Spawn system

[Thunderbrd]

Well... and before I bring this up again I want to say I realize this is probably frustrating to those who've done all this amazing work on the current spawning mechanisms of which I am currently in awe of...

But this takes us back to having the map initially establish spawn point terrain improvements, spawn batteries as it were, that spit out their supported 'spawn creature' rather than functioning off of resource points as we currently do.

This wouldn't mean we would need to completely rewrite everything but I do think that creatures could then have missions that will allow them to sacrifice themselves to generate new spawn points when they find themselves on their 'perfect habitat'. For carnivores, this could be a space away from their perfect prey's spawning point. It could be as simple as, say, for deer, they would be inclined to plant a spawn point as long as they are in a forest and over 5 spaces away from any other deer spawn point.

Anyhow, players could 'ravage' spawn points to eliminate certain species, allow spawn points to keep access to species that they wish to repeatedly hunt, and would have to replace them entirely if they wish to develop that space for a city's use.

Such a concept could become quite biological. A prey's spawning could be regular while a predator's spawning might be based on spitting out one creature for every 3 prey devoured times the amount of that predator existing on the map. We could play with numbers until we get some really neat frequency effects.

And that would only be possible by establishing these ideas we've been discussing about splitting up barbarian types into new groupings and AIs.

 

[robomani]

If you want I know that in Rife there is animal unit that spawn other unit when they win (I think it is the lion that have something like 35% chance to spawn a new lion unit when they win a combat)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

Some ideas for spawn points ...

Outback (Desert or Scrub)
- Kangaroo
- Emu (once made)
- Wild Boar

Serengeti (Plain or Savanna)
- Elephant
- Rhino
- Hippo
- Giraffe
- Water Buffalo
- Zebra
- Aardvark
- Ratel
- Ostrich
- Panther
- Cheetah
- Lion
- Pack of Lions
- Hyena
- Vulture

Arabia (Desert or Dunes)
- Gemsbok
- Camel
- Vulture
- Cobra
- Ibex
- Onager

Great Plains (Grassland or Plains)
- Bison
- Deer
- Wolf

Euasian Steppes (Grassland or Plains)
- Horse
- Camel
- Deer
- Wolf

Europe (Forest)
- Auroch
- Wolf
- Bear
- Deer

Amazon (Rainforest)
- Jaguar
- Tapir

Congo (Rainforest)
- Gorilla
- Panther
- Bongo
- Okapi
- Mandrill
- Elephant

Pampas (Plains or Savanna)
- Rhea (need to make)
- Anteater (need to make)

India (Jungle or Scrub)
- Elephant
- Bengal Tiger
- Panther
- Bear
- Cobra
- Deer

Southeast Asia (Jungle)
- Cassowary
- Elephant
- Orangutan
- Komodo Dragon
- Bengal Tiger
- Water Bufffalo

Canada (Pine Forest)
- Moose
- Caribou
- Deer
- Wolf
- Beaver
- Wolverine
- Bear
- Wild Boar

China (Bamboo)
- Panda
- Deer
- Siberian Tiger
- Wolf

Arctic (Tundra, Permafrost or Ice)
- Polar Bear
- Musk Ox
- Caribou
- Wolf

Antarctica (Tundra, Permafrost or Ice)
- Penguin

 

[EldrinFal]

Well... and before I bring this up again I want to say I realize this is probably frustrating to those who've done all this amazing work on the current spawning mechanisms of which I am currently in awe of...

But this takes us back to having the map initially establish spawn point terrain improvements, spawn batteries as it were, that spit out their supported 'spawn creature' rather than functioning off of resource points as we currently do.

This wouldn't mean we would need to completely rewrite everything but I do think that creatures could then have missions that will allow them to sacrifice themselves to generate new spawn points when they find themselves on their 'perfect habitat'. For carnivores, this could be a space away from their perfect prey's spawning point. It could be as simple as, say, for deer, they would be inclined to plant a spawn point as long as they are in a forest and over 5 spaces away from any other deer spawn point.

Anyhow, players could 'ravage' spawn points to eliminate certain species, allow spawn points to keep access to species that they wish to repeatedly hunt, and would have to replace them entirely if they wish to develop that space for a city's use.

Such a concept could become quite biological. A prey's spawning could be regular while a predator's spawning might be based on spitting out one creature for every 3 prey devoured times the amount of that predator existing on the map. We could play with numbers until we get some really neat frequency effects.

