I read the first post even before your reply dude...
But the truth is... This whole thread about "glorious me was called fanboi" idea feels a bit (just a tiny bit) egocentric or narcissistic... Sure, you go on about game immersion and such, but post starts and ends with you being called that...
Just my 2 cents, I don't give a rats a** whether you care about my opinion or not
But, as its new year, and I'm into all that X-mas mood...
There - you are not a fanboi... Case closed, move on people, nothing to see here
Clearly a fanboi, but a rational, well-reasoned bordering on being objective .. not too shabby in the grand scheme of things
Clearly a fanboi, but a rational, well-reasoned bordering on being objective .. not too shabby in the grand scheme of things
..
You answered your question yourself.
And as a personal aside, I don't really care what people call me. I know it's the norm on the internet (and participate in the act myself from time to time too). What I don't care for is people telling others what they believe my position is (wrongly).
Dale, I can't believe I read what I read in the OP from you.
You BRUSHED OVER the GUI. YOU did that
What do you think allowed for the control of the stacks in civ IV? What kept SoD from being an unplayable mess? What do ALL games need to be even remotely good? Solid controls. FWIW, Civ IV's were pretty bad. You could make it "think" you're pressing alt when not, it was a nightmare trying to control-select stacks when different unit classes were on the same tile (like sea + ground), but at the end of the day the UI was still vastly superior to the garbage we have in civ V.
Let's look at a straight "how many key presses/clicks does this take" for civ IV and V:
1. Queue up 5 units in a city (Civ V can't loop units at all trollololol)
- Civ IV: Click on the city, hold down shift, click on unit 5 times. Press escape and/or click off city.
- Civ V: Click on city. Click on city again so that you are inside the city screen and not just on a 1-queue selection. Press escape because initial drop box blocks your view still. Click show queue. Click add to queue. Click on the unit 5 times. Press escape to get out of "add to queue" menu. Press escape again to get out of the city.
Civ IV: 8 actions
Civ V: 12 actions
2. Queue a building in multiple cities at the same time to be the next thing built:
Civ IV: Click on city, hold shift, click on building, press escape or click off city. Add 1 action (shift and click on another city) per city. So for a 6 city empire, 9 actions.
Civ V: Click on city, click on it again, escape, show queue, add to queue, escape. Add every action again for each city you do this, so for a 6 city empire, 36 actions (!).
The joke part here is that if you contol-click cities in IV, you can select all 6 cities at once potentially giving you a 4 action setup vs a 36 action setup.
3. Make a game-long resource trade:
Civ IV: You make the trade and it stays until something forcibly expires it.
Civ V: You have to renew the trade every 30 turns. In a 300 turn game where you're trading for at least 200+, add a factor of 7 actions for each resource trade. If you want to be a bit less biased toward civ IV, you can of course realize that many deals in IV aren't permanent.
However, even if you HALVE the factor of 7 in civ V, you're still talking about dozens fewer actions in IV than V.
4. Moving 15 units:
Civ IV: 2 actions: alt-click and right click.
Civ V: 30 actions, one to select and move each unit. More if the game lags your commands and you have to repeat them.
Granted, this isn't fair to V, because of the 1upt rule. However, given that this is a KNOWN and SIGNIFICANT slow-down factor in the game, WHY the @#%$@#%@#%$@#%$ did firaxis think it is A GOOD EXCELLENT UBERSMART IDEA to leave us with city build instructions that take somewhere between 50% to 400%+ the inputs? Just saying.
This kind of crap goes on and on and on. Across a game lasting 100's of turns, we are talking about THOUSANDS of unnecessary inputs compared to a well-designed UI in EACH GAME.
So, then do the commands at least do as instructed?
NO, THE COMMANDS DO NOT DO AS INSTRUCTED
I have video evidence of a trebuchet showing "ranged attack" while set up with a valid, visible target instead move. If I give orders quickly, the game will move a unit different from the one that is selected. Many hotkeys that would expedite the game simply DONT EXIST.
Do I want this game to be more like civ IV specifically? No. Do I and any other person in the world with a minutiae of sense want the game's CONTROLS to function reasonably well and be well designed? Yes. I want this game to resemble a GOOD game. And no, Dale, you can NEVER, EVER make this into a good game unless and only unless the game stops requiring people to make 1000's of extra inputs whether or not they realize it. That someone of your caliper brushed over the GUI is shameful. That Firaxis ignored it before release and continues to ignore it is a disgrace.
This issue screams of everything that is wrong in game design with the entire series. The game's units don't even control properly, and you're worried about "maths"?! Do you seriously believe that 1000-2000 or more unnecessary actions per game don't cut into "immersion"? For someone like me, who can do actions in a half second in many cases, that's up to/over 16 minutes. For someone who takes, say, 2 seconds to complete an action on average, they're doing the functional equivalent of staring at a wall, or pounding their knuckles into their desk instead of playing for over an hour in EVERY SINGLE GAME. Think about that. An hour of staring at nothing. You want to kill immersion? Penalize every single casual player who wants to play the game by an HOUR OR MORE every single time they sit down to play civ V. Then let them pick between civ V and a game that doesn't require that many unnecessary actions. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I wonder which game will seem more immersive?!
