Social Policy Elimination Thread

[Talcove]

+1 and -3 with this many policies starting on 20? This is going to take a freaking age...

Exactly, so let's just say Rationalism wins, and call it a night.

 

[Sake]

+1 and -3 with this many policies starting on 20? This is going to take a freaking age...

I could change it to +1/-4 too. That would give one vote more power, but it would make thread go faster.

 

[arand86]

I could change it to +1/-4 too. That would give one vote more power, but it would make thread go faster.

Lets make the change

 

[redwings1340]

I could change it to +1/-4 too. That would give one vote more power, but it would make thread go faster.

I think that gives downvotes way too much power comparatively. If you're doing that, why even have upvotes at all other than for the rationale? I personally like +2/-4 because I think upvotes should matter, but that doesn't actually speed up the thread. Doing anything higher than that would just be weird.

 

[Sake]

I think that gives downvotes way too much power comparatively. If you're doing that, why even have upvotes at all other than for the rationale? I personally like +2/-4 because I think upvotes should matter, but that doesn't actually speed up the thread. Doing anything higher than that would just be weird.

Would +2/-4 even make a difference, since point difference would still be 2? I kinda agree that +1/-4 would give one downvote too much power. Starting at 10 could be an option but i didn't like it, since one unit could die so quickly before anyone can upvote on it.

On the other hand, list has 61 policies (7 policies per tree * 9 trees). UU thread had 58 units, so its not THAT bad, especially since UU thread started with +1/-2.

 

[redwings1340]

Would +2/-4 even make a difference, since point difference would still be 2? I kinda agree that +1/-4 would give one downvote too much power. Starting at 10 could be an option but i didn't like it, since one unit could die so quickly before anyone can upvote on it.

On the other hand, list has 61 policies (7 policies per tree * 9 trees). UU thread had 58 units, so its not THAT bad, especially since UU thread started with +1/-2.

It wouldn't make a difference in length of the thread, but it makes upvotes count more (2 upvotes to counter a downvote as opposed to 3). The best of both worlds (fast and upvotes having strength) would be +3/-6, but then votes would get ridiculously powerful and a few sneak votes could still kill a civ before anyone gets a chance to have a counterargument.

 

[sendos]

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21 -
Tradition - Aristocracy - 20
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 21
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 20
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 20
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 20
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 20
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22 a big buff to CV's. Beats that pathetic pre-patch policy that reduced culture cost for next SP by 10%.
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16 Reveals hidden sites and purchase Great Admirals...that's all!?
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 20
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 14
Exploration - Navigation School - 17
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 20
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23-
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17

Forgot to add 1 more downvote. +1, -4 from here on.

 

[Optional]

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21 -
Tradition - Aristocracy - 20
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 21
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 20
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 20
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 20
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 16 +2 gold for a trade route with a CS; can still better trade with real civs then.
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 20
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 14
Exploration - Navigation School - 17
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 21 10% extra science when + unlocking Porcelain Tower; lots of science.
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23-
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17

 

[Vitruvius]

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21
Tradition - Aristocracy - 17 I don't build a lot of wonders, and if I do I rush with engineers. -1 happiness for 10 citizens isn't much..
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 21
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 20
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 20
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 21 Too good. Free food/happiness/culture/faith without doing anything. Bigger the map the better.
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 16
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 20
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 14
Exploration - Navigation School - 17
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 21
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17

 

[arand86]

Maybe if we cut all points by 5?

 

[Beaver79]

Patronage - Consulates - 21 Too good. Free food/happiness/culture/faith without doing anything. Bigger the map the better.

They nerfed pledge to protect to 5 influence now, so you have to give them gold or whatever to get them to friends now. Otherwise I'd agree with you.

 

[Dgodus]

Now I've got a problem. I really dislike Oligarchy (I generally don't fight defensively and when the gold matters early in the game I don't have lots of cities to hid a unit in to save the maintenance cost. BUT that's the last policy I take in tradition so really it's 4x free aqueducts and ability to purchase GE's.