And that would only be possible by establishing these ideas we've been discussing about splitting up barbarian types into new groupings and AIs.

I guess you didn't read all the threads when you returned.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=377892&page=180

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=440430

 

[AIAndy]

Well, from a mechanic stand point to have such spawn points we would need:

• Improvements as source for spawn rules (easy change)
• An Improvement for every kind of spawn point you want with graphics
• Build actions for the spawn point improvements given to the animals that consume the unit
• Animal unit AIs that build them now and then

So most of the mechanics for that are already there and also the possibility of removal of those spawn points by razing the improvement.
The main job will be for Hydro to define all the improvements and have graphics for them and for Koshling to write the unit AIs.

The restrictions on where the improvement can be built define the "perfect habitat".
I'll do the change to allow improvements as spawn source.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The main job will be for Hydro to define all the improvements and have graphics for them and for Koshling to write the unit AIs.

What exactly do you need me to do?

 

[AIAndy]

What exactly do you need me to do?

Well, if I got it correctly the idea was to have dens, nests and similar structures or Outback, Serengeti and the like as the main source of animal spawning (at least for some animals).
Those would be modelled as improvements and would now and then be built by an animal unit, sacrificing itself.
There would then be extra spawning rules from those improvements with an increased spawning chance compared to normal terrain.

That means the player has the chance to reduce animal spawning by destroying the lairs or leave them be to get more animals to hunt.

If we go with that, then someone needs to find graphical representations for the lairs and add them as improvements to the game.

 

[Koshling]

Well, if I got it correctly the idea was to have dens, nests and similar structures or Outback, Serengeti and the like as the main source of animal spawning (at least for some animals).
Those would be modelled as improvements and would now and then be built by an animal unit, sacrificing itself.
There would then be extra spawning rules from those improvements with an increased spawning chance compared to normal terrain.

That means the player has the chance to reduce animal spawning by destroying the lairs or leave them be to get more animals to hunt.

If we go with that, then someone needs to find graphical representations for the lairs and add them as improvements to the game.

Is this really a good return on the effort given everything else we have to d?

 

[AIAndy]

Is this really a good return on the effort given everything else we have to d?

Hmm, I am not sure.
It could result in some interesting dynamics. Like if applied to Neanderthals by having them plant a Neanderthal settlement that you could plunder for gold (and to have less Neanderthals spawning).
Or getting some specific ecosystems depending on the lairs that are around. Maybe you could use your subdued animals to create a lair, reintroduce them into the wild (same ability as the wild animals then use) and influence the animal ecosystem that way or keep some wildlife reservats around when your cultural borders have spread a lot and there is not a lot of spawning from the natural terrain any more.

But in the end that has to be decided if it is worth it by those who would do most of the graphics/AI work.

 

[Koshling]

Hmm, I am not sure.
It could result in some interesting dynamics. Like if applied to Neanderthals by having them plant a Neanderthal settlement that you could plunder for gold (and to have less Neanderthals spawning).
Or getting some specific ecosystems depending on the lairs that are around. Maybe you could use your subdued animals to create a lair, reintroduce them into the wild (same ability as the wild animals then use) and influence the animal ecosystem that way or keep some wildlife reservats around when your cultural borders have spread a lot and there is not a lot of spawning from the natural terrain any more.

But in the end that has to be decided if it is worth it by those who would do most of the graphics/AI work.

It could have benefits but it's a lot of work, and we have been polishing the prehistoric era (which is when it most matters) for some time. It's really time we spent more of our efforts a bit deeper into the game IMO.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

It could have benefits but it's a lot of work, and we have been polishing the prehistoric era (which is when it most matters) for some time. It's really time we spent more of our efforts a bit deeper into the game IMO.

I agree. We need to move on to later eras. This is an idea we can come back to.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well if you want caves, there were caves in Dune Wars (see upper right corner). This graphic might work as a new terrain feature. Not just for animals but for other buildings such a cave exploration, cave dwelling or collecting bat guano.

 

[Thunderbrd]

AIAndy listed off a lot of the vision that such changes lead to. Systems where humanity can, down the road, use their captured animals to create new animal spawn points, a concept that could support more complex zoos and such as well which means we are polishing later eras as we go here too.

I don't think it would be the sort of thing that would take us a LOT of time... No problem in reusing most graphics over and over (the caves above would apply for most I think) - a mouseover reveals what the improvement is anyhow. Hydro... is it possible to use some of the animal herd resource graphics for those animal spawn points?