And you know what the sad, REALLY sad part of this is? I haven't discussed all of the requirements of unnecessary actions in a civ V game. That estimation of 1000-2000 unnecessary actions/game is likely a GROSS underestimation of what the game would require if players had streamlined controls, hotkey options, etc. Nevermind that the game could patch the discipline bonus but somehow not catch that the SP tree still reflects the old value, or that units don't even move properly given a shown command 100% of the time.
I'm not saying civ IV was a GREAT game about this either, although it is beyond argument that when it comes to "unnecessary actions" being forced on a player, it IS superior. No, I am merely saying that the controls are a step BACK from a game that wasn't exactly the best to begin with in that regard. You want math screwups in civ IV? Try the apostolic palace or vassal mechanics on for size. You want to kill immersion? Have the game lie to you about the actual net diplo with an AI with no indication that it's not really the value being displayed other than sheer experience.
But nothing, NOTHING right now comes even CLOSE to hurting civ V as a game experience more than the speed at which it runs and its UI. If you want immersion, try allowing someone to get to the next important decision or big game event 500+ clicks sooner. Try that, I bet you'll find some immersion when players aren't being forced to fight the UI rather than the AI or other players.
In conclusion: I know as well as anyone your real stance and that you're no "fanboi", but for the love of civ and all that is unholy, please please PLEASE don't brush over the #1 greatest (and long-running) flaw in the entire civilization franchise. Controls are gameplay 101. Not a single PC main-series civ release has EVER gotten them right...but civ V is indisputably and by far the worst excuse for a UI I've ever seen in the series. I will NOT stop harping on this until someone with some power grows some sense on this matter. There is NOTHING the game has as a higher priority.
Not adding civ
Not nerfing exploits.
Not adjusting the tech tree
Not messing with diplo
Okay, addressing game crashes is a bit higher although they're pretty rare now.
I hate calling you out Dale, but realize I'm not calling you out alone. I'm calling out every single person who has over the years accepted paint-dry watching instead of playing civ as "standard", regardless of whether they're simply a player, beta tester, or actual employee.
The extra clicks are subtle. They sneak up on you. People playing slowly probably don't realize just how often (IE every turn after the opening turns) they're being hammered by the UI, not the AI. But they're there. They waste somewhere from 8 minutes to hours per game. They CANT be that hard to fix compared to AI programming, anti-crash, or any # of things already done.
But firaxis won't touch them. Not with known issues since vanilla civ IV, not now so far. Beta tester or not, the long-standing GUI disgrace that is part of every civ game is very frustrating. I can't let anyone, not even a celebrated and GREAT modder who has done so much for the community, get away with doing that so easily w/o a counter-argument
Dale, I can't believe I read what I read in the OP from you.
You BRUSHED OVER the GUI. YOU did that
What do you think allowed for the control of the stacks in civ IV? What kept SoD from being an unplayable mess? What do ALL games need to be even remotely good? Solid controls. FWIW, Civ IV's were pretty bad. You could make it "think" you're pressing alt when not, it was a nightmare trying to control-select stacks when different unit classes were on the same tile (like sea + ground), but at the end of the day the UI was still vastly superior to the garbage we have in civ V.
Let's look at a straight "how many key presses/clicks does this take" for civ IV and V:
1. Queue up 5 units in a city (Civ V can't loop units at all trollololol)
- Civ IV: Click on the city, hold down shift, click on unit 5 times. Press escape and/or click off city.
- Civ V: Click on city. Click on city again so that you are inside the city screen and not just on a 1-queue selection. Press escape because initial drop box blocks your view still. Click show queue. Click add to queue. Click on the unit 5 times. Press escape to get out of "add to queue" menu. Press escape again to get out of the city.
Civ IV: 8 actions
Civ V: 12 actions
2. Queue a building in multiple cities at the same time to be the next thing built:
Civ IV: Click on city, hold shift, click on building, press escape or click off city. Add 1 action (shift and click on another city) per city. So for a 6 city empire, 9 actions.
Civ V: Click on city, click on it again, escape, show queue, add to queue, escape. Add every action again for each city you do this, so for a 6 city empire, 36 actions (!).
The joke part here is that if you contol-click cities in IV, you can select all 6 cities at once potentially giving you a 4 action setup vs a 36 action setup.
3. Make a game-long resource trade:
Civ IV: You make the trade and it stays until something forcibly expires it.
Civ V: You have to renew the trade every 30 turns. In a 300 turn game where you're trading for at least 200+, add a factor of 7 actions for each resource trade. If you want to be a bit less biased toward civ IV, you can of course realize that many deals in IV aren't permanent.
However, even if you HALVE the factor of 7 in civ V, you're still talking about dozens fewer actions in IV than V.