So are votes being made in a vacuum? Or in context that to be able to finish a tree you have to take a policy (as I like everything else in tradition basically oligarchy = finisher. On the flip side I do like the finisher in honor, but there is too much chaff in the whole tree); heck even as prerequisites some policies are made better (I like legalism better because of what it opens up for my next selection).

Kind of difficult to separate policies as they're so interconnected with each other unlike UA'e, UU's, etc.

(apologies if I've mucked up the names of policies with what it does, I never read the names o what I'm selecting, as well, the names don't actually matter)

 

[Optional]

Now I've got a problem. I really dislike Oligarchy (I generally don't fight defensively and when the gold matters early in the game I don't have lots of cities to hid a unit in to save the maintenance cost. BUT that's the last policy I take in tradition so really it's 4x free aqueducts and ability to purchase GE's.

I would call that the finisher (+15% growth in your first 4 cities is also part of it, by the way), and the finishers are separately mentioned in this thread, so I don't see the problem. If you find Oligarchy good because you get the finisher through it, then surely your vote should go to the finisher?

I find openers slightly more problematic in this way, in the sense that they unlock wonders. They don't grant you a wonder, but if you can get one through it, it can be great.

 

[redwings1340]

Now I've got a problem. I really dislike Oligarchy (I generally don't fight defensively and when the gold matters early in the game I don't have lots of cities to hid a unit in to save the maintenance cost. BUT that's the last policy I take in tradition so really it's 4x free aqueducts and ability to purchase GE's.

So are votes being made in a vacuum? Or in context that to be able to finish a tree you have to take a policy (as I like everything else in tradition basically oligarchy = finisher. On the flip side I do like the finisher in honor, but there is too much chaff in the whole tree); heck even as prerequisites some policies are made better (I like legalism better because of what it opens up for my next selection).

Kind of difficult to separate policies as they're so interconnected with each other unlike UA'e, UU's, etc.

(apologies if I've mucked up the names of policies with what it does, I never read the names o what I'm selecting, as well, the names don't actually matter)

I voted based in a vacuum, so I would vote down policies I go "Ugh, I really have to take this one to unlock the next??". I got a new appreciation for oligarchy though after I tried liberty once on deity and my cities were so weak against these hordes. It's bad when it's not used, but I think it might be too strong when it is used.

 

[jlim201]

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21
Tradition - Aristocracy - 17 I don't build a lot of wonders, and if I do I rush with engineers. -1 happiness for 10 citizens isn't much..
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 21
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 21- Helps me tons with upgrading that army. Saves you tons of gold, however I rarely go for it because of its location.
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 16- Seriously? No culture even indirectly for a early game policy opener? Trad has +3 cap, Lib has +1 per city, Honor is per barb, Patron makes it easier to get Culture CS, Aesthesics= more GWAMs= more culture.
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 21 Too good. Free food/happiness/culture/faith without doing anything. Bigger the map the better.
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 16
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 20
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 14
Exploration - Navigation School - 17
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 21
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17

Ranking of Trees (in my opinion)

Rationalism
Tradition
Freedom
Order
Aesthesics
Patronage
Liberty
Commerce
Honour
Autocracy
Exploration
Piety

 

[BUDISMYBUDDY]

This is gonna take a really long time

 

[lokithepunishr]

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21
Tradition - Aristocracy - 17
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 21
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 21
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 16
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 21
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 16
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 21 - +3 production in all coastal cities is really powerful if you have a lot of them.
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 14
Exploration - Navigation School - 14 - Great Admirals are lame
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 21
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17

 

[Aenthin]

My first vote went unnoticed. ._.

