that it wasn't specifically designed to manage.

Anyways, I've added 3 nominal effects:
1. Antimatter Decay (from the Antimatter Bomb)
2. Biohazards (from the Binary Chemical Weapon and Biohazard Bomb - both placeholder names)
3. Ionizing Radiation (from the Pure Fusion Bomb)

Intent is to have the new WMD/Missile Event Handler to place these effects on the map in the aftermath of the weapon successfully striking a target.

Workers will be able to scrub these areas like fallout - to remove:
1. Positron Emissions
2. Toxic Contamination
3. Electromagnetic Contamination

Additional stats TBD, but it works pretty well so far.

Some screenshots:

All 3 new effects:




Workers preparing to clean each effect:







Colors are just my first stab. Can always adjust color + saturation + brightness without any problems at all.


Currently, no production, gold, or food are possible on impacted tiles. Also, units receive 25 HP damage per turn in those squares. On slower speed games, cleaning them could be an interesting PITA....





After cleanup:

 

[sman1975]

WAW V6 will include many ankle biter type fixes, and a few larger issues. Here is a rough draft of what's coming up (old notes, some will be subject to change):

 

[sman1975]

OK, I'm starting to work on V6. Mostly looking at changes in previous post. Am putting off the "new units" part until later.

As we prepare for that, I'd like to reiterate the WAW model. Everything going in has to comply with this approach (if at all possible):




For a few of the roles, this approach might also be allowable:




The existing combat roles are below. Can always add a role if it makes sense:

Land:
- Melee
- Shock
- Indirect Fire
- Air Defense
- Mobile
- Recon
- SOF
- Medics

Air/Space:
- Bomber
- Fighter
- Special: will include the air carrier
- Drone


Sea:
- Naval Melee
- Naval Ranged
- Carrier
- Subs
- Special: Arsenal Ship is only one in this category so far


Missiles: Most of these will be variants of the existing Guided Missile unit, but with promotions to implement their specialties
- General
- Anti-Personnel
- Anti-Ship
- Anti-City



WMD: Will use the second chart (horizontal) that displays units through 5 columns of the tech tree, with 1 weapon per column - scale of damage will vary between 1-5
- Level 1
- Level 2
- Level 3
- Level 4
- Level 5


I'm not trying to fill every box on a given combat role chart. Just the opposite, I'd prefer to leave something out if there isn't a compelling historical capability to place it in. OTOH, I don't want to miss an historical capabilities either. One of the great things (IMO) about WAW is that it's pretty easy to just start the mod and play - not a lot of homework required. Most players can intuitively work through all the things it adds without too much pain.