4. Moving 15 units:
Civ IV: 2 actions: alt-click and right click.
Civ V: 30 actions, one to select and move each unit. More if the game lags your commands and you have to repeat them.
Granted, this isn't fair to V, because of the 1upt rule. However, given that this is a KNOWN and SIGNIFICANT slow-down factor in the game, WHY the @#%$@#%@#%$@#%$ did firaxis think it is A GOOD EXCELLENT UBERSMART IDEA to leave us with city build instructions that take somewhere between 50% to 400%+ the inputs? Just saying.
This kind of crap goes on and on and on. Across a game lasting 100's of turns, we are talking about THOUSANDS of unnecessary inputs compared to a well-designed UI in EACH GAME.
So, then do the commands at least do as instructed?
NO, THE COMMANDS DO NOT DO AS INSTRUCTED
I have video evidence of a trebuchet showing "ranged attack" while set up with a valid, visible target instead move. If I give orders quickly, the game will move a unit different from the one that is selected. Many hotkeys that would expedite the game simply DONT EXIST.
Do I want this game to be more like civ IV specifically? No. Do I and any other person in the world with a minutiae of sense want the game's CONTROLS to function reasonably well and be well designed? Yes. I want this game to resemble a GOOD game. And no, Dale, you can NEVER, EVER make this into a good game unless and only unless the game stops requiring people to make 1000's of extra inputs whether or not they realize it. That someone of your caliper brushed over the GUI is shameful. That Firaxis ignored it before release and continues to ignore it is a disgrace.
This issue screams of everything that is wrong in game design with the entire series. The game's units don't even control properly, and you're worried about "maths"?! Do you seriously believe that 1000-2000 or more unnecessary actions per game don't cut into "immersion"? For someone like me, who can do actions in a half second in many cases, that's up to/over 16 minutes. For someone who takes, say, 2 seconds to complete an action on average, they're doing the functional equivalent of staring at a wall, or pounding their knuckles into their desk instead of playing for over an hour in EVERY SINGLE GAME. Think about that. An hour of staring at nothing. You want to kill immersion? Penalize every single casual player who wants to play the game by an HOUR OR MORE every single time they sit down to play civ V. Then let them pick between civ V and a game that doesn't require that many unnecessary actions. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, I wonder which game will seem more immersive?!
And you know what the sad, REALLY sad part of this is? I haven't discussed all of the requirements of unnecessary actions in a civ V game. That estimation of 1000-2000 unnecessary actions/game is likely a GROSS underestimation of what the game would require if players had streamlined controls, hotkey options, etc. Nevermind that the game could patch the discipline bonus but somehow not catch that the SP tree still reflects the old value, or that units don't even move properly given a shown command 100% of the time.
I'm not saying civ IV was a GREAT game about this either, although it is beyond argument that when it comes to "unnecessary actions" being forced on a player, it IS superior. No, I am merely saying that the controls are a step BACK from a game that wasn't exactly the best to begin with in that regard. You want math screwups in civ IV? Try the apostolic palace or vassal mechanics on for size. You want to kill immersion? Have the game lie to you about the actual net diplo with an AI with no indication that it's not really the value being displayed other than sheer experience.
But nothing, NOTHING right now comes even CLOSE to hurting civ V as a game experience more than the speed at which it runs and its UI. If you want immersion, try allowing someone to get to the next important decision or big game event 500+ clicks sooner. Try that, I bet you'll find some immersion when players aren't being forced to fight the UI rather than the AI or other players.
In conclusion: I know as well as anyone your real stance and that you're no "fanboi", but for the love of civ and all that is unholy, please please PLEASE don't brush over the #1 greatest (and long-running) flaw in the entire civilization franchise. Controls are gameplay 101. Not a single PC main-series civ release has EVER gotten them right...but civ V is indisputably and by far the worst excuse for a UI I've ever seen in the series. I will NOT stop harping on this until someone with some power grows some sense on this matter. There is NOTHING the game has as a higher priority.
Not adding civ
Not nerfing exploits.
Not adjusting the tech tree
Not messing with diplo
Okay, addressing game crashes is a bit higher although they're pretty rare now.
I hate calling you out Dale, but realize I'm not calling you out alone. I'm calling out every single person who has over the years accepted paint-dry watching instead of playing civ as "standard", regardless of whether they're simply a player, beta tester, or actual employee.
The extra clicks are subtle. They sneak up on you. People playing slowly probably don't realize just how often (IE every turn after the opening turns) they're being hammered by the UI, not the AI. But they're there. They waste somewhere from 8 minutes to hours per game. They CANT be that hard to fix compared to AI programming, anti-crash, or any # of things already done.
But firaxis won't touch them. Not with known issues since vanilla civ IV, not now so far. Beta tester or not, the long-standing GUI disgrace that is part of every civ game is very frustrating. I can't let anyone, not even a celebrated and GREAT modder who has done so much for the community, get away with doing that so easily w/o a counter-argument