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21
Tradition - Aristocracy - 17
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 22
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 21
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 16
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 21
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 16
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 21 - +3 production in all coastal cities is really powerful if you have a lot of them.
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 11
Exploration - Navigation School - 14 - Great Admirals are lame
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 21
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17

 

[Quineloe]

and to be fair, you should put Navigational school down to 5 and naval tradition back up to 20 because the three people who downvoted Tradition thought they were downvoting admirals, not happiness from ocean buildings.



Policy Branch:
Exploration
Prerequisite Era:
Medieval Era
Naval Tradition
Game Info:
Naval Tradition
+1 happiness Happiness for each Harbor, Seaport, or Lighthouse



Policy Branch:
Exploration
Prerequisite Era:
Medieval Era
Required Policies:
Navigation School
Game Info:
Navigation School
A Great Admiral appears. +2 moves Movement for all Great Admirals. Great Admirals are earned 50% faster.


That's what you get for not including the information in the first post

 

[Sake]

and to be fair, you should put Navigational school down to 5 and naval tradition back up to 20 because the three people who downvoted Tradition thought they were downvoting admirals, not happiness from ocean buildings.



Policy Branch:
Exploration
Prerequisite Era:
Medieval Era
Naval Tradition
Game Info:
Naval Tradition
+1 happiness Happiness for each Harbor, Seaport, or Lighthouse



Policy Branch:
Exploration
Prerequisite Era:
Medieval Era
Required Policies:
Navigation School
Game Info:
Navigation School
A Great Admiral appears. +2 moves Movement for all Great Admirals. Great Admirals are earned 50% faster.


That's what you get for not including the information in the first post

Whoops, you're right, i looked at wrong thing when i voted first and the others did the same, it's awkward, but oh well, it happens. This should be correct list:

Tradition - Opener - 20
Tradition - Finisher - 21
Tradition - Aristocracy - 17
Tradition - Landed Elite - 20
Tradition - Legalism - 21
Tradition - Monarchy - 21
Tradition - Oligarchy - 20
Liberty - Opener - 17
Liberty - Finisher - 20
Liberty - Citizenship - 20
Liberty - Collective Rule - 20
Liberty - Meritocracy - 20
Liberty - Representation - 20
Liberty - Republic - 20
Honor - Opener - 22
Honor - Finisher - 20
Honor - Discipline - 20
Honor - Military Caste - 17
Honor - Military Tradition - 20
Honor - Professional Army - 21
Honor - Warrior Code - 20
Piety - Opener - 16
Piety - Finisher - 20
Piety - Mandate of Heaven - 20
Piety - Organized Religion - 20
Piety - Reformation - 17
Piety - Religious Tolerance - 20
Piety - Theocracy - 17
Patronage - Opener - 20
Patronage - Finisher - 20
Patronage - Consulates - 21
Patronage - Cultural Diplomacy - 20
Patronage - Merchant Confederacy - 16
Patronage - Philanthropy - 20
Patronage - Scholasticism - 21
Aesthetics - Opener - 20
Aesthetics - Finisher - 20
Aesthetics - Artistic Genius - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Centers - 20
Aesthetics - Cultural Exchange - 22
Aesthetics - Fine Arts - 20
Aesthetics - Flourishing of the Arts - 20
Commerce - Opener - 17
Commerce - Finisher - 20
Commerce - Entrepreneurship - 20
Commerce - Mercantilism - 21
Commerce - Mercenary Army - 14
Commerce - Protectionism - 21
Commerce - Wagon Trains - 17
Exploration - Opener - 20
Exploration - Finisher - 16
Exploration - Maritime Infrastructure - 21 -
Exploration - Merchant Navy - 20
Exploration - Naval Tradition - 20
Exploration - Navigation School - 5
Exploration - Treasure Fleets - 20
Rationalism - Opener - 21
Rationalism - Finisher - 20
Rationalism - Free Thought - 20
Rationalism - Humanism - 21
Rationalism - Scientific Revolution - 20
Rationalism - Secularism - 23
Rationalism - Sovereignty - 17