Now, since its Koshling raising concerns about the workload, I suspect its a matter of the ai routines being difficult to program... and I can understand THAT. But I mean, that's a fairly simple routine that would be checked just before the animal would, say, move (and only if not considering an attack in so doing). Check 1: Is the animal currently standing on perfect terrain for that animal? IF yes, then: Is the animal within an amt of spaces equal to the mapsize value to another improvement of that animal's type? IF yes, ignore the routine and move on, IF no, continue to a random check, say 25% chance to decide to push the mission to sacrifice itself and plant the improvement.

Most of these kinds of checks have corresponding examples elsewhere... I could do it myself but would be fairly confused on how when it came to checking for the right sort of building within the proper range... My point is, it wouldn't be tooooooo difficult to include in the animal ai routines, would it?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't think it would be the sort of thing that would take us a LOT of time... No problem in reusing most graphics over and over (the caves above would apply for most I think) - a mouseover reveals what the improvement is anyhow. Hydro... is it possible to use some of the animal herd resource graphics for those animal spawn points?

If you are going tht road why not just use the existing animal resources?

 

[Koshling]

If you are going tht road why not just use the existing animal resources?

Because you don't want to provide the resource just because there is a spawn point (or we're back to exactly where we started with animals only spawning from resources and so on!). If you mean you could use the existing resource GRAPHIC then also yuck - there would be no visual differentiation betwen a resource (that you want to improve) and a spawn-point, which has no value apart from knowing it's somewhere that might produce a spawn.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Because you don't want to provide the resource just because there is a spawn point (or we're back to exactly where we started with animals only spawning from resources and so on!). If you mean you could use the existing resource GRAPHIC then also yuck - there would be no visual differentiation betwen a resource (that you want to improve) and a spawn-point, which has no value apart from knowing it's somewhere that might produce a spawn.

How about this. We have a new feature called the "Watering Hole". It looks and works just like an oasis. Animals spawn from the watering hole but since they look the same you cannot tell what type of animals will spawn from it. Note that the real oasis can be used for desert animals.

Good idea? Bad idea? What do you think?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you are going for this then remember it, the spawn point, has to be an improvement not a feature. Unless you want to duplicate all features ... maybe I don't want to mention that .. more work for Koshling, AIAndy or me.

 

[AIAndy]

If you are going for this then remember it, the spawn point, has to be an improvement not a feature. Unless you want to duplicate all features ... maybe I don't want to mention that .. more work for Koshling, AIAndy or me.

Not that hard to add a tag for improvements as spawning source. The code will be quite similar to what there already is.
So I'll add that if you want it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I see why you wouldn't want to make the same animal spawning point improvement graphic and resource graphic the same thing.

But I can see an interrelation between the two... perhaps animals that have a correlating 'resource' feature can get an edge up on the competition in a way. Most of those animals are herbivores that found the basis of an ecology anyhow... so perhaps we should make those resources spawn points for those animals ALSO (the spawn points that CAN'T be eliminated by razing...) We've been saying that the prey would need to largely outnumber the predators anyhow.

Along those lines of thinking, perhaps tribal villages should be spawn points for barbs (and in early eras neanderthals).

For spawn point improvements for those animals that also spawn off permanent resource herds, we could still use the graphics from the features - just not animated perhaps.

The ideas of watering holes and caves could form the graphics for most spawn improvements. It would only take a mouseover to see what KIND of spawning den it is. Perhaps smaller scale outcrops, thickets and nests would work well too. I think someone said we had a nest with eggs for a graphic didn't they? That'd work nicely for the bird and snake animals.


Now here's another thought... rather than making these spawn points for just the particular animal, we could use these to craft entire ecosystems. Make each spawn point type a 'system spawn' improvement. Thus you'd have American Southwest spawn improvements that spit out rattlesnakes, donkeys, wild horses, scorpions, rabbits, etc... and each of those types of animals have the mission to plant another American Southwest spawn improvement if they find another desert spot with barrel cactus, or something along those lines. (This is not to suggest we not split up predators and prey from the normal barbarian flag...)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

A couple of things that would be nice

• not terrain and not feature tags
• spawn location on river with perhaps a cannot move away from river function too. for all those crocs
• location on fresh water coast - probably the same thing as on river.

Edit thinking on it those last two are plots with "fresh water" present. Which would be enough for my needs.